Originally posted by carver9No why would I say that...
Newjack...please explain what your argument was during this entire scuffle. Were you arguing that the only time a true strong Savage appeared was during the time he fought Thor?
Ok let me make an example for you carver.
Scenario 1)
Let's say you have character A.
You don't know how strong character A is.
Now they fight character B.
Normally this would give a good guess as to what level character A is.
But character B's strength varies which is a problem. Why is this cause character B can be at low range some of the time and a high range the other time. There is no way to know what level this character B is at except for the things he is doing in the fight and the person he is fighting. It doesn't matter if half the time Character B is at a mid range level. Cause you can not accurately depict what level character B is on unless those things are present. He could logically be on any of his range of levels.
Now would you say definitively Character A is at Character Bs max level mid level low level. Remember the only thing you have to judge on is the fact that Character A fought Character B.
No you wouldn't they are for sure this level. You might say maybe since Character B spends the Bulk of his time at such and such level odds are Character A would be at that level but it's not a definitive or good logical stance to take. You have to be willing to also take into account that Character A maybe at Character Bs lower level cause it is there, and it is a possibility.
If you want to find Character As definitive level you would take into account other things besides their fights with B.
Now for what you guys are trying to do.
We will add a character C to this Scenario. Now Character C is very strong we know this to be true based on his feats. Character C and Character A have never fought.
Now character C has fought Character B multiple times, some would argue character B even being able to beat Character C in strength at sometimes. But this is only if Character B is operating at that high level. We know for a fact Character B can operate at a lower level.
Now you guys are trying to take Scenario 1 and plug it here to prove A = B = C and therefore A = C
The problem being your connecting character B is variable which means the statement A = C is invalid.
Why because there is no way to conclude which level character A falls under simply by testing their might against character B. Cause it could be possible Character A is in fact stronger than Character C but you must also be willing to allow for the possibility that Character A could also be way weaker than Character C.
Now that's the problem you guys are using faulty logic without being willing to account for the fact that your idea could also be false based on the idea that Character A fights character B equally and Character B fights Character C equally does not mean Character A is equal to Character C
Because A can in theory equal any of Bs ranges of strength.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Originally posted by Newjak
No why would I say that...Ok let me make an example for you carver.
Scenario 1)
Let's say you have character A.You don't know how strong character A is.
Now they fight character B.
Normally this would give a good guess as to what level character A is.
But character B's strength varies which is a problem. Why is this cause character B can be at low range some of the time and a high range the other time. There is no way to know what level this character B is at except for the things he is doing in the fight and the person he is fighting. It doesn't matter if half the time Character B is at a mid range level. Cause you can not accurately depict what level character B is on unless those things are present. He could logically be on any of his range of levels.
Now would you say definitively Character A is at Character Bs max level mid level low level. Remember the only thing you have to judge on is the fact that Character A fought Character B.
No you wouldn't they are for sure this level. You might say maybe since Character B spends the Bulk of his time at such and such level odds are Character A would be at that level but it's not a definitive or good logical stance to take. You have to be willing to also take into account that Character A maybe at Character Bs lower level cause it is there, and it is a possibility.
If you want to find Character As definitive level you would take into account other things besides their fights with B.
Now for what you guys are trying to do.
We will add a character C to this Scenario. Now Character C is very strong we know this to be true based on his feats. Character C and Character A have never fought.
Now character C has fought Character B multiple times, some would argue character B even being able to beat Character C in strength at sometimes. But this is only if Character B is operating at that high level. We know for a fact Character B can operate at a lower level.
Now you guys are trying to take Scenario 1 and plug it here to prove A = B = C and therefore A = C
The problem being your connecting character B is variable which means the statement A = C is invalid.
Why because there is no way to conclude which level character A falls under simply by testing their might against character B. Cause it could be possible Character A is in fact stronger than Character C but you must also be willing to allow for the possibility that Character A could also be way weaker than Character C.
Now that's the problem you guys are using faulty logic without being willing to account for the fact that your idea could also be false based on the idea that Character A fights character B equally and Character B fights Character C equally does not mean Character A is equal to Character C
Because A can in theory equal any of Bs ranges of strength.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Gotcha...so basically we need to exclude people like Gladiator, Doomsday, Hulk, hell, basically half of the people on KMC since majority of their powers thrive on the type of mood they are in or do we look at the AVERAGE showings with each of these indoviduals and try to paint a picture of where their power level is at.
Doomsday, even though his power thrives off of rage is at average a top tier, even if he have low showings...like steel being able to stop a full fledged punch from him...him taking panels and panels to take out booster gold...his average portrayal is top tier.
Savage Hulk, even though he have low showings like the ones you've mentioned, his AVERAGE showings portray him as an elite.
Gladiator...even though he has low showings, his average showings portray him as an elite.
Do you get this Newjack? It's pretty simple if you think about it.
Originally posted by carver9Why are you excluding them from KMC... We generally assume for a match they are operating at their best levels shown. I'm never going to argue Hulk at his weakest.
Gotcha...so basically we need to exclude people like Gladiator, Doomsday, Hulk, hell, basically half of the people on KMC since majority of their powers thrive on the type of mood they are in or do we look at the AVERAGE showings with each of these indoviduals and try to paint a picture of where their power level is at.Doomsday, even though his power thrives off of rage is at average a top tier, even if he have low showings...like steel being able to stop a full fledged punch from him...him taking panels and panels to take out booster gold...his average portrayal is top tier.
Savage Hulk, even though he have low showings like the ones you've mentioned, his AVERAGE showings portray him as an elite.
Gladiator...even though he has low showings, his average showings portray him as an elite.
Do you get this Newjack? It's pretty simple if you think about it.
The problem stems from trying to use it like Scenario 1 to definitively prove what a certain character's power level is based off that.
And there are still logical conclusions you can come to. For instance if Character A hit Character B with a building then we know for sure Character a can do that.
Or you can look at the fights Character A has had with other characters who are a lot less variable in power.
The problem once again is using Character B as the defining instance to logically prove a character's level.
Originally posted by Newjak
Why are you excluding them from KMC... We generally assume for a match they are operating at their best levels shown. I'm never going to argue Hulk at his weakest.The problem stems from trying to use it like Scenario 1 to definitively prove what a certain character's power level is based off that.
And there are still logical conclusions you can come to. For instance if Character A hit Character B with a building then we know for sure Character a can do that.
Or you can look at the fights Character A has had with other characters who are a lot less variable in power.
The problem once again is using Character B as the defining instance to logically prove a character's level.
But you are still missing the point. On AVERAGE, Savage Hulk is a powerhouse. In order for you to think anything different, you would have to focus on his low showings. This is what you are doing...you are leaning more on his low showings instead of looking at his average portrayal. On AVERAGE Savage Hulk fights Genis and does good, fight Gladiator and beats him, fights Thor and does good, fight the Avengers, Hercules, and the list goes on. You are pointing out him fighting Rhino, a smart Rhino that tactically beat Savage, using Thing who admitted on panel hulk is to powerful for him.
Then you have the nerve to say, there is no such thing as low showings for Hulk but for Supes Surfer, and Thor, it exist. WTF. Newjack, you are digging yourself in a hole.
Here lies the problem. A fundamental misunderstanding of the Hulks dynamic strength due to lack of actually reading the character. Hulk, that is Character B, having dynamic strength doesnt mean that on any given day he can end up on any end of the totem pole . It means that he starts off pretty high on on the totem pole and gets stronger as the fight goes on. Hulk like any other character can have low showings which portray him as being weaker than he usually is. What your doing is denying the fact that Hulk can have legitimate low showings by rationalizing into his powerset a cause for his low showings . Hence you would have to render incidents like Hulk being choked out by a snake valid by suggesting that at that point Hulk was weak enough to be choked out by a snake. i.e barely even a class 1. And then when Hulk was knocked out by Captain America you would have to say that he was so weak at that point that his durability was barely even superhuman etc etc. You would have to grant that in every situation in which Hulk has been koed or affected by characters hugely below his station (i.e Silver Surfer/ Black Panther level PIS), it wasnt PIS or a low feat but that rather he was simply that weak at that time. Such a notion is simply absurd but that is the direct implication of Newjaks reasoning.
Originally posted by Naija boyWhy is that such a problem to believe that Hulk can have that low of a level?
Here lies the problem. A fundamental misunderstanding of the Hulks dynamic strength due to lack of actually reading the character. Hulk, that is Character B, having dynamic strength doesnt mean that on any given day he can end up on any end of the totem pole . It means that he starts off pretty high on on the totem pole and gets stronger as the fight goes on. Hulk like any other character can have low showings which portray him as being weaker than he usually is. [B]What your doing is denying the fact that Hulk can have legitimate low showings by rationalizing into his powerset a cause for his low showings . Hence you would have to render incidents like Hulk being choked out by a snake valid by suggesting that at that point Hulk was weak enough to be choked out by a snake. i.e barely even a class 1. And then when Hulk was knocked out by Captain America you would have to say that he was so weak at that point that his durability was barely even superhuman etc etc. You would have to grant that in every situation in which Hulk has been koed or affected by characters hugely below his station (i.e Silver Surfer/ Black Panther level PIS), it wasnt PIS or a low feat but that rather he was simply that weak at that time. Such a notion is simply absurd but that is the direct implication of Newjaks reasoning. [/B]
It is built into the character. I mean he has had problems before with Abom, thing, Rhino. People who are clearly on the lower end of the brick totem pole. It's a fundamental part of the character that his strength is dynamic. Even if you want to assume he starts of on average high how much average higher is he in Namor/Black Bolt strength range normally cause that is still a fairly large gap till you get to the high end tier.
It's not like we are talking about the range of Hulk being 100s or even thousands of tons. We are talking high end Hulk vs mid range hulk we are talking extremely large gaps of power, which still leaves to extremely large range in which a person can fall into.
Originally posted by Newjak
Why is that such a problem to believe that Hulk can have that low of a level?
I thought that you just said that you were only willing to use a character at their best? Savage Hulk slapped Luke Cage out back in the day, and would do it today as well, if he was still the persona of the current Hulk, and then we see Cage put the Rhino down. Just saying. If you're going to bring up examples of a characters highest showings then by all means go for it. However, being KO'd off panel by Captain America, Spiderman, or defeated by the Rhino kind of falls away from what you were meaning to do.
Originally posted by StoicHow does that fall away from what I'm trying to do.
I thought that you just said that you were only willing to use a character at their best? Savage Hulk slapped Luke Cage out back in the day, and would do it today as well, if he was still the persona of the current Hulk, and then we see Cage put the Rhino down. Just saying. If you're going to bring up examples of a characters highest showings then by all means go for it. However, being KO'd off panel by Captain America, Spiderman, or defeated by the Rhino kind of falls away from what you were meaning to do.
If I'm arguing Hulk vs Juggeranut in a match I'm not gonna use Hulk's lower showings when I would rather use Hulk's higher showings to prove something 😬
That doesn't mean Hulk's strength level isn't any less variable or that Hulk can reasonably be portrayed at a lower level.
I don't know why you guys are acting like I'm attacking the Hulk. It's not like I'm saying he's a weak character, or that it's some how wrong to say Hulk's level changes.
It does and the reason it does was built into the character. I'm sorry if that offends you guys somehow. Hulk can be a weak enough to Abom give him a fight or he can be strong enough to rip planets apart. It's not like I'm saying that somehow Hulk still can't rip planets apart he can.
The only reason you guys don't want to believe it because if you accept it then it weakens your stance on WBH being so strong no one can contend with him. You just can't be happy that WBH is amazing strong no he's got to be so much stronger because you just want him to be. And the logic you are trying to use to get to it is in fact piss poor logic cause in order for it to work you actually have to shit on one of the core facts about him. His strength isn't always in the same palce, its why the angrier he gets the stronger he gets. It's actually a part of him.
lol, hulk in this thread at his weakest is banner, but he had total control over his emotions and thus the transformation to banner is practically out the window...and even then he can go from banner to diet worldbreaker in an instant.
in wwh he was, on average strong enough to go par with classic juggernaut, completely dismiss attacks from thing, colossus, etc and shut those characters down swiftly, etc
Originally posted by Newjak
I don't know why you guys are acting like I'm attacking the Hulk. It's not like I'm saying he's a weak character, or that it's some how wrong to say Hulk's level changes.It does and the reason it does was built into the character. I'm sorry if that offends you guys somehow. Hulk can be a weak enough to Abom give him a fight or he can be strong enough to rip planets apart. It's not like I'm saying that somehow Hulk still can't rip planets apart he can.
The only reason you guys don't want to believe it because if you accept it then it weakens your stance on WBH being so strong no one can contend with him. You just can't be happy that WBH is amazing strong no he's got to be so much stronger because you just want him to be. And the logic you are trying to use to get to it is in fact piss poor logic cause in order for it to work you actually have to shit on one of the core facts about him. His strength isn't always in the same palce, its why the angrier he gets the stronger he gets. It's actually a part of him.
The problem here is that the OP of this thread is calling for WB Hulk. The Wendigo (original), and Bi-Beast at base are class 100's, and they were given an amp that shot their base up to 1000 times normal and the Hulk outside of turning it up to WB status was playing with them. The numbers say that Thor even at 20x his strength would still be lacking to that Hulk even before he went off to the Dark Dimension, and said that he was no longer holding back like he did during WW Hulk, and his juggling of the giant forms of Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.
Based on how well a regular Merged Hulk did against Thor in the arctic, and how much more powerful he was written up during HOTM, I would say without a doubt that Thor runs quite a bit short of the mark in terms of the necessary power that he would need, to go round for round with the Hulk, as he continues to grow stronger, more durable, and gains faster burst speeds. Do numbers lie?
Originally posted by StoicThe problem is people are using the notion of Wendigo = Savage Hulk = Thor to say that Wendigo was 1000s times stronger than Thor when Wendigo fought WBH.
The problem here is that the OP of this thread is calling for WB Hulk. The Wendigo (original), and Bi-Beast at base are class 100's, and they were given an amp that shot their base up to 1000 times normal and the Hulk outside of turning it up to WB status was playing with them. The numbers say that Thor even at 20x his strength would still be lacking to that Hulk even before he went off to the Dark Dimension, and said that he was no longer holding back like he did during WW Hulk, and his juggling of the giant forms of Wendigo, and Bi-Beast.Based on how well a regular Merged Hulk did against Thor in the arctic, and how much more powerful he was written up during HOTM, I would say without a doubt that Thor runs quite a bit short of the mark in terms of the necessary power that he would need, to go round for round with the Hulk, as he continues to grow stronger, more durable, and gains faster burst speeds. Do numbers lie?
Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is people are using the notion of Wendigo = Savage Hulk = Thor to say that Wendigo was 1000s times stronger than Thor when Wendigo fought WBH.
The notion of Wendigo going head to head with Sasquatch and the Savage Hulk, and not losing, and nearly killing Sasquatch in the process, and at his base strength level pretty much indicates to me that he was on the Savage Hulks level. The notion that Wendigo has fought against the Savage Hulk alone several times and for prolonged periods of time indicates that the Wendigo was operating on the level of the Savage Hulk.
The Savage Hulk has gone up against Thor for prolonged periods just as he went against the Wendigo for prolonged periods. I could see what you are saying, but the Hulk was written for years as starting out at the 75 ton range, and it taking him 5 minutes to break the 100 ton range. There is no excuse, as these are concrete numbers, and are further proven by the mythology behind the Savage Hulk,
The battles that have been waged between the Wendigo and the Savage Hulk for prolonged periods have always ended in stalemate. Was Thor somehow more of a threat than Wendigo, that the Savage Hulk took it up even higher despite battling the creature, while enraged for prolonged periods? Evidence runs contrary to this.
With this knowledge, and the knowledge of it being stated on panel, that Wendigo alone was augmented 1000 times greater than his base stats, coupled with an augmented Bi-Beast of the same power hike, it would be easy to paint a picture that they exceeded Thor at a mere 20x amplification. This is the truth, and anyone that has followed along with this particular comic book mythology would and should be able to see this regardless of whom it was, and whether it was Thor, Hercules, The Forgotten One or any number of other class 100 characters. The Hulk was simply on another level than them in terms of physical might.
Now according to on panel evidence, the Hulk was taking it easy on the augmented Wendigo, and his partner the equally augmented Bi-Beast, and was clearly shown to have increased his strength dramatically when he began battling Betty (Red She Hulk) in the Dark Dimension. He even goes on to state on panel that he was holding back.
Now we can go round and round for 1000 more posts, but do you really believe that at his (Hulk's) height of power when he was in the Dark Dimension, that Thor at 20x strength could brawl it out with him, and win? This is all that matters, the rest is etched in stone, but this is the main question. Yes or No can Thor battle it out toe to toe with WB Hulk at his height while being 20x his base?
Originally posted by StoicThe rest is not etched in stone.
The notion of Wendigo going head to head with Sasquatch and the Savage Hulk, and not losing, and nearly killing Sasquatch in the process, and at his base strength level pretty much indicates to me that he was on the Savage Hulks level. The notion that Wendigo has fought against the Savage Hulk alone several times and for prolonged periods of time indicates that the Wendigo was operating on the level of the Savage Hulk.The Savage Hulk has gone up against Thor for prolonged periods just as he went against the Wendigo for prolonged periods. I could see what you are saying, but the Hulk was written for [b]years
as starting out at the 75 ton range, and it taking him 5 minutes to break the 100 ton range. There is no excuse, as these are concrete numbers, and are further proven by the mythology behind the Savage Hulk,The battles that have been waged between the Wendigo and the Savage Hulk for prolonged periods have always ended in stalemate. Was Thor somehow more of a threat than Wendigo, that the Savage Hulk took it up even higher despite battling the creature, while enraged for prolonged periods? Evidence runs contrary to this.
With this knowledge, and the knowledge of it being stated on panel, that Wendigo alone was augmented 1000 times greater than his base stats, coupled with an augmented Bi-Beast of the same power hike, it would be easy to paint a picture that they exceeded Thor at a mere 20x amplification. This is the truth, and anyone that has followed along with this particular comic book mythology would and should be able to see this regardless of whom it was, and whether it was Thor, Hercules, The Forgotten One or any number of other class 100 characters. The Hulk was simply on another level than them in terms of physical might.
Now according to on panel evidence, the Hulk was taking it easy on the augmented Wendigo, and his partner the equally augmented Bi-Beast, and was clearly shown to have increased his strength dramatically when he began battling Betty (Red She Hulk) in the Dark Dimension. He even goes on to state on panel that he was holding back.
Now we can go round and round for 1000 more posts, but do you really believe that at his (Hulk's) height of power when he was in the Dark Dimension, that Thor at 20x strength could brawl it out with him, and win? This is all that matters, the rest is etched in stone, but this is the main question. Yes or No can Thor battle it out toe to toe with WB Hulk at his height while being 20x his base? [/B]
That's the whole point it doesn't matter how many times wendigo fought Savage Hulk or how many times Hulk fought Thor.
Thor by himself could still be 1000s of times stronger than Wendigo even though they have both fought Savage Hulk. Thor could also be at classic wendigos level as well. You just don't know.
The only thing to go from there on then is do I feel Thor could replicate WBH's feat. Or a 20xs time Thor could.
Yeah possibly.
Do I think he will win this fight yeah I think he can. 20xs Thor strength being released on you is a force to be reckoned with for sure.
Originally posted by Newjak
The rest is not etched in stone.That's the whole point it doesn't matter how many times wendigo fought Savage Hulk or how many times Hulk fought Thor.
Thor by himself could still be 1000s of times stronger than Wendigo even though they have both fought Savage Hulk. Thor could also be at classic wendigos level as well. You just don't know.
The only thing to go from there on then is do I feel Thor could replicate WBH's feat. Or a 20xs time Thor could.
Yeah possibly.
Do I think he will win this fight yeah I think he can. 20xs Thor strength being released on you is a force to be reckoned with for sure.
Well then this is where we most certainly will continue to disagree. Outside of WB Hulk, Thor tussled with the Merged Hulk in the arctic, and he was far below what he was written to be during the HOTM story line.
Let's look at it this way. If Thor was ever close to being in Warriors Madness without it directly stating that he was, it would have been when he fought the Merged Hulk in the Arctic. He was not holding back one bit. Again though Thor has never been confirmed on panel to have ever reached Warriors Madness from what I know of, so this could all be a myth, or hyperbole. What we do know is that Thor has been seen wearing his belt of strength, and Gauntlets, we even saw him with an enchanted shield, while facing off against what was said to be a Thanos clone which has never made much sense to me, since the apparent clone knew everything that the original Thanos knew about fighting Odin, and even stated on panel that Odin had beaten him, but whatever right?
Let's focus in on what happened in the Arctic, and how Thor lost several tests of strength to the Hulk, as he was tossed about, and even promised not to fall again even if tempted. Don't get me wrong, no one lost or won that battle decisively, but if I were to judge who had the upper hand i would have given the Hulk the slight nod, and not because of favoritism, but because of what I saw on panel.
Let's also focus in on the merged Hulk being KO'd by the Juggernaut while dressed as a construction worker, and nearly drowned in a pond of water. let's focus on War Hulk who slow the Juggernaut down so much that he appeared to not be advancing at all, or at a very slow rate of speed (1 inch per hour).
Let's focus on WW Hulk slowing the Juggernaut down far faster than he did than when he was War Hulk, when they fought briefly at Xaviers Estate.
Now let's focus in on how well Thor did against the Juggernaut without the use of mystics.
When the Hulk fought the Juggernaut in a relatively calm state and was able to bring him to a near halt despite the considerable power that Cain was exerting. and we know that he was exerting a considerable amount or when the Hulk side stepped him, he would have never moved in that direction at the rate of speed that he was traveling. Again the Hulk was holding back in comparison to what he did at the height of his power in the Dark Dimension.
A slugfest between Thor and the Hulk with what we know of and without going into the unknown favors the Hulk, because there is actual quantifiable evidence, and feats to back him. Thor has no quantifiable Warrior Madness, coupled with his gauntlets, and belt of strength feats. A time must come when the unknown and unproven must take a back seat to the proven, seen, and quatifiable.
Originally posted by Newjak
The rest is not etched in stone.That's the whole point it doesn't matter how many times wendigo fought Savage Hulk or how many times Hulk fought Thor.
Thor by himself could still be 1000s of times stronger than Wendigo even though they have both fought Savage Hulk. Thor could also be at classic wendigos level as well. You just don't know.
The only thing to go from there on then is do I feel Thor could replicate WBH's feat. Or a 20xs time Thor could.
Yeah possibly.
Do I think he will win this fight yeah I think he can. 20xs Thor strength being released on you is a force to be reckoned with for sure.
Savage Hulk said that Wendigo is one of the strongest beings he has faced.
Neither Bi Beast nor Wendigo are as strong as Thor. Wendigo's by nature are incredibly tough which is why Hulk had trouble putting him down. IIRC Wolverine cut a Wendigo's heart out and it was still alive.
Bi Beast gave Thor some trouble when they fought but as soon as Thor got serious he was swiftly beaten down. Twice in quick succession.
Both Bi Beast and Wendigo are certified class 100 bricks but I'd wager that Thor is at least twice as strong as either of them.
With regards to the fight itself Thor's amp is irrelevant as the thread starter didn't specify an increase in durability along with his strength. Hulk wins handily.
Here is where Hulk states Wendigo could be the strongest out of all his enemies but he is stronger.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/TheIncredibleHulkv2-162-10.jpg
