The Jedi Knight vs Yoda

Started by Nephthys3 pages
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This sounded like you meant the whole book is like that:

But before then I said that 'Most of the RotS novel'.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Like I said we can pretty much assume the "This is Anakin Skywalker" and "This is Count Dooku" follow the same narrative style.

And Im not sure I agree the whole rest of the novel is 3rd person narrative. I think its kind of clear when we are in the characters mind like the direct quote I posted of Dooku during the Obi-Wan/ Skywalker fight: "Dooku's felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?"

3rd person limited narration is a lot more subtle than directly stating that its from the characters perspective. At no point in Harry Potter does Rowling make a point of specifying the text is from his perspective, it just is. You are correct with that last quote, the way to tell 3rd person limited is if we have sentences like 'Dooku felt himself' and we only ever have Dooku's side of the exchange in the text up till it switches perspectives..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It switched from 3rd person narratives and back to the author as well. It really seems to me all the descriptions of characters were like Obi-Wan's.

I agree a lot of the novel is in the 3rd person narrative, but I feel like its quite clear when we are in a character's head like this:

"In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

This will be alot less complicated if we just read the actual part in question.

'There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .'

In my opinion this is definately written in 3rd person limited narration. The entire passage is concerned with Yoda's thought process and includes Yoda's direct thoughts upon this realisation. The part I highlighted is a triple reinforcement of Yoda's perspective being dominant.

wait, Vitiate isn't more powerful than Sidious. that's ridiculous. he was going to be beaten by only Revan and the Exile before Scourge's interference. Not exactly a super-formidable team...

Originally posted by truejedi
wait, Vitiate isn't more powerful than Sidious. that's ridiculous. he was going to be beaten by only Revan and the Exile before Scourge's interference. Not exactly a super-formidable team...

No sweeping generalizations here.

Would Revan and the Exile be able to defeat Sidious? mmm

Hmm... Probably not, IMO. In the book the Exile wasn't impressive and I could see her getting blitzed just as Sidious blitzed the three stooges that accompanied Mace. Revan would likely give him hell though.

Originally posted by Nephthys

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

[b]It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.
[/B]

I see your point and it makes sense. The only thing I would point out is before we are told Yoda's truth, it seems to me the narrator has already described him as "the Avatar of Light" right above the part you've highlighted.

Which is why I think when we are told again "The Avatar of Light. Supreme Master of the Jedi.." e.t.c it seems to me to be going back to the author narrative to describe who "he" is. Then back to the 3rd person narrative to discuss the realisation "he" has had.

Because I still find it extremely hard to believe that Yoda considers himself "The Avatar of Light," and "Supreme Master of the Jedi."

Its just too arrogant a thought for him to have about himself, thereby diqualifying him as the Avatar of Light imo.

Mace's or Obi-Wan's more humble opinions of themselves would better qualify them as the Avatar of Light if that is the case.

Originally posted by ares834
Hmm... Probably not, IMO. In the book the Exile wasn't impressive and I could see her getting blitzed just as Sidious blitzed the three stooges that accompanied Mace. Revan would likely give him hell though.

Seeing as Revan couldn't do shit to the Sith Emperor I'm going with Sids.

Sidious would rip Revan a new ******* with a lightsaber alone, the force too would lean heavily in his favor.
As for this fight. Yoda takes this, he is the superior saber and force combatant. Yoda sent the most powerful lord of the Sith in history packing with a single Force Push. When has the JK ever displayed that sort of offensive TK

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I see your point and it makes sense. The only thing I would point out is before we are told Yoda's truth, it seems to me the narrator has already described him as "the Avatar of Light" right above the part you've highlighted.

Which is why I think when we are told again "The Avatar of Light. Supreme Master of the Jedi.." e.t.c it seems to me to be going back to the author narrative to describe who "he" is. Then back to the 3rd person narrative to discuss the realisation "he" has had.

Because I still find it extremely hard to believe that Yoda considers himself "The Avatar of Light," and "Supreme Master of the Jedi."

Its just too arrogant a thought for him to have about himself, thereby diqualifying him as the Avatar of Light imo.

Mace's or Obi-Wan's more humble opinions of themselves would better qualify them as the Avatar of Light if that is the case.

Its fine if you don't believe it just out of personal opinion, as long as you realise that thats just personal opinion. And you're wrong about Yoda being 'too humble' to consider himself the supreme master of the Jedi, simply because that is what he factually is. Yoda was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for quite some time, so clearly he does consider himself to be, frankly, the 'best' Jedi alive if he feels he's up to the task of leading them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its fine if you don't believe it just out of personal opinion, as long as you realise that thats just personal opinion. And you're wrong about Yoda being 'too humble' to consider himself the supreme master of the Jedi, simply because [b]that is what he factually is. Yoda was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for quite some time, so clearly he does consider himself to be, frankly, the 'best' Jedi alive if he feels he's up to the task of leading them. [/B]

Debating that quote is meaningless considering this quote from the inventor of canon himself Leland Chee
"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

Meaning Sidious as of ROTS was the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Debating that quote is meaningless considering this quote from the inventor of canon himself Leland Chee
"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. [B]The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.
The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."[/b]

I don't think anyone would argue that they were the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides at that time. Unfortunately your quote provides no context. Are they the most powerful in all history? Because that seems to be what you're implying. Of course if you think that Leland Chee's (whose job is solely concerned with continuity) quote is binding then I guess Sidious and Yoda are the greatest practicioners of the Light and Dark in any era forevers. Luke? Pfft, **** manipulating a black hole, Leland Chee says Yoda's teh strongest ever. Abeloth vapes an entire city in a fit of rage and is stated to be 12 times as strong as Luke? Nope, Sidious is Numero Uno! 😖arcasm:

The quote doesn't extend past the duel itself, so its invalid in this fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

Meaning Sidious as of ROTS was the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Unfortunately Sidious isn't in this thread.

And if we could not get into that discussion, this thread would be a lot less painful.

Edit: Wookiepedia says Chee's job is 'Continuity Database Administrator'. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think anyone would argue that they were the most powerful practitioners of the Light and Dark sides [b]at that time. Unfortunately your quote provides no context. Are they the most powerful in all history? Because that seems to be what you're implying. Of course if you think that Leland Chee's (whose job is solely concerned with continuity) quote is binding then I guess Sidious and Yoda are the greatest practicioners of the Light and Dark in any era forevers. Luke? Pfft, **** manipulating a black hole, Leland Chee says Yoda's teh strongest ever. Abeloth vapes an entire city in a fit of rage and is stated to be 12 times as strong as Luke? Nope, Sidious is Numero Uno! 😖arcasm:

No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.


The quote doesn't extend past the duel itself, so its invalid in this fight.

Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.


Unfortunately Sidious isn't in this thread.

And if we could not get into that discussion, this thread would be a lot less painful.

Edit: Wookiepedia says Chee's job is 'Continuity Database Administrator'. 😬 [/B]

Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is. Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that point is pretty much canon. The only thing the JK would have on him would be swordsmanship and honestly even that is up in the air. Yoda is the singular greatest duelist in the "Golden Age of the Jedi Order". Great enough to send duelists like Dooku fleeing.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.

Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.

Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is. Yoda being the most powerful Jedi up to that point is pretty much canon. The only thing the JK would have on him would be swordsmanship and honestly even that is up in the air. Yoda is the singular greatest duelist in the "Golden Age of the Jedi Order". Great enough to send duelists like Dooku fleeing.

Ah, finally. I've been waiting for that call for hours!

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they are the most powerful up to that point. That is what I am arguing.

Where does it say that? All it says is that they were 'the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides'. It mentions nothing about whether it was up to that point, in all of history, or just at that time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh I disagree, Yoda being able to match the most powerful Sith Lord in history blow for blow is damned impressive. As is being to catch and redirect his lightning.

I remember Yoda having his lightsaber knocked out of his hand and himself getting blown backwards when he tries that actually. 😮

Whereas the Jedi Knight was able to block Vitiates Lightning, which is arguably more powerful and deadly than RotS Sidious'.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wookiepedia isn't the official stance on canon, Chee is.

I didn't quote Wookiepedia as saying anything about canon. Only about what Chee's job is. Are you saying that he isn't the 'Continuity Database Administrator'? Because if so, what is his job out of curiousity?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah, finally. I've been waiting for that call for hours!

I thought that ship already sailed?

I don't know what you're talking about. awewut

Rawfle mayo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its fine if you don't believe it just out of personal opinion, as long as you realise that thats just personal opinion.

The quote is up for debate. But I can sense you dnt consider your opinion as fallible, only mine 😕

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you're wrong about Yoda being 'too humble' to consider himself the supreme master of the Jedi, simply because [b]that is what he factually is. Yoda was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order for quite some time, so clearly he does consider himself to be, frankly, the 'best' Jedi alive if he feels he's up to the task of leading them. [/B]

Well being Master of the Jedi order is factual enough. But Calling himself "Supreme" Master is just adding arrogance to the table.

And what about "The Avatar of Light" which is the main point I was making. You consider that a fact as well. Because if Yoda thinks of himself as such, that would automatically disqualify him as such imo.

The true Avatar of Light would be someone more humble like Mace or Obi-Wan if that is the case.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Unfortunately Sidious isn't in this thread.

Yes but when we are told by canon sources that he is the most powerful sith lord in history, and we have seen how well Yoda stood up to him in an all out fight, sabers and force fight, then that kind of brings more validity to the statement that Yoda was also the most powerful in the history of the jedi up until that point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say that? All it says is that they were 'the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides'. It mentions nothing about whether it was up to that point, in all of history, or just at that time.

A fair point. However all the facts on the plate point to Yoda being more powerful:
* Fighting on par with the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
* Being Grand Master of the Jedi Order during its golden age.
* The ROTS novel quote.
* Achieved Mastery of all VII forms of lightsaber combat sans Vaapad variant of Juyo.
* Sending Darth Sidious himself packing with a Force Push.
* Even the arrogant Darth Sidious, knew that it was a very good possibility that he could have lost to Yoda, and opted to retreat.
* Called by source material to be the most devastating foe darkness has ever known.
The Jedi Knight:
* Champion of the Light of his era
* Defeated Vitiate, but granted Meetra and Revan could have done the same.
* Able to resist the Emperor's Mental dominations.
* Capable of blocking the Emperor's lightning with his lightsaber.


I remember Yoda having his lightsaber knocked out of his hand and himself getting blown backwards when he tries that actually. 😮

Screen play says Yoda blocks some of his lightning before. And he doesn't lose that match up. Or did you miss Sidious groaning in agony? They were both blown back.


Whereas the Jedi Knight was able to block Vitiates Lightning, which is arguably more powerful and deadly than RotS Sidious'.

Arguably is operative here. From what I've seen Vitiate's charged lightning is what could even be argued to be more powerful than Sidious'. However that is never seen being used against the JK character. His non-charged lightning was being batted aside, dodged and outright redirected right back onto the Emperor by Revan.
Also Sidious' lightning almost made Mace Windu eat his own saber, killed Darth Plagueis, and was capable of incinerating legions of Stormtroopers. When has Vitiate's non-charged ever demonstrated the same?
Even better yet was even someone like Galen Marek was canonically "no match for the power of Darth Sidious". And yet his lightning could topple AT-ATs, and vaporize storm troopers.

I didn't quote Wookiepedia as saying anything about canon. Only about what Chee's job is. Are you saying that he isn't the 'Continuity Database Administrator'? Because if so, what is his job out of curiousity?

No I am not, but Continuity Database Administrator is charged with keeping the SW universe in order.
In Lightsabers and the force Yoda seems to be superior.
The Knights only advantage being his physical strength (arguable)
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Hmm the fact that you have that image ready, and your constant homophobic remarks, I'd wager you are a gay yourself.
whistling1