Yes, this thread was made to think about that conumdrum. Because the Jedi Knight defeated a Vitiate who had time to prepare for him in an extremely potent dark side nexus with only an astromech to help him. If we automatically bump Yoda over the Knight by virtue of that quote does that mean that Yoda is also more powerful than Vitiate, and therefore Sidious is as well? Does A<B<C?
Also indeed, that quote is written from Yoda's perspective. I personally don't see it as binding.
Power is different to combat level.
Example: Sidious is more powerful than Mace but their combat level is roughly equal. Perhaps Mace is slightly above him in fact.
I think Yoda was also above the Emporer on a purely combat level. Even though he's probably not actually more powerful than him (if you get what Im saying).
Anyway "Most Devastatingly Powerful" clearly refers to Combat level power.
^ I would go with that interpretation.
Force users excell in some areas, while they can be mediocre in some others.
Yoda has an amazing TK and saber skills, Vitiate can mindfvck people and has abilty to cheat death.
Combat-wise I'll put my money on Yoda.
EDIT:
About that quote. I recall that it have been already discussed few times, like in this thread:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t501454.html
And I don't see any conclusive evidence that it is from Yoda's perspective.
Here link to the actual page when the discussion starts:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=501454&pagenumber=4
Again, it is far from obvious it is from Yoda's own musings.
^ Yes I am also not convinced that was in his mind..
The part which was in Yoda's mind was his realisation that he just doesn't have it.
"The most devastatingly powerful foe" was in between comma's to describe "He" as in who "He" is. So I see that as the narrator's description of "He" and then comes the realisation that "He" has come up with.
That's how I read it anyway. In any case as far as In Universe opinions go relating to how powerful Jedi are, I think the opinion of the 1000 year old Master has a lot of credibility to it.
Most of the RotS novel is written in Third-person limited narration.
'The third-person limited (often called 'third person intimate' by those educated in non-American/British-based systems) is a narrative mode in which the reader experiences the story through the senses and thoughts of one, or more, participating characters. This is almost always the main character—e.g., Gabriel in James Joyce's "The Dead", the titular character in Nathaniel Hawthorne's "Young Goodman Brown", the elderly fisherman in Ernest Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea, or Harry Potter in J. K. Rowling's series. In third-person limited, the narration is limited in the same way a first-person narrative might be—i.e., the narrator cannot tell the reader things that the focal character does not know—but the text is written in the third person.
The third-person limited mode grew dramatically in popularity during the twentieth century, such that it can be associated with the twentieth century much as the third-person omniscient is associated with the nineteenth century.'
If you've read Harry Potter you'll know what this is like, the main characters thoughts and perceptions are told through the narrative. For instance you'll only ever hear Harry's perspective and feelings in the narration, never other characters. The RotS novel is written in the same way, the chapters always follow a single character and are based from their perceptions. In the chapter in question we are following Yoda.
Even if this was not the case, the narration makes it clear it is his own thoughts.
That statement for Yoda represents his perception. It is similar to case of Revan. Both Yoda and Revan were convinced that they were the best; though they certainly have feats to support their perceptions. And we have canonical sources to affirm this.
However, it is unwise to assume that Yoda is the strongest Jedi after Luke. Their is no definite answer. Revan, Satele Shan, and this Jedi Knight are also among the greatest warriors. All of these have played the role of the 'champion of light' like Yoda.
I doubt that Yoda can handle Vitiate. The latter is very aggressive and has demonstrated much greater skill and power then (ROTS) Sidious during combat situations.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of the RotS novel is written in Third-person limited narration.'[b]The third-person limited (often called 'third person intimate' by those educated in non-American/British-based systems) is a narrative mode in which the reader experiences the story through the senses and thoughts of one, or more, participating characters.
This is almost always the main character—e.g., Gabriel in James Joyce's "The Dead", the titular character in Nathaniel Hawthorne's "Young Goodman Brown", the elderly fisherman in Ernest Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea, or Harry Potter in J. K. Rowling's series. In third-person limited, the narration is limited in the same way a first-person narrative might be—i.e., the narrator cannot tell the reader things that the focal character does not know—but the text is written in the third person.
The third-person limited mode grew dramatically in popularity during the twentieth century, such that it can be associated with the twentieth century much as the third-person omniscient is associated with the nineteenth century.'[/B]
If you've read Harry Potter you'll know what this is like, the main characters thoughts and perceptions are told through the narrative. For instance you'll only ever hear Harry's perspective and feelings in the narration, never other characters. [b]The RotS novel is written in the same way, the chapters always follow a single character and are based from their perceptions. In the chapter in question we are following Yoda.[/B]
Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of the RotS novel is written in Third-person limited narration.
Obviously this comes neither from their inner thoughts, nor it is a description of feelings of some other character. I'd say this is when the omniscient narrator comes into play.
It seems that this is also the case with "the most devastatingly powerful" Yoda.
Even if this was not the case, the narration makes it clear it is his own thoughts.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of the RotS novel is written in Third-person limited narration.
Its certainly not "most" of the novel. The style of the ROTS novel is that it goes back and forth between the narrator and third person narration. Il prove this when I get home and get my ROTS novel out.
^ So Yoda considers himself "the Avatar of Light" and "Supreme Master"
That's supreme arrogance. The same arrogance he was accusing a lot of the Jedi of falling into in AOTC. That's pretty unlikely.
The truth he saw was: "that he... just didn't have it."
Everything in between was the narrator's description of who "he" is.
"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:
A phenomenal pilot who doesn't like to fly. A devastating warrior who'd rather not fight. A negotiator without peer who frankly prefers to sit alone in a quiet cave and meditate."
^ Theres no way that is 3rd person narrative unless you're really telling me Obi-Wan thinks of himself as a devastating warrior, phenomenal piolt and a negotiator without peer!
We know he's wayyy to humble to have such a high opinion of himself. It continues:
"Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. And yet, inside, he feels like he's none of these things."
^ He inside feels like None of these things! So theres no way the devastating warrior, phenomenal pilot and negotiator without peer are his thoughts, or his over arrogant opinion of himself! Its the narrator talking, and its the narrator telling us who and what Obi-Wan is.
We have further proof on the next page:
" Though HE DOES NOT KNOW IT, his relationship with Anakin has molded him into the great Jedi Qui-Gon always said he might someday be.
IT IS CHARACTERISTIC OF OBI-WAN THAT HE IS ENTIRELY UNAWARE OF THIS."
^ He does not know it, and he is entirely unaware of this.. So clearly this whole description is not 3rd person narrative. Further on more proof of his humbleness:
"Being named to the Council came as a complete surprise; even now, he is sometimes astonished by the faith the Jedi Council has in his abilities, and the credit they give to his wisdom."
So this further proves the devastating warrior, phenomenal pilot and negotiator without peer are certainly not Obi-Wan's thoughts, The whole passage was clearly not 3rd person narrative, and kind of proves false this idea that most or all of the ROTS novel is in the 3rd person narrative.
If we know the "This is Obi-Wan Kenobi" is the narrator talking, then we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker," and "This is Count Dooku" passages were also the narrator talking and not 3rd person narrative.
And so im willing to bet that the description of Yoda as the Most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known, of Mace having Unmatched Lightsaber skills and of Agen Kolar and crewe being some of the best swordsmen in history are all facts about these characters being stated by the Narrator, and NOT 3rd person Narrative..
Apart from where it specifies "he knew", "his thoughts", "his realisation", or where we get a direct quote from their mind e.g. "Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"
Only those are the 3rd person narratives in this novel at least.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I said most, not all.
This sounded like you meant the whole book is like that:
Originally posted by Nephthys
The RotS novel is written in the same way, the chapters always follow a single character and are based from their perceptions.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You posted snippets from a single chapter, the [b]opening narration chapter. The rest of the novel is not like that.[/B]
Like I said we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker" and "This is Count Dooku" follow the same narrative style.
And Im not sure I agree the whole rest of the novel is 3rd person narrative. I think its kind of clear when we are in the characters mind like the direct quote I posted of Dooku during the Obi-Wan/ Skywalker fight: "Dooku's felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"
Originally posted by Nephthys
Check out the Dooku fight and how it switched between different perspectives, going from Dooku to Anakin. The novel is mostly written in 3rd person limited.
It switched from 3rd person narratives and back to the author as well. It really seems to me all the descriptions of characters were like Obi-Wan's.
I agree a lot of the novel is in the 3rd person narrative, but I feel like its quite clear when we are in a character's head like this:
"In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."
Throughout the novel(even after the opening narration) there are clear instances of author narration. For instance:
Chapter 14 Free fall in the Dark:
"A chill wind scoured the Chancellor's private landing deck at the Senate Office Building. Anakin stood wrapped in his cloak, chin to his chest, staring down at the deck below his feet. He didn't feel the chill, or the wind."
^ So whom was the 3rd person narrator here? Anakin? He noticed a chill wind which he didn't even feel? Of course not. I can point out more, because they are not difficlut to find.
Point being the narrative style of the novel is clearly to switch between author and 3rd person. And its usually quite clear when the 3rd person narrative is being used like Iv already pointed out.
So people who argue that the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" quote is a 3rd person narrative are free to interpret it as that, but will need better reasoning than "because most the novel is like that."
Imo it was an author narrative description of the character, of who "he" is like the Obi-Wan description at the beginning of the novel. The third person narrative was the realisation that "he" had.