Why are there more theists, in the world then atheists?

Originally posted by SamZED

How is that a mistake? Yes, we ARE being forced. We've been over this. A threat of eternal torture doesn't translate into a free choice. And what's more messed up - some people don't even get THAT kind of "choice" because they are born, raised and die always believing that their religion is the correct one and God never bothers to provide them with concrete evidence to enable them to change their faith.

.....It is a choice....

You are misunderstanding things up. Just because there are "CONSEQUENCES" for our choices doesn't mean we are "FORCED" to do them.

God gives you 2 choices: Him or Satan. These 2 choices each have 1 consequence: Heaven and Hell respectively!

You choose your choice, and that choice brings a consequence. It's pretty simple and clear.

It's a choice, no one is forcing you!

Satan CHOSE HELL! He wasn't forced!

You can CHOOSE HEAVEN, no one is forcing you to chose it!

Originally posted by SamZED

I am sorry, but the last part of your post make no sense to me. Our morals don't come from God, in fact it's the other way around. Religion incorporated some of the basic rules that we as social creatures developed long before Christianity ever existed. Some of them hold up today such as "don't kill/don't steal" which are just very sensible rules to live in a society. People have been doing that long before Jesus came along and you'd be hardpressed to prove otherwise. Other rules that religion incorporated are useless in this day and age like "don't creat idols" and were abandoned long ago. I know we won't agree on that point so let us agree to disagree. That doesn't really concern me if you think that God is the source of our morality. My problem with your position is of a different nature. And here it is:
You say that I am making a mistake by trying to hold God to some other moral standards when in reality it is all God's morals that we are living by. So what's my problem with this position? Well, the problem is - we actually don't live by his morals and thank God for that. Let me paint you a picture of what we'd be like if we did live by his morals. Slavery would be acceptable, genocide would be acceptable, we would be all for the idea of good people being tortured for eternity for the "crime" of not beleiving in God. [b]In fact it used to be the case and people tried to exercise that particular kind of God's "morality", it's called inquisition. Tahnkfully we abandoned that once we realized how crazy this is. What surprises me the most is that you also claim to live by God's morals, yet you actually don't. For one thing I doubt you're ok with owning people as property (correct me if I am wrong), you cannot even get yourself to outright say that anyone who doesn't believe in God no matter how good/kind/loving they are... deserve to be tortured forever. Those are God's rules. So why won't you say it? Is it possible that you actually feel how messed up this is? See, that's the thing. We absolutely do NOT live by God's morals today. We have our own set of morals that were developed over time and that work for us. In fact things that are considered horrible by today's standards are considered good in "God's moral code" and the bast majority of people including christians would say "No!" once asked if they consider those God-approved things to be moral or not. I have read the Bible. Only more reason for me to say that we clearly do not live by God's moral code. Some of the things Bible has incorporated are still relevant today, others are vile and were abandoned long ago.

So, again Josh, you can't have it both ways, we either live by God's moral code in which case things like slavery, torture of non-believers, genocide, stoning of children should be concidered moral... or we say that all of those things are NOT moral, in which case we are clearly not living by God's moral code, but instead live by our own that has improved significantly since the Bible was written. So which one is it? [/B]

No......

Before the records of religion the "concept of morality" was different!

Caveman didn't care to kill another caveman for food! Nor to have 8 women!

Our current moral codes are mainly derived from the Jewish/Christian/Islamic Religion.

This spreading of the "moral codes" happened by the Roman Empire specifically the Byzantine empire.

Originally posted by SamZED
You are debating yourself in a trap when you claim that we live by God's morals.
Because if we do, you'll have no trouble giving straight answers to the following questions. And I want straight answers. None of the "God knows better, he gets to say what's moral" etc. [b]If we live by his morals as you claim, then things that are moral to him must also be moral to us. Otherwise you're admitting that we do not live by his moral code. So answer me:
1. Do you think it is moral to torture children?
2. Do you think slavery is moral?
3. Do you think genocide is moral?
4. Do you think it is moral to toture otherwise GOOD people for all eternity for the crime of not believing in God?"
5. Do you think it is moral to stone children to death?

Those are the things that can be moral as per God's rules/Bible. So what are you answers to those questions? Straight answers please. Yes or no. [/B]

Morals were given by God to us. These are his rules to us. Doesn't mean he has to follow them!

E.G. If your parent tells you that you have to sleep at 9, it doesn't mean He has to do as well!

Answering your questions:

NONE is moral!

You know why? Because Religion goes against it! 😂

1. Is it moral to torture children? ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

2. Is slavery okay? "13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

3. Do you think Genocide is moral? God punished Cain for killing Abel!

4. Do you think it is moral to torture otherwise GOOD people for all eternity for the crime of not believing in God?" If a man does it no.

5. Do you think it is moral to stone children to death? Similar to number 1 and 3.

Again our current moral values were derived from Religion!

Now go back in time 2000 years to the Americas and ask the Aztecs or the Mayas this questions and see if they are equal!

Go and ask the Egyptians 3000 years ago these questions and see them make you a slave!!! 😂

Go ask the Christians living in America 150 years ago and see how many of them owned slaves... or the Christians from less than 1000 years ago raping and pillaging innocents.

Morals don't exclusively originate from religion, and if you need to live by a book or to be compelled by a fear of Hell/want of Heaven to be a good person then that puts your morality into question, not others'.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Go ask the Christians living in America 150 years ago and see how many of them owned slaves... or the Christians from less than 1000 years ago raping and pillaging innocents.

Morals don't exclusively originate from religion, and if you need to live by a book or to be compelled by a fear of Hell/want of Heaven to be a good person then that puts your morality into question, not others'.

Most of the morals do.

Simply look at the Egyptians, Mayans, Pre-Christian Romans, and Greeks.

No, humans enshrined the morals they had at the time in their religions. That is why the more primitive cultures' religions involved human sacrifices and what not. From a historical perspective, it's pretty clear that humans created religions and the various aspects of each civilisations' religions were a reflection of that civilisations' values, aspirations, prejudices, etc. Only those brainwashed by religion insist on those religions forming the bedrock of our personalities and cultures. It starts as the other way around, then we may get a circular loop out of that.

Most modern "morals" (respect for people regardless of gender, sexual orientation or race, lack of slavery, etc.) have evolved through social norms, not religion. Unjustified discrimination and slavery were perfectly fine with the religious in the past, but they aren't now. Secular social evolutions are responsible for that, not religion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, humans enshrined the morals they had at the time in their religions. That is why the more primitive cultures' religions involved human sacrifices and what not. From a historical perspective, it's pretty clear that humans created religions and the various aspects of each civilisations' religions were a reflection of that civilisations' values, aspirations, prejudices, etc. Only those brainwashed by religion insist on those religions forming the bedrock of our personalities and cultures. It starts as the other way around, then we may get a circular loop out of that.

Most modern "morals" (respect for people regardless of gender, sexual orientation or race, lack of slavery, etc.) have evolved through social norms, not religion. Unjustified discrimination and slavery were perfectly fine with the religious in the past, but they aren't now. Secular social evolutions are responsible for that, not religion.

If that was the case, then we would have manuscripts and books claiming what you are claiming.

However that's not the case, instead we have pillars, rocks, manuscripts, and books that claim it was the "Gods/God" that gave them such moral concepts.

Again you are trying to negate what's proven.

Our current laws/moral concepts/values were influenced and cemented by Jewish/Christian beliefs!

IT'S HISTORICALLY PROVEN!

Read about the Byzantine Empire and the spreading of Catholicism over the world.

Most of the countries based their laws and their constitutions on Jewish/Christian moral values!

Even if you are right. Let's say men "DID" implant their moral values into Religion.

Let's say that the Jewish/Christian moral codes are but the moral values of those Jewish/Christian people as oppose to the moral values given by religion to them.

Still, my point remains intact.

OUR CURRENT MORAL VALUES WERE CEMENTED AND INFLUENCED BY JEWISH/CHRISTIAN ONES!

That's been my point this whole time!

^^^^^^^

Even so, even if SunRazer is right and our moral codes weren't given by as Supreme Being but are instead human creations.

Then in such an aspect the concept of what is moral and what is immoral falls apart.

If OUR MORAL VALUES are our creation instead of a Supreme Being's...

Then it's safe that Our current moral values are but the ideas of "good vs evil" of long dead people!

In that aspect, what prevents me from CREATING my own moral values?

Why should I rule myself by the rules of others? Why can't i create my own rules. Why can't i create rules that benefit myself more?

Again Morality is tied to the Idea of a God.

Without a God then morality has no greater value.

Anyone is allowed to modify/create/distort moral values that would benefit them.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

[B]If OUR MORAL VALUES are our creation instead of a Supreme Being's...

Then it's safe that Our current moral values are but the ideas of "good vs evil" of long dead people!

In that aspect, what prevents me from CREATING my own moral values?

Why should I rule myself by the rules of others? Why can't i create my own rules. Why can't i create rules that benefit myself more?

Again Morality is tied to the Idea of a God.

Without a God then morality has no greater value.

Anyone is allowed to modify/create/distort moral values that would benefit them. [/B]

Nothing prevents you from doing that besides you. That's the point.

If you can't see the greater value in not committing murder, theft, adultery, etc. outside of a God telling you not to then I think the problem lies with you.

In that aspect, what prevents me from CREATING my own moral values?

Why should I rule myself by the rules of others? Why can't i create my own rules. Why can't i create rules that benefit myself more?

You can. The people around you might not take kindly to your rules, though.

Morals existed besides religion. I can see how a believer can argue that good would still stem from God, but religion is a different object altogether. Also the notion of good is much more subtle than we make it out to be and specifics are going to change in different points of history.

Originally posted by SamZED
Holding such views becomes harder if you're dealing with specific examples of friends and family. Let's take some random Christian who choses to interprete Bible in such a way that he believes that all non-believers go to hell. For the most part, it's an abstract idea that kind of floats out there and doesn't bother him. But one day his son converts to Islam or becomes an atheist. Now that idea is no longer abstract. It goes from "non-believers go to hell" to "my son WILL burn in hell forever". That's the point where most people would either start to question it in an attempt to find a loophole or choose not to think about it completely because their own morals prevent them from agreeing to the idea that their son deserves eternal demnation.

Your analysis of this is so much better than mine that it is humbling 😄

This is actually a core spiritual discussion in Judaism altogether, as Abraham is asked to sacrifice his own son to glorify God. And man, there are many possible interpretations of why and how things happened and described in the Holy books and the meaning behind it. We can then throw in Islamic and Christians readings on the subject for good measure of course.

One interpretation would be: what God gives, he can take away. As if Isaac was just a thing in God's hand, we could expect him to dispose of him. Another interpretation is that Abraham trusted God's promise, that he did in fact, not expect God to kill his son because a Great Divinity wouldn't go back on the gifts he's given. Others would go a little more folklore and say that Abraham thought Isaac would be resurrected even after his death, as God can undo whatever he does. As you can tell, not all these interpretation stand in the same spot as far as morality and consistency goes.

Originally posted by socool8520
Nothing prevents you from doing that besides you. That's the point.

If you can't see the greater value in not committing murder, theft, adultery, etc. outside of a God telling you not to then I think the problem lies with you.

No.

The problem lies with our concept of morality.

No God=Humans created it=Why can't i create my own rules?

It's a pretty simply. Not really hard to grasp.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You can. The people around you might not take kindly to your rules, though.

That is if the people around me are tied to the concept of a God.

However, what would happen if everyone in the world stops believing in God? What would happen if everyone accepts the idea that we are but a random arrangement of atoms product of evolution?

What would happen if people decide that WE ARE the creators of our rules; of our moral values?

I could see the age of dictators coming back. I could see slavery returning.

Empires similar to Rome and Greece (Who by the way didn't had the Jewish/Christian concept of Morality) rising.

If we remove God from the equation you can't expect the result to be the same.

If we remove God from our Moral concept then the Moral Concept will change since it was God the one who cement it and formed it.

Even if God doesn't exist, it's better to keep believing in God rather than to think we are the creators of our own rules.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No God=Humans created it=Why can't i create my own rules?

Because you are member of a social species that exists in a community of others, which requires cooperation.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
However, what would happen if everyone in the world stops believing in God? What would happen if everyone accepts the idea that we are but a random arrangement of atoms product of evolution?

What would happen if people decide that WE ARE the creators of our rules; of our moral values?

The world becomes Norway.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If we remove God from the equation you can't expect the result to be the same.

If we remove God from our Moral concept then the Moral Concept will change since it was God the one who cement it and formed it.

If a god is a part of the equation you cannot expect the rules to be the same, because morality would then be arbitrary to the will of god. If god decided tomorrow that child molestation was righteous, it would be. And since you do not believe you are capable of making moral determinations independently of god, you would have no basis to say that such a command was wrong.

Kind of like how Secular Society has "Decided" that Sexuality is a Fluid thing?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Because you are member of a social species that exists in a community of others, which requires cooperation.

So were the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Persians and many other societies which had moral concepts like: Slavery is okay, Dictatorship is valid, murdering and raping enemies is perfect.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The world becomes Norway.

If a god is a part of the equation you cannot expect the rules to be the same, because morality would then be arbitrary to the will of god. If god decided tomorrow that child molestation was righteous, it would be. And since you do not believe you are capable of making moral determinations independently of god, you would have no basis to say that such a command was wrong.

The world becomes anything but what it is today.

Easily explainable by God giving both Free Will and the Commandments.

He is basically saying that we can either follow his rules or follow ours. Ofcourse both pathways have their consequences...

However if we say that there is no God. Then basically why should i follow the Jewish/Christian concept of morality?

Because our current society is based on such.

religion is based on people's morality, not vice versa.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
religion is based on people's morality, not vice versa.

Then why do this religions claim it otherwise?

Why did people then created Religion?

It's like saying Humans created something yet they decided something else did it. That doesn't sound much logical.

If I invent something, I don't go saying my neighbor did. Or that an Alien life form did.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So were the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Persians and many other societies which had moral concepts like: Slavery is okay, Dictatorship is valid, murdering and raping enemies is perfect.

Incidentally, fascism, genocide, rape, and slavery are all biblical values as well.

Therein lies the difference between secular and religious morality. Secular morality is self-correcting; it improves and becomes more fair over time. Religious morality is fixed; The Bible still endorses all the same atrocities it did in the Bronze age.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
However if we say that there is no God. Then basically why should i follow the Jewish/Christian concept of morality?

You would be better off not following Judeo-Christian moral systems, because they are inherently immoral.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Then why do this religions claim it otherwise?

Why did people then created Religion?

It's like saying Humans created something yet they decided something else did it. That doesn't sound much logical.

If I invent something, I don't go saying my neighbor did. Or that an Alien life form did.

Because if I want someone to do as a I say without question, "Because a god says so," is more effective than, "Because I say so."