Re: Personification
Originally posted by ShakyamunisonPersonification makes, eg, an all-powerful, formless, invisible spirit tangible, especially if you're dealing with an illiterate population whose immediate concerns are more down to earth (eg, food, protection). It's nice to have a god you can reach out to, see and feel, especially if "He" is "human." But, yes, problems arise when a person, thing, symbol, etc, is deified. Then one starts to confuse the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.
Why do religions make God into a person. If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human. It seems to me that the problem with the discussion of a god is hopelessly doomed because of Personification.Any thoughts?
Re: Re: Personification
Originally posted by Mindship
Personification makes, eg, an all-powerful, formless, invisible spirit tangible, especially if you're dealing with an illiterate population whose immediate concerns are more down to earth (eg, food, protection). It's nice to have a god you can reach out to, see and feel, especially if "He" is "human." But, yes, problems arise when a person, thing, symbol, etc, is deified. Then one starts to confuse the map for the territory, the menu for the meal.
Exactly. It leads to things like god needs or wants.
A few reasons.
One, we personify everything. We personify teddy bears and television sets, toasters and boats and shoelaces and roller coasters. We see Mother Teresa in a Cinnabon and people or animals in the clouds. We're biologically programmed for facial recognition from the womb. So not only is this tendency likely, it's probably inevitable.
Two, if you talk to priests or holy men of any tradition (and I'm including Christianity here) you do get into the idea of God as more of a transcendental force that can't be personified or explained. But it leads us to another important aspect of religion: memetic marketing. For an idea to travel, it needs certain memetic characteristics to "stick" with a person. God with a face sticks in the brains of the masses more easily than God as an abstract omniscient entity. So it's good business sense.
Three, of course, it helps that a third of Christianity's Trinity is, literally, a person. So ascribing personal characteristics to God is actually prescribed into their doctrine.
Originally posted by Digi
A few reasons.One, we personify everything. We personify teddy bears and television sets, toasters and boats and shoelaces and roller coasters. We see Mother Teresa in a Cinnabon and people or animals in the clouds. We're biologically programmed for facial recognition from the womb. So not only is this tendency likely, it's probably inevitable.
Two, if you talk to priests or holy men of any tradition (and I'm including Christianity here) you do get into the idea of God as more of a transcendental force that can't be personified or explained. But it leads us to another important aspect of religion: memetic marketing. For an idea to travel, it needs certain memetic characteristics to "stick" with a person. God with a face sticks in the brains of the masses more easily than God as an abstract omniscient entity. So it's good business sense.
Three, of course, it helps that a third of Christianity's Trinity is, literally, a person. So ascribing personal characteristics to God is actually prescribed into their doctrine.
Marketing!
Jesus is a case of taking personification to an extreme. God-man would be the ultimate expression of personalizing a god.
btw good post. 😄
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Marketing!Jesus is a case of taking personification to an extreme. God-man would be the ultimate expression of personalizing a god.
btw good post. 😄
Thanks.
Though I'd mention that a lot of the "marketing" is done unconsciously by the people spreading religion. These ideas become such a part of the religion that we no longer think of it unless prodded specifically on the topic. But religions are powerful memes in general. Eternal life, threat of damnation, prescribed purpose, programmed for faith without evidence (or sometimes despite evidence), and usually with not so subtle suggestions to spread the message (or Word of God), and that all of these things are good to believe in. Wrap all of them together and, once it's rooted in a person's mind, it's almost impossible to fully extricate because of how fulfilling and encompassing it can seem.
The best ideas win, and by "best" I don't mean "most right" but those that can get into a person's thoughts, stay there, and ideally promote the spreading of that same thought. Powerful memes can also be right, of course, I just had to qualify my usage of "best."
Because really, two (hypothetical) guys yelling from the rocks centuries ago, one about God with a beard who promises eternal life and has 10 primary rules for you to follow....and the other talking about an unknowable but all-powerful abstract embodiment of love and totality...one was clearly going to win. And did. The same holds true today, though to a lesser extent. People still want to pray to Jesus and believe in a God-made-flesh savior. And all large religions have their prophets and historical figures. We need the human connection.
Also, meme theory is fascinating, and this post was more rambling than my last. I liked my first one better.
😮
Re: Personification
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do religions make God into a person. If there was an all powerful, all knowing god, then it would seem that this god should be anything but human. It seems to me that the problem with the discussion of a god is hopelessly doomed because of Personification.Any thoughts?
If you read the bible God has always been a man he was born into this world I dont thnk it would make any sence if he was not one.
Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean?
Is it extremely egotistical to believe that the creator of the universe, would be one of us? I think the answer is yes; humans like the empires and pharos of the past, posed as gods, but in the end, they were just human. Now, Christianity is one step removed. They believe that man was mad in the image of god, and that later, that god came down to Earth as a human. This is a nice twist to the older belief. It is slightly less egotistical. However, it isn’t a shift in the story, but a shift in perspective. In the end, god is still one of us. In a way, that separates us from the rest of the universe; it makes us safer. But we all know that we are not safer. Sometimes a delusion leads to a winning strategy.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Is it extremely egotistical to believe that the creator of the universe, would be one of us? I think the answer is yes; humans like the empires and pharos of the past, posed as gods, but in the end, they were just human. Now, Christianity is one step removed. They believe that man was mad in the image of god, and that later, that god came down to Earth as a human. This is a nice twist to the older belief. It is slightly less egotistical. However, it isn’t a shift in the story, but a shift in perspective. In the end, god is still one of us. In a way, that separates us from the rest of the universe; it makes us safer. But we all know that we are not safer. Sometimes a delusion leads to a winning strategy.
I believe a similar thing, just not exactly as you described.
Jesus was a soul (previously he was known to the world as Buddha) who either merged, or was offered a merge with 'God'/Nirvana/oneness, whatever you want to call it. Just like his previous incarnation, Buddha he chose to come back to aid others into higher state of being.
I don't know if Jesus ever claimed to be a God (in a sense, we're all part of him), but I appreciate his wish to remove religion altogether. Ironically, his followers made a brand new one around him.
Buddha didn't want to be worshipped either, but hey, humans are humans and here it applies exactly what you wrote above. Exactly that. So I agree.
I believe Jesus reincarnated by choice - perhaps his sacrifice was supposed to demonstrate what we all must do - forgive, so that we may break the cycle of rebirth.
Bible speaks of the fact that Jesus taught that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of prophet Elijah.
In fact, I am more than convinced that anything that Jesus taught which was not in line with Judaism or monotheism or was difficult to explain to the uneducated masses or any such thing at the time was eventually scrapped out of the New Testament.
I also believe Jesus didn't write anything by his own hand, nor told anyone to document his words, for a very good reason. He underestimated humans need to worship...or perhaps he didn't.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I believe a similar thing, just not exactly as you described.Jesus was a soul (previously he was known to the world as Buddha) who either merged, or was offered a merge with 'God'/Nirvana/oneness, whatever you want to call it. Just like his previous incarnation, Buddha he chose to come back to aid others into higher state of being.
I don't know if Jesus ever claimed to be a God (in a sense, we're all part of him), but I appreciate his wish to remove religion altogether. Ironically, his followers made a brand new one around him.Buddha didn't want to be worshipped either, but hey, humans are humans and here it applies exactly what you wrote above. Exactly that. So I agree.
I believe Jesus reincarnated by choice - perhaps his sacrifice was supposed to demonstrate what we all must do - forgive, so that we may break the cycle of rebirth.
Bible speaks of the fact that Jesus taught that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of prophet Elijah.
In fact, I am more than convinced that anything that Jesus taught which was not in line with Judaism or monotheism or was difficult to explain to the uneducated masses or any such thing at the time was eventually scrapped out of the New Testament.I also believe Jesus didn't write anything by his own hand, nor told anyone to document his words, for a very good reason. He underestimated humans need to worship...or perhaps he didn't.
There's a couple of ways to answer the OP.
1. One of the greatest lies ever spread is that God is not reachable, understandable, impersonal, etc. By doing this, it allows people to rationalize why they don't live the best lives they can while also depriving them of a personal relationship with their Creator.
2. This one is similar to the first but attributes everything to Satan/Lucifer: Satan has spread the lie, disguised in intelligent thought, that God is not wholly understandable/personal and does not look like "us". It is seen as a form of blasphemy and works quite well to detract and distract from a personal relationship with God.
3. God was never humanoid in form and the various attributes given were only metaphors used by genuine prophets who had no way to relate it to the humans who were not privileged with an intimate knowledge of God. Things such as, "in our image" do not mean the humanoid form, but the god-like mind of creation. It is this "mind" of God that makes us in His/Her/It's image. #'s 1 and 2 are irrelevant to this point because it can have it's cake and eat it, too.
4. God wants us to think that because God knows that the best way we can make progress towards Nirvana/Heaven/Transcendence is through personalizing the concept of God in a way that works for most. It is all part of the "plan". Only the humans think there is a reason to obfuscate this plan with other ideas.
5. There is no Creator God that has an interest in humans. We made it all up as a developing sentient species to cope with the harsh realities of mind and existence. (This is the deist or atheist interpretation).
Here's my personal take on all those perspectives: I believe that some of all 5 are true. Humans added their interpretations, God added some to help us, Lucifer (if he exists or is just a metaphor for the evil humans do...making 1 and 2 indistinguishable) added, but too much credit is given to all 4 points making #5 also true.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
There's a theory that's held by some Christian historians that during the twenty year gap in Jesus's life that the Bible leaves out Jesus visited India and learned from the Buddhists and Hindus.
I am one of those that thinks this is fully plausible. One of the things I think that made Jesus of Nazareth's message so different from all the other "messiah" preachers was his message of love, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek. Something that is eerily similar to Buddha's teachings. Let's not forget the "forsake your possessions" thing...either.