Man follows black teen who seems "suspicious" and kills him.

Started by dadudemon78 pages

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That's true.

I've heard conflicting reports about what injuries Zimmerman had when the cops came for him. Assuming that he really did have a bleeding wound on the back of his head, I think it'd be fairly easy to sell that he was attacked from the back.

Zimmerman claimed his head was being bashed against the concrete, not attacked from behind.

That does not change your point, however, about Zimmers having a chance.

Originally posted by BackFire
Also the fact that Zimmerman's claim that it was he screaming in the background of one of the 911 calls before the gunshots has been all but disproven by independent analysts is going to hurt him.

I saw another "independent analyst" conclude the opposite of what you're stating, here. They claimed it was "too old" to be Trayvon or something like that.

Keep in mind that if this board was full of "pro-Zimmerman" people, I would be stating the opposite arguments. It just seems that this board is more full of "pro-Trayvon" people than pro-Zimmerman people. I do not want to give out the wrong impression.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Stating facts is flaming?

ah so lets say i called you a angry posturing boychild trying to flex nuts on an internet forum (just hypothetical, not actually calling you that 🙂 ), and then backed it up by calling it "fact", its not flaming? it seems i have much to learn about the internet.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
ah so lets say i called you a angry posturing boychild trying to flex nuts on an internet forum (just hypothetical, not actually calling you that 🙂 ), and then backed it up by calling it "fact", its not flaming? it seems i have much to learn about the internet.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
sorry i hurt your feelings bro.

well i truly am. 🙁

That's Charlton Heston

I love how everyone checks the URL for that. 😂

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I love how everyone checks the URL for that. 😂

I was wondering which film it was; though it might have been stated then saw "Cling Eastwood" and I lol'd. I lol'd.

Originally posted by Robtard
I was wondering which film it was; though it might have been stated then saw "Cling Eastwood" and I lol'd. I lol'd.

I think it is one of the Planet of the apes.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think it is one of the Planet of the apes.

Possible; definitely not the first, as he spent the majority of the film running around in hot-n-sexy little shorts.

Originally posted by Robtard
Possible; definitely not the first, as he spent the majority of the film running around in hot-n-sexy little shorts.

It's the NASA logo that tipped me off.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's the NASA logo that tipped me off.

Good call, probably is the first film when they first arrive and before the donning of sexy shorts.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's the NASA logo that tipped me off.

Dude...nice! Good eye.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I saw another "independent analyst" conclude the opposite of what you're stating, here. They claimed it was "too old" to be Trayvon or something like that.

Keep in mind that if this board was full of "pro-Zimmerman" people, I would be stating the opposite arguments. It just seems that this board is more full of "pro-Trayvon" people than pro-Zimmerman people. I do not want to give out the wrong impression.

That sounds less credible considering the ones saying that it is not Zimmerman are based on Zimmerman's actual voice samples in comparison to the voice screaming in the background. Where as the one you mention is based off of nothing, because as far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is no actual voice sample of Trayvon Martin at this time to compare it to, so it's based on an assumption of Martin's voice, vs the actual voice sample of Zimmerman that shows it is not him.

Originally posted by BackFire
That sounds less credible considering the ones saying that it is not Zimmerman are based on Zimmerman's actual voice samples in comparison to the voice screaming in the background. Where as the one you mention is based off of nothing, because as far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is no actual voice sample of Trayvon Martin at this time to compare it to, so it's based on an assumption of Martin's voice, vs the actual voice sample of Zimmerman that shows it is not him.

Happy Birthday...have a good one. 💃

You know what? F**k it. I'm blaming Black people. George wouldn't have had to be afraid of the stereotypical "gangsta thug" if black people ( not all but a good majority) didn't work so hard to perpetrate that myth. Just about every black person I hang out with acts in that manner.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You know what? F**k it. I'm blaming Black people. George wouldn't have had to be afraid of the stereotypical "gangsta thug" if black people ( not all but a good majority) didn't work so hard to perpetrate that myth. Just about every black person I hang out with acts in that manner.

I can maybe understand people who think Trayvon is partially at fault for what happened (though I personally don't see it this way), but what you just said is idiotic.

Originally posted by BackFire
That sounds less credible considering the ones saying that it is not Zimmerman are based on Zimmerman's actual voice samples in comparison to the voice screaming in the background. Where as the one you mention is based off of nothing, because as far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is no actual voice sample of Trayvon Martin at this time to compare it to, so it's based on an assumption of Martin's voice, vs the actual voice sample of Zimmerman that shows it is not him.

That's not a conclusion that can be drawn based off of what I have told you. You cannot determine which one is more credible than the other.

The one I mentioned is based off of a whole bunch of forensic data including matching age to humans. The age of the voice is probably the number one issue, here.

Additionally, the match was said to be at 48% to Zimmerman's voice with no match to Trayvon due to a lack of samples.

The news organization, The Sentinel, contacted Owen. Owen used a software program, Easy Voice Biometrics, in his analysis to the 911 calls for help.

Owen said: "I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else..."

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman..."

The software returned a 48% match to Zimmerman.

Here's the key:

Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

While I am not near as versed as Mr. Owen would be, I do have real world forensic experience in digital audio analysis. That's my major: digital forensics. I have 2 classes left and I graduate (Discrete Math and a speech class).

In order to be an audio expert, like Owen, you need quite a bit of acoustic based biology under your belt. You're supposed to be able to tell the difference, with digital audio tools, between an 18 year old female bonobo (Pan paniscus) and a 13 year old female common chimp (Pan troglodytes). What the audio analysis will do is allow you to discern that both are females, but one belongs to one species and another to the other. It will finally be able to tell you a general age and you should be able to tell that the bonobo is a few years older than the common chimp.

It takes training and lots of practice with the vocalizations from each to get a knack for it. You would compare samples in order to reach this conclusion. Samples from the same animal and same species, to be exact.

Now, in order to say it was zimmerman, we need a much higher certainty. I looked for about 3 minutes for the other analysis that showed the voice was not a young man, but a man around 30, but I could not find it. It has been buried underneath google's preference on the search engine: it is showing only stuff it thinks I want to see so I may not be able to find it with google. I'll check again, but I just do not have websites off the top of my head that are pro-Zimmerman in this case.

It boils down to this: the same audio specialist, Owen, also concluded that Zimmerman said "punks" and NOT "coons". So what can we say about Owen? I say he is being fair and unbiased. I, personally, am not quick to dismiss Owen's expert opinion. If we accept that it matches Zimmerman's voice at a 48% match (meaning, not likely, but still a significant percentage enough to leave a bit of doubt), and that he said "punk" instead of "coon", then we are left with sh*t...still. More doubt and more confusion.

Throw in the fact that the witnesses contradict each other (some say Trayvon went apesh*t straight away, some say that Zimmerman was aggressive and caused the fight), this case becomes even more confusing.

Then throw in that Trayvon's own father said the one yelling for help was not his son, and the audio expert opinion may become questionable:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/what-is-a-second-degree-murder-charge-28936372.html

Throw in the fact that Owen said that even if under duress, the voice-fingerprint (we each of a fingerprint, so to speak, in our voice...but it is not as clear and varied like an actual fingerprint) is still discernible. It is NOT (I do not know how much I can stress how wrong Owen is, here) that clear cut. Sure, some of the voice elements may still show up (multiple will, in pretty much every vocalization) but it can radically change the "fingerprint" of the voice greatly affecting the outcome. You must use an apples to apples comparison when doing these things to create a "sure" comparison. This is called spectrographic forensics. It gets even more troublesome than just doing an audio analysis with expensive audio tools: you go as far as to inspect the magnetic tape, under a microscope, to check for tampering because you must verify authenticity before it can be considered admissible evidence. Yes, some dude busts out the magnetic tape in a dark room/clean room, puts it under a microscope, and reviews key/transitional portions of the tape for tell-tale signs of tampering (including re-recording).

There's more...

Additionally, linguistic syntax is also used in the analysis and a profile can be created to see how likely someone is to "match" a recording. We have weird and unique ways in how we use our words. This does not apply to this case (I do not think) but it is also something considered in when reviewing.

So with one expert claiming a 48% match, meaning "not likely", but also showing us that Zimmerman said "punks" not "coons", I still do not know what to think.

Is it possible that Zimmerman asked for help at some point, too? Meaning, did both call for help and Trayvon didn't call for help until right at the end? I don't know, but it is possible.

I know I could recognize both of my children screaming in a sea of screaming children...if I were totally blind. As parents, you get used to your children's voice and you subconsciously do your own audio analysis and match. I would tend to think Trayvon's father's opinion on who it was screaming is fairly important. I do not know if it can be considered a definitive defeat to pro-Trayvon camp, though. All it means it the Father does not think the yelling voice is his son's.

Zimmerman's brother also claims that it's Zimmerman's voice screaming. He says he recognizes it.

People can draw their own conclusions. I tend to think that it was probably Trayvon Martin based on the fact that the scream subsided instantly after the gunshot was fired, also I do put credence in the fact that there ARE voice samples of Zimmerman while there are non of Martin, and also my own opinion is that the scream sounds to me like it's from someone younger.

Found what I was looking for:

Standards for Comparisons Determination

The following are the standards accepted nationally by all professional organizations involved with voice identification, including the FBI, Audio Engineering Society, the International Association for Identification, and the American Board of Recorded Evidence:

IDENTIFICATION: At least 90% of all comparable words must be very similar aurally and spectrally, producing not less than twenty (20) matching words.
PROBABLE IDENTIFICATION: At least 80% of the comparable words must be very similar aurally and spectrally, producing not less than fifteen (15) matching words.
POSSIBLE IDENTIFICATION: At least 80% of comparable words must be very similar aurally and spectrally, producing not less then ten (10) matching words.
INCONCLUSIVE: Falls below either the Possible Identification or Possible Elimination confidence levels and/or the examiner does not believe a meaningful decision is obtainable due to various limiting factors.
POSSIBLE ELIMINATION: At least 80% of comparable words must be very dissimilar aurally and spectrally, producing not less than ten (10) words that do not match.
PROBABLE ELIMINATION: At least 80% of the comparable words must be dissimilar aurally and spectrally, producing not less than fifteen (15) words that do not match.
ELIMINATION: At least 90% of the comparable words must be very dissimilar aurally and spectrally, producing not less than twenty (20) words that do not match.

Now that you guys have the rules by which these things are gauged, how does this compare to what evidence we do have? Seems as though we do not have enough data to conclude the few words yelled match the myriad of words spoken. Now, someone can say, and rightfully so, that it is only matching voiceprints to the yelling portion of the call. I agree...but only partially.

Originally posted by BackFire
Zimmerman's brother also claims that it's Zimmerman's voice screaming. He says he recognizes it.

People can draw their own conclusions. I tend to think that it was probably Trayvon Martin based on the fact that the scream subsided instantly after the gunshot was fired, also I do put credence in the fact that there ARE voice samples of Zimmerman while there are non of Martin, and also my own opinion is that the scream sounds to me like it's from someone younger.

I have no audio comparisons to which I can conclude it being Trayvon, at all. I do have some with Zimmerman. I do not find the yelling voice to be disparate with Zimmerman's voice. To be honest, based off of my virtually lay opinion, it is close to a 50-50 toss-up between it being Zimmerman or not.

And, to me, it sounds like a voice older than 15 but no more than 30. That's magically in the zone where both gentleman fall. Lame.

This is also part of why I have no idea who the **** is right.

Regardless it's going to be a fascinating trial, doubly so because the whole thing is going to be aired on TV because of Florida's Sunshine law.