Why are there more theists, in the world then atheists?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
It depends on the reason for my parents murdering those children. Either way when did God murdered Children?

No one said you had to mindlessly worship him. It's not even a "have".

[B] Well Sam.....What other alternative is there

There is Heaven and Hell. There is no other alternative.

If you decide to stop believing in God, then you are basically refusing to go to Heaven...so it's hell for you.

IDK how it works...But am sure God's perception and judgement is WAY ABOVE OURS. He will judge them fairly, for that don't worry.

You are taking it as if God was an unfair God, yet you forget he is God. He won't cast judgement or send someone to hell for no reason.

God has his own way of looking at things, he will know what to do with those who were born outside his religious domains. [/B]

It is a "have" if the alternative is hell. We've been over this. This isn't a choice, it's a threat of torture.

There are alternatives in other relgions and from atheistic perspective, but obviously I am trying to stay within the realm of Christianity for the sake of this debate. And yeah, there are no alternatives as far as Christianity goes. That's my problem with it. One cannot simply claim that God must be good just because he is God unless this can also be supported by the surrounding doctrine. And sending people to hell for disbelief doesn't seem good to me. And sure we can always say that my understanding of good is nothing compared to God's. And i'd like to address that idea:

I've noticed that most Christians find it difficult to give a straight answer to this question:
"Do you agree that anyone who stops believing in God deserves to literally burn for all eternity?"
And the reason is - most know that the "correct" Christian answer would be "Yes, everyone who stops believing in God, no matter how good/honest/noble they are, all deserve to burn in hell for all eternity. Including friends, neighbors, family.". But most Christians avoid givving that answer simply because it doesn't feel right and goes against their own sense of morality that they are forced to push aside when it comes in conflict with God's so called "superior" morality. Ironically, those same Christians claim that there can be no morality without God while clearly displaying superior moral standards than the God of the Bible. Thing is, for most people it is next to impossile to accept such things as "good" from the non-religious perspective.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Could you cite the passage you got that from.

Id like to read that myself.

Mathew 12:31-32

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The way I've always viewed it is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal, but the Holy Spirit is like a part of God that dwells within you and allows you to cultivate virtue.

So a good person could reject the idea that the Father exists and created them or that Jesus is their savior out of skepticism or incredulity rather than malevolent intent, but to reject the Holy Spirit would constitute a failure to cultivate goodness within yourself.

My first idea would be a similar interpretation, it also makes sense in a different way: the Holy Spirit works through human beings that don't have the power or the stature of God/Jesus. Attacking someone vulnerable because he's Good, it's worse of an offense than a pandimensional being that fully owns all His acts.

Originally posted by SamZED
But that's implying that there must be a good reason for any atrocity comitted by God or by his order. Or in this case by parents. As for when - Canaanites, the great flood. I'm sure there are other examples, but that's off the top of my head. You can be thankful for the life you received but that in itself does not warrant love or worship and certainly doesn't mean that your parents (or in this case God) are good by default.

It is a "have" if the alternative is hell. We've been over this. This isn't a choice, it's a threat of torture.

There are alternatives in other relgions and from atheistic perspective, but obviously I am trying to stay within the realm of Christianity for the sake of this debate. And yeah, there are no alternatives as far as Christianity goes. That's my problem with it. One cannot simply claim that God must be good just because he is God unless this can also be supported by the surrounding doctrine. And sending people to hell for disbelief doesn't seem good to me. And sure we can always say that my understanding of good is nothing compared to God's. And i'd like to address that idea:

I've noticed that most Christians find it difficult to give a straight answer to this question:
"Do you agree that anyone who stops believing in God deserves to literally burn for all eternity?"
And the reason is - most know that the "correct" Christian answer would be "Yes, everyone who stops believing in God, no matter how good/honest/noble they are, all deserve to burn in hell for all eternity. Including friends, neighbors, family.". But most Christians avoid givving that answer simply because it doesn't feel right and goes against their own sense of morality that they are forced to push aside when it comes in conflict with God's so called "superior" morality. Ironically, those same Christians claim that there can be no morality without God while clearly displaying superior moral standards than the God of the Bible. Thing is, for most people it is next to impossile to accept such things as "good" from the non-religious perspective.

That's what am implying. Well if God isn't good then who is my friend? If God exists, then it's likely he is the most Good person in the world!

It's a reward. Those who believe get rewarded whilst those who don't well...They simply get what they believe (Not to be with God).

Yeah you are right.

Well, why should it be immoral to send to hell all of those who don't believe in you?

I mean, If we are God's creation, he can basically do as he wishes with us!

If i create something, and it is defective, throwing it in the garbage isn't immoral.

It's not that difficult to understand. We are God's creation, to disobey him deserves punishment. Just like a kid who misbehaves deserve to get punished by his mother for his misdoings.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's what am implying. Well if God isn't good then who is my friend? If God exists, then it's likely he is the most Good person in the world!

It's a reward. Those who believe get rewarded whilst those who don't well...They simply get what they believe (Not to be with God).

Yeah you are right.

Well, why should it be immoral to send to hell all of those who don't believe in you?

I mean, If we are God's creation, he can basically do as he wishes with us!

If i create something, and it is defective, throwing it in the garbage isn't immoral.

It's not that difficult to understand. We are God's creation, to disobey him deserves punishment. Just like a kid who misbehaves deserve to get punished by his mother for his misdoings.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Elmo will go to hell too!!!!!! 😂 😂

Hehe JK.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's what am implying. Well if God isn't good then who is my friend? If God exists, then it's likely he is the most Good person in the world!

It's a reward. Those who believe get rewarded whilst those who don't well...They simply get what they believe (Not to be with God).

Yeah you are right.

Well, why should it be immoral to send to hell all of those who don't believe in you?

I mean, If we are God's creation, he can basically do as he wishes with us!

If i create something, and it is defective, throwing it in the garbage isn't immoral.

It's not that difficult to understand. We are God's creation, to disobey him deserves punishment. Just like a kid who misbehaves deserve to get punished by his mother for his misdoings.

Arguing about God's morality is an intellectual exercise more than anything else and I'm unsure whether it made sense in the context of the Bible. We are being judged through a commandment that is explicitly at our reach and understandment:

Deuteronomy 30
11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Even if God's morality Is beyond us, that Image won't cast a dooming shadow upon us. I'd accept it as something wholy secondary as far as Church teachings go.

Originally posted by SamZED
"Do you agree that anyone who stops believing in God deserves to literally burn for all eternity?"
And the reason is - most know that the "correct" Christian answer would be "Yes, everyone who stops believing in God, no matter how good/honest/noble they are, all deserve to burn in hell for all eternity. Including friends, neighbors, family."

Well, I don't think that is the case in the light of Jesus saying "any blasphemy will be forgiven". It makes for a good argument about how Mortal Sin goes beyond verbally and intellectualy objecting God. I assume that for most Christians the fact of disbelief goes hand to hand with not being good, honest or noble. Of course, Jesus already crushed that notion in Luke 10:25-29 (because that's how he rolls 😎 )

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's what am implying. Well if God isn't good then who is my friend? If God exists, then it's likely he is the most Good person in the world!

It's a reward. Those who believe get rewarded whilst those who don't well...They simply get what they believe (Not to be with God).

Yeah you are right.

Well, why should it be immoral to send to hell all of those who don't believe in you?

I mean, If we are God's creation, he can basically do as he wishes with us!

If i create something, and it is defective, throwing it in the garbage isn't immoral.

It's not that difficult to understand. We are God's creation, to disobey him deserves punishment. Just like a kid who misbehaves deserve to get punished by his mother for his misdoings.

I feel that this is one point we can never agree on. Those who believe get rewarded, while those who don't believe do not really get what they believe. They get tortured forever. By God. As per the rules he created. He doesn't have to torture anyone. He choses to. Basically out of spite. He is doing something that today would be considered gisgusting if done by any human.

I think it is immoral to send someone to hell for not beleiving in God. Try applying that same morality to us for one second. Imagine parents setting their children on fire for not loving them. Would you find it a moral act? I doubt that you would. But you'd still give God a pass because he's God. So at the very least we can agree that he is not good by our human standards of morality.

And I agree that God has the power to do anything to us as the creator. But I don't subscrbe to the idea that he should be allowed to do anything just on the bsasis of being our creator. You've mentioned a mother punishing her children and it's a good example but for a different reason. A mother absolutely should NOT be able to do whatever she likes to her children just because she gave birth to them. If a mother desides that her son is "deffective" and kills him she'll go to jail as well she should. She can however scold or even spank her son for misbehaving. So it all comes down to whether we think that burning your child for eternity is a fitting punishment for such a victimless crime as "disbelief". I think it is not. I don't believe that you think it is. But you refuse to apply these very logical morals to God. Because he is God. Which means he can commit any atrocity and deem it good. And we'd have to accept that it's good even if we don't actually think that it is. This is very wrong IMO.

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, I don't think that is the case in the light of Jesus saying "any blasphemy will be forgiven". It makes for a good argument about how Mortal Sin goes beyond verbally and intellectualy objecting God. I assume that for most Christians the fact of disbelief goes hand to hand with not being good, honest or noble. Of course, Jesus already crushed that notion in Luke 10:25-29 (because that's how he rolls cool )

Originally posted by SamZED
Yes, I know that you don't subscribe to that idea and I am very sypathetic with your views on Christian system of reward/punishment. I am trying to speak from the position of those who say that they believe that hell is only alternative for those who don't believe in God. The reason I am doing that is because I have noticed that most people who claim that they believe that.. aren't very comfortable with it themselves, but subconsciously choose not to think about it because it conflicts with their interpretation of Christianity.

I'd assume that to some degree it has to do with the idea that Faith saves and you could go a long way to argue that this is also a major point of conflict with "Westernized" sceptic line of thought.

If holding your Belief is the thing you expect to shield you from Eternal damnation, then actively questioning God could be seeing as a massive risk. Somewhere in that space I see that Hope is confused with Fear, that God's mysterious essence is abused not-to-think-too-hard instead of casually dismissed because it's not central to a christian life.

Originally posted by SamZED
I see. I don't think there's a good reason for everything bad that happens but I see your point. And I don't see God as the most good based on his description in the Bible. Some of the things he does/will do are not good by today's standards.

I feel that this is one point we can never agree on. Those who believe get rewarded, while those who don't believe do not really get what they believe. They get tortured forever. By God. As per the rules he created. He doesn't have to torture anyone. He choses to. Basically out of spite. He is doing something that today would be considered gisgusting if done by any human.

I think it is immoral to send someone to hell for not beleiving in God. Try applying that same morality to us for one second. Imagine parents setting their children on fire for not loving them. Would you find it a moral act? I doubt that you would. But you'd still give God a pass because he's God. So at the very least we can agree that he is not good by our human standards of morality.

And I agree that God has the power to do anything to us as the creator. But I don't subscrbe to the idea that he should be allowed to do anything just on the bsasis of being our creator. You've mentioned a mother punishing her children and it's a good example but for a different reason. A mother absolutely should NOT be able to do whatever she likes to her children just because she gave birth to them. If a mother desides that her son is "deffective" and kills him she'll go to jail as well she should. She can however scold or even spank her son for misbehaving. So it all comes down to whether we think that burning your child for eternity is a fitting punishment for such a victimless crime as "disbelief". I think it is not. I don't believe that you think it is. But you refuse to apply these very logical morals to God. Because he is God. Which means he can commit any atrocity and deem it good. And we'd have to accept that it's good even if we don't actually think that it is. This is very wrong IMO.

Can't the one who created it destroy it? Can't God who gave life take it away? In fact even nowadays, it's God the one who takes life away. Without God's approval, no one would die. In the same way I ask you, where is the immorality in God taking the life of children or people away? Specially of people who are "bad" and disobey him!?

Which present standards makes God a bad person?

Yes but God's not a human. And you are right, per the rules he created many will go to hell. God created the rules. It's our choice whether to follow them or not. If we don't follow the rules, then it's consequences are our fault! Even in our present society, if you break a law/rule, is it the judge's fault for you to go to jail or get punished?

Okay the mother-child was just to picture it to you better. But it aint a good analogue.

You know, I begin to understand where your problem lies. You keep taking God as if he was one of us. You are analizing God under human eyes.

To understand God, you need to THINK as God and put yourself into a Godly perspective.

God isn't a human nor must he be taken as one. Therefore, God doesn't follow our rules nor does he think like we do.

Having said that you need to understand the God-Man relationship.

My Mother-Son analogue wasn't adequate since that's not the type of relationship we have with God.

God is OUR CREATOR not our Father (Atleast not literal).

We are creatures of God, just like the animals and plants are.

We are called "children of God" by title. And like such, it is an earnt title. That's why God said that those who disobey him will not be called children of God, and therefore will be casted to the Fires of Hell.

Also, God "CREATED" us to worship him. So our whole role in this earth originally was to serve him and love him.

This is very well stated in the Bible.

Genesis 2:15 : The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Isaiah 43:7 : everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

As you can see - and can find in many other parts within the bible - God created us as servants of him.

As such, If we serve him well, God promised to reward us with the Heavens, and to call us his children.

So you can see that we are not just God's sons, we are his servants.

So in that aspect, if you put yourself under God's perspective. He expects us to serve him!

What happens if a servant of yours doesn't serve you well? Don't you fire him??

Samething happens with God. God is the master and we are his servants. To serve him well represents reward whilst refusing to serve him receives punishment.

So forgive me if i sold you the idea of God being our Father/Mother.

He is but he isn't.

I consider God my father. I serve him, and I worship him.

If i were an atheist, obviously i wouldn't call God my father because i don't believe in him. In the same way, God claims he won't call a Misbehaved creation his son/daughter.

Originally posted by Bentley
Arguing about God's morality is an intellectual exercise more than anything else and I'm unsure whether it made sense in the context of the Bible. We are being judged through a commandment that is explicitly at our reach and understandment:

Deuteronomy 30
11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Even if God's morality Is beyond us, that Image won't cast a dooming shadow upon us. I'd accept it as something wholy secondary as far as Church teachings go.

Well, I don't think that is the case in the light of Jesus saying "any blasphemy will be forgiven". It makes for a good argument about how Mortal Sin goes beyond verbally and intellectualy objecting God. I assume that for most Christians the fact of disbelief goes hand to hand with not being good, honest or noble. Of course, Jesus already crushed that notion in Luke 10:25-29 (because that's how he rolls 😎 )

I agree completly.

I never said God's morality would cast a dooming shadow over us.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

Can't the one who created it destroy it? Can't God who gave life take it away? In fact even nowadays, it's God the one who takes life away. Without God's approval, no one would die. In the same way I ask you, where is the immorality in God taking the life of children or people away? Specially of people who are "bad" and disobey him!?

Which present standards makes God a bad person?

Yes but God's not a human. And you are right, per the rules he created many will go to hell. God created the rules. It's our choice whether to follow them or not. If we don't follow the rules, then it's consequences are our fault! Even in our present society, if you break a law/rule, is it the judge's fault for you to go to jail or get punished?

Okay the mother-child was just to picture it to you better. But it aint a good analogue.

You know, I begin to understand where your problem lies. You keep taking God as if he was one of us. You are analizing God under human eyes.

To understand God, you need to THINK as God and put yourself into a Godly perspective.

God isn't a human nor must he be taken as one. Therefore, God doesn't follow our rules nor does he think like we do.

Having said that you need to understand the God-Man relationship.

My Mother-Son analogue wasn't adequate since that's not the type of relationship we have with God.

God is OUR CREATOR not our Father (Atleast not literal).

We are creatures of God, just like the animals and plants are.

We are called "children of God" by title. And like such, it is an earnt title. That's why God said that those who disobey him will not be called children of God, and therefore will be casted to the Fires of Hell.

Also, God "CREATED" us to worship him. So our whole role in this earth originally was to serve him and love him.

This is very well stated in the Bible.

Genesis 2:15 : The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Isaiah 43:7 : everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

As you can see - and can find in many other parts within the bible - God created us as servants of him.

As such, If we serve him well, God promised to reward us with the Heavens, and to call us his children.

So you can see that we are not just God's sons, we are his servants.

So in that aspect, if you put yourself under God's perspective. He expects us to serve him!

What happens if a servant of yours doesn't serve you well? Don't you fire him??

Samething happens with God. God is the master and we are his servants. To serve him well represents reward whilst refusing to serve him receives punishment.

So forgive me if i sold you the idea of God being our Father/Mother.

He is but he isn't.

I consider God my father. I serve him, and I worship him.

If i were an atheist, obviously i wouldn't call God my father because i don't believe in him. In the same way, God claims he won't call a Misbehaved creation his son/daughter.

I believe I have addressed that. I do not necessarily think that God should be entitled to ending a life, let alone torturing people just because he's created said life. It's just there's no trial that can prosecute him. As for what is immoral in God taking life of children etc... I don't see what's moral about a kid dying painfuly from some messed up disease only to find out that he's going to burn for eternity afterwards just because he happened to be born in (let's say) a buddhist family. Especially if God has the power to not do that, but choses to anyway. I don't feel it's even worth elaborating. How can you possible say that it's moral? I honestly don't think that you believe that for a second, but choose not to analyse it because it's God we are talking about.

God did create the rules and we will be punished if we don't follow them, I get that idea. But that doesn't mean we can't logically assess whether these rules are fair or logical. That's the thing - most laws that we have actually make sense! And if they don't we get to say that this certain law or rule is messed up. And eventually it can be changed. Not with God though. That's the key difference. There's a huge gap between following rules because you know they are just/fair AND being FORCED to follow rules that we know clearly make no sense but we follow them anyway and pretend they make sense because we're screwed otherwise. And if so we cannot simultaneously claim that this God that is forcing us to be ok with the idea of good people being tortured for eternity is a loving God.

I understand that "Father/children" aren't literral in this case.

Now, I'd like to address this part of your post:
"You know, I begin to understand where your problem lies. You keep taking God as if he was one of us. You are analizing God under human eyes."
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. I was trying to make that as clear as I can. And I don't think that's a problem. You are right in that I am absolutely building an argument by holding God to our human standards of morality. I do that on purpose and I can explain why. I believe we briefly covered that subject with Bentley, but I can elaborate. So here goes:
You know how they say that "God is good"? It makes no sense to hold God to some other standards of morality because it completely throws the concept of "good" out of the window for us. Here lies a fundamental problem with many religions. God gets to define what's good. Meaning that if God says that slavery is good, then there's no basis for you as a religious person to say that somebody shouldn't own people as property. No way to say that parents shouldn't get their children stoned for disobedience. Some of those rules could fly 2000 years ago, but we are so far beyond that now. And we as species can get to a point where we agree "Yes, let's not own each other as furniture". We are social creatures that have logic and empathy. And we have to completely override both of these things in order to comply with God's morality and understanding of good. And it can be downright harmful. There's a great quote that I like: "With or without religion, good people can do good and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion". So yes, I will hold God to our human standards of morality, otherwise there's no point talking about this. You could just say that slavery is objectively good. And if you choose to say that slavery isn't good that means you're also saying that God's understanding of good is wrong. And if so, why bother calling him good in the first place and why worship him (even if he creatred us for that very purpose) other than out of fear since you disagree with his views in your heart.

Originally posted by Bentley
I'd assume that to some degree it has to do with the idea that Faith saves and you could go a long way to argue that this is also a major point of conflict with "Westernized" sceptic line of thought.

If holding your Belief is the thing you expect to shield you from Eternal damnation, then actively questioning God could be seeing as a massive risk. Somewhere in that space I see that Hope is confused with Fear, that God's mysterious essence is abused not-to-think-too-hard instead of casually dismissed because it's not central to a christian life.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I agree completly.

I never said God's morality would cast a dooming shadow over us.

To summarize i'd like to say the following:
We either subscribe to God's understanding of things that are moral (which may include slavery, genocide, stoning of people etc.) OR we choose not to subscribe to it as most of us do anyway seing how we don't stone people and don't own slaves. But if we choose not to subscribe to his understanding of morality we then don't say that God is good or moral. Because our actions clearly show that we don't believe it.

Originally posted by SamZED
I believe I have addressed that. I do not necessarily think that God should be entitled to ending a life, let alone torturing people just because he's created said life. It's just there's no trial that can prosecute him. As for what is immoral in God taking life of children etc... I don't see what's moral about a kid dying painfuly from some messed up disease only to find out that he's going to burn for eternity afterwards just because he happened to be born in (let's say) a buddhist family. Especially if God has the power to not do that, but choses to anyway. I don't feel it's even worth elaborating. How can you possible say that it's moral? I honestly don't think that you believe that for a second, but choose not to analyse it because it's God we are talking about.

God did create the rules and we will be punished if we don't follow them, I get that idea. But that doesn't mean we can't logically assess whether these rules are fair or logical. That's the thing - most laws that we have actually make sense! And if they don't we get to say that this certain law or rule is messed up. And eventually it can be changed. Not with God though. That's the key difference. [b]There's a huge gap between following rules because you know they are just/fair AND being FORCED to follow rules that we know clearly make no sense but we follow them anyway and pretend they make sense because we're screwed otherwise. And if so we cannot simultaneously claim that this God that is forcing us to be ok with the idea of good people being tortured for eternity is a loving God.

I understand that "Father/children" aren't literral in this case.

Now, I'd like to address this part of your post:
"You know, I begin to understand where your problem lies. You keep taking God as if he was one of us. You are analizing God under human eyes."
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. I was trying to make that as clear as I can. And I don't think that's a problem. You are right in that I am absolutely building an argument by holding God to our human standards of morality. I do that on purpose and I can explain why. I believe we briefly covered that subject with Bentley, but I can elaborate. So here goes:
You know how they say that "God is good"? It makes no sense to hold God to some other standards of morality because it completely throws the concept of "good" out of the window for us. Here lies a fundamental problem with many religions. God gets to define what's good. Meaning that if God says that slavery is good, then there's no basis for you as a religious person to say that somebody shouldn't own people as property. No way to say that parents shouldn't get their children stoned for disobedience. Some of those rules could fly 2000 years ago, but we are so far beyond that now. And we as species can get to a point where we agree "Yes, let's not own each other as furniture". We are social creatures that have logic and empathy. And we have to completely override both of these things in order to comply with God's morality and understanding of good. And it can be downright harmful. There's a great quote that I like: "With or without religion, good people can do good and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion". So yes, I will hold God to our human standards of morality, otherwise there's no point talking about this. You could just say that slavery is objectively good. And if you choose to say that slavery isn't good that means you're also saying that God's understanding of good is wrong. And if so, why bother calling him good in the first place and why worship him (even if he creatred us for that very purpose) other than out of fear since you disagree with his views in your heart. [/B]

He creates life, He takes it. Pretty clear and pretty fair. It's a gift from him to us. Who are we to demand more? I think I already adressed the "being born in other religions" point.

Who said Dead is a bad thing? Dead is but a gateway from this life to the next. It's a passage! Why should the means of going through it matter? If i die of cancer or if i die of getting raped. The dead don't feel.

Dead can either be a reward or a punishment. If i am with God, and i believe am good enough to earn heaven, then i won't find pain in my passing. On the other hand, if am evil and have a clouded heart, dead is but the worst nightmare. Which one is for you? I don't know, i just hope it's not the second one.

The only mistake in your statement is that no one is FORCING you to follow God's rules

God was pretty clear when he stated that you were free to chose his way or your way. It's not that hard to understand.

Also i don't see which rules from God are illogical or unfair, honestly.

HAHAHAHAHA. You can't really see the problem with your own statement? Let me show you:

Here lies a fundamental problem with many religions. God gets to define what's good . Meaning that if God says that slavery is good, then there's no basis for you as a religious person to say that somebody shouldn't own people as property

You yourself again answer your own statement. God gets to decide what is Good and what is Evil And this is something i've argued in other posts. Let me introduce it to you:

Our current "morality" our current ideology of good and evil is founded on the principles of God (specially the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God). The Oriental and Occidental ideology of Good and Evil was forged by the bible!

Our current "morality" is based on God's rules and commandments. Don't you see?

- Don't Kill
-Don't Steal
-Don't Lie
-Don't cheat.

All these primordial rules and concept of morality our countries/schools/parents teach us are derived from Religion!

In that aspect, our concept of morality is attributed to God. So your point does collapse in that aspect.

You can't really claim "God is evil to OUR STANDARDS OF MORALITY!" because in reality they are not even OUR STANDARDS they are HIS STANDARDS!

Bringing down God to our level of thinking is a big mistake SamZed, simply because God isn't a human. His intellect and understanding over reality dwarf ours.

The current concept of morality (what is good and evil) were given BY GOD TO US. They are rules FOR US not for GOD.

Originally posted by SamZED
To summarize i'd like to say the following:
[b]We either subscribe to God's understanding of things that are moral (which may include slavery, genocide, stoning of people etc.) OR we choose not to subscribe to it as most of us do anyway seing how we don't stone people and don't own slaves. But if we choose not to subscribe to his understanding of morality we then don't say that God is good or moral. Because our actions clearly show that we don't believe it. [/B]

Again, there is no "subscribing" to God's morality! We already live under "God's moral codes".

Just check the constitution of your country and then read the bible, it's gonna be surprising!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He creates life, He takes it. Pretty clear and pretty fair. It's a gift from him to us. Who are we to demand more? I think I already adressed the "being born in other religions" point.

Who said Dead is a bad thing? Dead is but a gateway from this life to the next. It's a passage! Why should the means of going through it matter? If i die of cancer or if i die of getting raped. The dead don't feel.

Dead can either be a reward or a punishment. If i am with God, and i believe am good enough to earn heaven, then i won't find pain in my passing. On the other hand, if am evil and have a clouded heart, dead is but the worst nightmare. Which one is for you? I don't know, i just hope it's not the second one.

[B] The only mistake in your statement is that no one is FORCING you to follow God's rules

God was pretty clear when he stated that you were free to chose his way or your way. It's not that hard to understand.

Also i don't see which rules from God are illogical or unfair, honestly.

HAHAHAHAHA. You can't really see the problem with your own statement? Let me show you:

You yourself again answer your own statement. God gets to decide what is Good and what is Evil And this is something i've argued in other posts. Let me introduce it to you:

Our current "morality" our current ideology of good and evil is founded on the principles of God (specially the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God). The Oriental and Occidental ideology of Good and Evil was forged by the bible!

Our current "morality" is based on God's rules and commandments. Don't you see?

- Don't Kill
-Don't Steal
-Don't Lie
-Don't cheat.

All these primordial rules and concept of morality our countries/schools/parents teach us are derived from Religion!

In that aspect, our concept of morality is attributed to God. So your point does collapse in that aspect.

You can't really claim "God is evil to OUR STANDARDS OF MORALITY!" because in reality they are not even OUR STANDARDS they are HIS STANDARDS!

Bringing down God to our level of thinking is a big mistake SamZed, simply because God isn't a human. His intellect and understanding over reality dwarf ours.

The current concept of morality (what is good and evil) were given BY GOD TO US. They are rules FOR US not for GOD. [/B]

In regards to other religions you said that it's ok because you can believe anything as long as you don't take other gods before the Christian God. Which is illogical. I believe I already gave my rebuttal to it by pointing out that there's no reason for people that were raised in other religions to abandon their faiths in favor of some other faith. So it is not at all fair to them becasue they are as certain about their religion as you are certain about Christianity and there's no reason for them to doubt it. So basically your afterlife depends on geography. Born in the right place go to heaven. Born in the wrong place go to hell. Still messed up.

So what are you saying? It doesn't matter that people suffer before death? Kind of makes Jesus' suffering pointless then, doesn't it? I am not saying that death is "bad", it's just inevitable. However, suffering of children is clearly a bad thing. You'd think we can agree on that. Meanwhile, the idea of them getting tortured forever after they die is down right disgusting. Not according to God's rules though. And again, I have to say that I do not believe that you actually believe that yourself. And fine, dead is a gateway from this life to the next one. And for most people who ever lived on this planet that gateway leads directly to eternal torture courtesy of God.

In regards to this part of your post:

"Dead can either be a reward or a punishment. If i am with God, and i believe am good enough to earn heaven, then i won't find pain in my passing. On the other hand, if am evil and have a clouded heart, dead is but the worst nightmare. Which one is for you? I don't know, i just hope it's not the second one."

Why would you hope it is not the second one? Surely if I am "evil" I deserve it. In fact, I was hoping you can help me figure out if I am "evil" worthy of eternal torture. I don't kill or steal, I try to be nice to others, etc. Knowing that do you think I still deserve to burn for eternity? Note that I am not asking you to speak for God, just voice your personal opinion based on what your religion teaches. Do I and millions of other people most of whom are good/loving individuals, that you see every day and smile at in the streets and at work... should have their skin burnt off non-stop forever until the end of time? Do you think it is a fitting punishment for me/them? Yes or No? Please give me a straight answer this time.

How is that a mistake? Yes, we ARE being forced. We've been over this. A threat of eternal torture doesn't translate into a free choice. And what's more messed up - some people don't even get THAT kind of "choice" because they are born, raised and die always believing that their religion is the correct one and God never bothers to provide them with concrete evidence to enable them to change their faith.

I am sorry, but the last part of your post make no sense to me. Our morals don't come from God, in fact it's the other way around. Religion incorporated some of the basic rules that we as social creatures developed long before Christianity ever existed. Some of them hold up today such as "don't kill/don't steal" which are just very sensible rules to live in a society. People have been doing that long before Jesus came along and you'd be hardpressed to prove otherwise. Other rules that religion incorporated are useless in this day and age like "don't creat idols" and were abandoned long ago. I know we won't agree on that point so let us agree to disagree. That doesn't really concern me if you think that God is the source of our morality. My problem with your position is of a different nature. And here it is:
You say that I am making a mistake by trying to hold God to some other moral standards when in reality it is all God's morals that we are living by. So what's my problem with this position? Well, the problem is - we actually don't live by his morals and thank God for that. Let me paint you a picture of what we'd be like if we did live by his morals. Slavery would be acceptable, genocide would be acceptable, we would be all for the idea of good people being tortured for eternity for the "crime" of not beleiving in God. In fact it used to be the case and people tried to exercise that particular kind of God's "morality", it's called inquisition. Tahnkfully we abandoned that once we realized how crazy this is. What surprises me the most is that you also claim to live by God's morals, yet you actually don't. For one thing I doubt you're ok with owning people as property (correct me if I am wrong), you cannot even get yourself to outright say that anyone who doesn't believe in God no matter how good/kind/loving they are... deserve to be tortured forever. Those are God's rules. So why won't you say it? Is it possible that you actually feel how messed up this is? See, that's the thing. We absolutely do NOT live by God's morals today. We have our own set of morals that were developed over time and that work for us. In fact things that are considered horrible by today's standards are considered good in "God's moral code" and the bast majority of people including christians would say "No!" once asked if they consider those God-approved things to be moral or not. I have read the Bible. Only more reason for me to say that we clearly do not live by God's moral code. Some of the things Bible has incorporated are still relevant today, others are vile and were abandoned long ago.

So, again Josh, you can't have it both ways, we either live by God's moral code in which case things like slavery, torture of non-believers, genocide, stoning of children should be concidered moral... or we say that all of those things are NOT moral, in which case we are clearly not living by God's moral code, but instead live by our own that has improved significantly since the Bible was written. So which one is it?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again, there is no "subscribing" to God's morality! We already live under "God's moral codes".

Just check the constitution of your country and then read the bible, it's gonna be surprising!

You are debating yourself in a trap when you claim that we live by God's morals.
Because if we do, you'll have no trouble giving straight answers to the following questions. And I want straight answers. None of the "God knows better, he gets to say what's moral" etc. If we live by his morals as you claim, then things that are moral to him must also be moral to us. Otherwise you're admitting that we do not live by his moral code. So answer me:
1. Do you think it is moral to torture children?
2. Do you think slavery is moral?
3. Do you think genocide is moral?
4. Do you think it is moral to toture otherwise GOOD people for all eternity for the crime of not believing in God?"
5. Do you think it is moral to stone children to death?

Those are the things that can be moral as per God's rules/Bible. So what are you answers to those questions? Straight answers please. Yes or no.

Originally posted by SamZED
In regards to other religions you said that it's ok because you can believe anything as long as you don't take other gods before the Christian God. Which is illogical. I believe I already gave my rebuttal to it by pointing out that there's no reason for people that were raised in other religions to abandon their faiths in favor of some other faith. So it is not at all fair to them becasue they are as certain about their religion as you are certain about Christianity and there's no reason for them to doubt it. So basically your afterlife depends on geography. Born in the right place go to heaven. Born in the wrong place go to hell. Still messed up.

So what are you saying? It doesn't matter that people suffer before death? Kind of makes Jesus' suffering pointless then, doesn't it? I am not saying that death is "bad", it's just inevitable. However, suffering of children is clearly a bad thing. You'd think we can agree on that. Meanwhile, the idea of them getting tortured forever after they die is down right disgusting. [b]Not according to God's rules though. And again, I have to say that I do not believe that you actually believe that yourself. And fine, dead is a gateway from this life to the next one. And for most people who ever lived on this planet that gateway leads directly to eternal torture courtesy of God.

In regards to this part of your post:

"Dead can either be a reward or a punishment. If i am with God, and i believe am good enough to earn heaven, then i won't find pain in my passing. On the other hand, if am evil and have a clouded heart, dead is but the worst nightmare. Which one is for you? I don't know, i just hope it's not the second one."

Why would you hope it is not the second one? Surely if I am "evil" I deserve it. In fact, I was hoping you can help me figure out if I am "evil" worthy of eternal torture. I don't kill or steal, I try to be nice to others, etc. Knowing that do you think I still deserve to burn for eternity? Note that I am not asking you to speak for God, just voice your personal opinion based on what your religion teaches. Do I and millions of other people most of whom are good/loving individuals, that you see every day and smile at in the streets and at work... should have their skin burnt off non-stop forever until the end of time? Do you think it is a fitting punishment for me/them? Yes or No? Please give me a straight answer this time.

How is that a mistake? Yes, we ARE being forced. We've been over this. A threat of eternal torture doesn't translate into a free choice. And what's more messed up - some people don't even get THAT kind of "choice" because they are born, raised and die always believing that their religion is the correct one and God never bothers to provide them with concrete evidence to enable them to change their faith.

I am sorry, but the last part of your post make no sense to me. Our morals don't come from God, in fact it's the other way around. Religion incorporated some of the basic rules that we as social creatures developed long before Christianity ever existed. Some of them hold up today such as "don't kill/don't steal" which are just very sensible rules to live in a society. People have been doing that long before Jesus came along and you'd be hardpressed to prove otherwise. Other rules that religion incorporated are useless in this day and age like "don't creat idols" and were abandoned long ago. I know we won't agree on that point so let us agree to disagree. That doesn't really concern me if you think that God is the source of our morality. My problem with your position is of a different nature. And here it is:
You say that I am making a mistake by trying to hold God to some other moral standards when in reality it is all God's morals that we are living by. So what's my problem with this position? Well, the problem is - we actually don't live by his morals and thank God for that. Let me paint you a picture of what we'd be like if we did live by his morals. Slavery would be acceptable, genocide would be acceptable, we would be all for the idea of good people being tortured for eternity for the "crime" of not beleiving in God. In fact it used to be the case and people tried to exercise that particular kind of God's "morality", it's called inquisition. Tahnkfully we abandoned that once we realized how crazy this is. What surprises me the most is that you also claim to live by God's morals, yet you actually don't. For one thing I doubt you're ok with owning people as property (correct me if I am wrong), you cannot even get yourself to outright say that anyone who doesn't believe in God no matter how good/kind/loving they are... deserve to be tortured forever. Those are God's rules. So why won't you say it? Is it possible that you actually feel how messed up this is? See, that's the thing. We absolutely do NOT live by God's morals today. We have our own set of morals that were developed over time and that work for us. In fact things that are considered horrible by today's standards are considered good in "God's moral code" and the bast majority of people including christians would say "No!" once asked if they consider those God-approved things to be moral or not. I have read the Bible. Only more reason for me to say that we clearly do not live by God's moral code. Some of the things Bible has incorporated are still relevant today, others are vile and were abandoned long ago.

So, again Josh, you can't have it both ways, we either live by God's moral code in which case things like slavery, torture of non-believers, genocide, stoning of children should be concidered moral... or we say that all of those things are NOT moral, in which case we are clearly not living by God's moral code, but instead live by our own that has improved significantly since the Bible was written. So which one is it? [/B]

I already address that point!

God will judge those born on other religions in a different way. How exactly? IDK, the bible just says God shall judge them differently.

The way of your passing doesn't matter. If you are a kid and you die miserably it isn't bad!

To our human perception it is a bad thing

Again, your error is that you keep thinking God is a human.

Jesus' death is different. Can't be compared.

You are asking my personal opinion?

If you are good and don't perform any evil however you don't believe in God because "You never knew of him" then you deserve Heaven. ONLY AND ONLY if you didn't knew him or just never had any real contact or influence with him. But that is a very weird thing.

If you are a good person yet you don't believe in God despite reading the bible and hearing his words....then Hell is for you brother... 🙁 as sad as it sounds....

Why? Because you NEGATED God...

The moment you negate God as your lord then you automatically accept Satan as your master...

Again there is no middle ground.

The moment you deny God, you are following Lucifer's pathway; You are rebelling against God.

Originally posted by SamZED

Why would you hope it is not the second one? Surely if I am "evil" I deserve it. In fact, I was hoping you can help me figure out if I am "evil" worthy of eternal torture. I don't kill or steal, I try to be nice to others, etc. Knowing that do you think I still deserve to burn for eternity? Note that I am not asking you to speak for God, just voice your personal opinion based on what your religion teaches. [b]Do I and millions of other people most of whom are good/loving individuals, that you see every day and smile at in the streets and at work... should have their skin burnt off non-stop forever until the end of time? Do you think it is a fitting punishment for me/them? Yes or No? Please give me a straight answer this time.
[/B]

Let me address this part of your reply.

The answer is very complex SamZed...

But to give you my opinion i need to know...Do you believe in God?

Do you believe there is a being that exists in a plane WAY ABOVE ours?

To me it seems like you do...

Throughout all this debate i've got the feeling like you believe in him..or atleast did once...

I believe it's more like you questioning him rather than not believing in him

However, i still need to know. What is it in your case?