Man follows black teen who seems "suspicious" and kills him.

Originally posted by Newjak
Following is the same as confronting him because that's what caused the confrontation to begin whether it was Zimmerman doing the confronting or the other way around.

So it was dark and he didn't get a good look at the people he called in but he's willing to make a judgment call and automatically declare someone guilty or suspicious even though they weren't exhibiting any suspicious behavior other than they had a skin deep look to the people he saw.

He did call the police and than he did what the police told him not to do, which is follow the kid.

He didn't need to magically know Martin was just a kid doing his thing, and no one faults him for trying to protect his neighborhood. What the problem is he assumed suspicion without any hard evidence to do so. That suspicion led him to do something he shouldn't have because he had the shoot first and ask later mentality about some random dude walking down a street. That something he shouldn't have done led to an innocent kid getting killed. I can see maybe why he would do it but I don't agree with what he did.

And the argument what if he let someone get away that then goes on to do something horrid is itself stupid.

What if cops decided to just come into your house and start looking over everything you owned because they were briefly suspicious of you even though you weren't doing anything suspicious at all. Would you be okay with that?

Odds are they do that enough they will find something somewhere they otherwise wouldn't have, but percentage wise most of the time they wouldn't find anything and they just end up harassing an innocent person. In fact odds are you would have a few more Trayvons than you would hideous crime commiters found out.

So now if you watch someone and they punch you it's your fault for watching? Someone flipping you the bird is more agressive than simply watching someone, are you also of the mind set that if you flipped someone off and they beat your ass, only you are at fault since your action resulted in their reaction? Hell a smile can cause a confrontation now-a-days. I don't agree that it causes confrontations since Martin had the option to keep moving and ignore Zimmerman.

He never declared him guilty. He didn't recognize Martin and felt he fit the description of the men that were commiting crimes around that area. He had reason to be suspicious.

The dispacher never told him not to follow therefore he did nopt go against what they said. They also told him to tell them if the "suspect" does anything else. How was he susposed to know if the guy did something else if he couldn't see him

I'd agree with you if he just walked right up to Martin with accusations. He didn't. He suspected, called the police and watched. That seemed to be his only intent. Hell from what it sounds like he was actively trying to avoid a confrontation of any kind. That 'shoot first' mentality was not at all what he had since he was actively keeping his distance

Why? How would you feel if that were you and you looked the other way and something happened? I know i'd feel shitty.

No one came into his house. Completely different thing. Now if i were walking around outside and was stopped because they suspected i was up to something then that's a different story

No one's personal property was searched in this case so i feel like your point is moot. There are laws against illeagal search and seizure but i don't recall a law against keeping an eye on someone you think is up to no good in a public area, at a distance, for a few minutes until police arrive.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Again, there was a string of robberies, the perpetrator looking very similar to Trayvon. You can not fault Zimmerman for being suspicious.

Like Robtard said the most he should have done is call the police. That's it his part over.

Originally posted by juggerman
So now if you watch someone and they punch you it's your fault for watching? Someone flipping you the bird is more agressive than simply watching someone, are you also of the mind set that if you flipped someone off and they beat your ass, only you are at fault since your action resulted in their reaction? Hell a smile can cause a confrontation now-a-days. I don't agree that it causes confrontations since Martin had the option to keep moving and ignore Zimmerman.

He never declared him guilty. He didn't recognize Martin and felt he fit the description of the men that were commiting crimes around that area. He had reason to be suspicious.

The dispacher never told him not to follow therefore he did nopt go against what they said. They also told him to tell them if the "suspect" does anything else. How was he susposed to know if the guy did something else if he couldn't see him

I'd agree with you if he just walked right up to Martin with accusations. He didn't. He suspected, called the police and watched. That seemed to be his only intent. Hell from what it sounds like he was actively trying to avoid a confrontation of any kind. That 'shoot first' mentality was not at all what he had since he was actively keeping his distance

Why? How would you feel if that were you and you looked the other way and something happened? I know i'd feel shitty.

No one came into his house. Completely different thing. Now if i were walking around outside and was stopped because they suspected i was up to something then that's a different story

No one's personal property was searched in this case so i feel like your point is moot. There are laws against illeagal search and seizure but i don't recall a law against keeping an eye on someone you think is up to no good in a public area, at a distance, for a few minutes until police arrive.

But if he were just following what would you think if you were the guy being followed and watched and you did nothing wrong? Odds are you're either going run, call the police, or confront the person following you. Therefore Zimmerman following Trayvon is what led to the confrontation whether he said something Trayvon or Trayvon said something to Zimmerman first.

I read quotes that said Zimmerman was told not to follow him. I also read quotes where Zimmerman says something along the lines of those people aren't getting away again. It sounds to me like he was going in to prove something instead of thinking it through. That mentality is why a man is dead when there was no legitimate reason to follow, watch or pursue him other circumstantial evidence at best. I mean what was Zimmerman even thinking. Did he think he was going to catch the perp red handed or that someone the guy was going to confess all of his crimes to him.

Shitty over what? That I saw some random guy on the street wearing a hoodie and that person wasn't doing anything suspicious at the time? Odds are more likely he isn't up to something than he is. The odds are more likely you would end up doing something stupid and possibly getting yourself or someone else hurt, which is what happened, then you were to prevent a crime.

They would only stop you if you were acting suspicious as far as we can tell Trayvon wasn't doing anything suspicious other than walking.

And the basic idea wasn't police searching you it was trying to show the idea that odds are you treating everyone suspicious and acting like Zimmerman is more likely to get someone hurt than save someone.

Like I said the cops searching your house is supposed to show risk vs reward of doing such actions.

Originally posted by Newjak

Like Robtard said the most he should have done is call the police. That's it his part over.

He wanted to play hero. Possibly catch one of the robbers looting his neighborhood and get some praise.

Not justification, but definitely understandable.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He wanted to play hero. Possibly catch one of the robbers looting his neighborhood and get some praise.

Not justification, but definitely understandable.

Originally posted by Newjak
Some of that is assuming you believe Zimmerman's side of thing.

But if he were just following what would you think if you were the guy being followed and watched and you did nothing wrong? Odds are you're either going run, call the police, or confront the person following you. Therefore Zimmerman following Trayvon is what led to the confrontation whether he said something Trayvon or Trayvon said something to Zimmerman first.

I read quotes that said Zimmerman was told not to follow him. I also read quotes where Zimmerman says something along the lines of those people aren't getting away again. It sounds to me like he was going in to prove something instead of thinking it through. That mentality is why a man is dead when there was no legitimate reason to follow, watch or pursue him other circumstantial evidence at best. I mean what was Zimmerman even thinking. Did he think he was going to catch the perp red handed or that someone the guy was going to confess all of his crimes to him.

Shitty over what? That I saw some random guy on the street wearing a hoodie and that person wasn't doing anything suspicious at the time? Odds are more likely he isn't up to something than he is. The odds are more likely you would end up doing something stupid and possibly getting yourself or someone else hurt, which is what happened, then you were to prevent a crime.

They would only stop you if you were acting suspicious as far as we can tell Trayvon wasn't doing anything suspicious other than walking.

And the basic idea wasn't police searching you it was trying to show the idea that odds are you treating everyone suspicious and acting like Zimmerman is more likely to get someone hurt than save someone.

Like I said the cops searching your house is supposed to show risk vs reward of doing such actions.

Not really. The phone witness said Martin said he was being followed for a while before he confronted Zimmerman. If Zimmerman were trying to confront Martin or had a 'shoot first' mentality why would he hang back fro so long. Doesn't really fit unless he was trying to say away and just watch

Here's a transcript: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

At the end of the highlighted area we see the dispatcher say "we don't need you to do that" not "do not do that". Completely different from an order or being told not to do something imo. I agree he had a silly mentality but that in itself is not a crime and neither is him trying to keep an eye on Martin

Shitty that you saw a guy you felt was up to no good and did nothing about it(you said he had no reason to even call the police so i'm assuming not even a call was made) and then let's say he broke into a home and killed someone. Or broke into your home and killed a loved one while you were out. I think you'd feel shitty

Define "acting suspicious". To some walking out in the rain like you weren't heading anywhere specific would seem suspicious indeed. That's how he was described.

But changing up the situation isn't really fair here.

If that actually fit what happened then you'd have a point. It doesn't tho

Originally posted by juggerman
Not really. The phone witness said Martin said he was being followed for a while before he confronted Zimmerman. If Zimmerman were trying to confront Martin or had a 'shoot first' mentality why would he hang back fro so long. Doesn't really fit unless he was trying to say away and just watch

Here's a transcript: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

At the end of the highlighted area we see the dispatcher say "we don't need you to do that" not "do not do that". Completely different from an order or being told not to do something imo. I agree he had a silly mentality but that in itself is not a crime and neither is him trying to keep an eye on Martin

Shitty that you saw a guy you felt was up to no good and did nothing about it(you said he had no reason to even call the police so i'm assuming not even a call was made) and then let's say he broke into a home and killed someone. Or broke into your home and killed a loved one while you were out. I think you'd feel shitty

Define "acting suspicious". To some walking out in the rain like you weren't heading anywhere specific would seem suspicious indeed. That's how he was described.

But changing up the situation isn't really fair here.

If that actually fit what happened then you'd have a point. It doesn't tho

Like I said his actions still directly lead to the confrontation. And the Police Officer's telling you they don't need you and then you doing it anyways is not listening to the police. And I didn't say it was a crime I said it was stupid and his stupid actions led to someone getting killed.

If we're talking about this case if I did nothing a man would still be alive to day, amazing how that is different from your hypothetical of me doing nothing and someone dying. You see in this scenario I save a life because I don't go off trying to follow someone for no reason. In your scenario you actually have to invent someone dying even though it's unlikely. So my proven to save a life yours proven to get an innocent man killed.

There are plenty of people that walk in the rain, walking in the rain does not equal committing crime unless you're trying to look for something that isn't there.

Originally posted by Newjak
If you believe the witness 😛

Like I said his actions still directly lead to the confrontation. And the Police Officer's telling you they don't need you and then you doing it anyways is not listening to the police. And I didn't say it was a crime I said it was stupid and his stupid actions led to someone getting killed.

If we're talking about this case if I did nothing a man would still be alive to day, amazing how that is different from your hypothetical of me doing nothing and someone dying. You see in this scenario I save a life because I don't go off trying to follow someone for no reason. In your scenario you actually have to invent someone dying even though it's unlikely. So my proven to save a life yours proven to get an innocent man killed.

There are plenty of people that walk in the rain, walking in the rain does not equal committing crime unless you're trying to look for something that isn't there.

😂

I don't believe the dispatcher counts as an officer. And his actions did not directly lead to the confrontation as Martin could have easily continued on his way and made it home safely

Well yes which is why i brought up the hypothetical. At least mine was directly related to this situation. My point being that he felt acting in this case may have prevented a crime. Basically you'd rather have people look the other way instead of trying to do what they feel is right. I don't believe it was ever his intent to get into any kind of altercation with the man and that is supported by his actions of staying back and simply observing

I didn't say it was a crime at all, but many people may agree it is suspicious which is what we were talking about

Originally posted by juggerman
😂

I don't believe the dispatcher counts as an officer. And his actions did not directly lead to the confrontation as Martin could have easily continued on his way and made it home safely

Well yes which is why i brought up the hypothetical. At least mine was directly related to this situation. My point being that he felt acting in this case may have prevented a crime. Basically you'd rather have people look the other way instead of trying to do what they feel is right. I don't believe it was ever his intent to get into any kind of altercation with the man and that is supported by his actions of staying back and simply observing

I didn't say it was a crime at all, but many people may agree it is suspicious which is what we were talking about

Yours proved nothing. You make it sound like my way is trying to promote crime? Considering my way would have allowed Trayvon to still be alive right now in this game of hypothetical I think my foundation is a bit sturdier than yours.

You had to invent a highly unlikely scenario where I would be wrong where you might be right 1/1000 times and your way is also more likely to get yourself or someone innocent hurt. And you have the gull to make it sound like I'm saying everyone should ignore crime and let people get hurt.

You're saying he had every right to follow someone he only had at best limited reason to be following and that somehow because he thought he was preventing a crime(one that hadn't happened yet) he was justifiable. He isn't. He made a stupid call by a) assuming this kid was automatically guilty with no real evidence, b) trying to follow him when police were on the way. Now a kid is dead because of it. No real alternate thoughts there. No justifying that. A man with no law enforcement background that I know of decided he was going to play cop and go after someone he automatically thought was guilty.

How many people think it's suspicious where is the number? I see people walking in rain all the time and my first instinct isn't that person is up to something. I don't see people trailing these guys all the time. I don't see cops pulling over and questioning them.

Originally posted by Newjak
I believe the dispatcher can be an officer. Also haven't you ever talked to cops in no way do they want civilians interacting or possibly following criminals due to safety concerns.

Yours proved nothing. You make it sound like my way is trying to promote crime? Considering my way would have allowed Trayvon to still be alive right now in this game of hypothetical I think my foundation is a bit sturdier than yours.

You had to invent a highly unlikely scenario where I would be wrong where you might be right 1/1000 times and your way is also more likely to get yourself or someone innocent hurt. And you have the gull to make it sound like I'm saying everyone should ignore crime and let people get hurt.

You're saying he had every right to follow someone he only had at best limited reason to be following and that somehow because he thought he was preventing a crime(one that hadn't happened yet) he was justifiable. He isn't. He made a stupid call by a) assuming this kid was automatically guilty with no real evidence, b) trying to follow him when police were on the way. Now a kid is dead because of it. No real alternate thoughts there. No justifying that. A man with no law enforcement background that I know of decided he was going to play cop and go after someone he automatically thought was guilty.

How many people think it's suspicious where is the number? I see people walking in rain all the time and my first instinct isn't that person is up to something. I don't see people trailing these guys all the time. I don't see cops pulling over and questioning them.

I agree but he was not "told" not to follow as you and others claim.

It does you just don't agree. Your foundation is much weaker since it creates an entirely different situation than a civilian looking at another civilian outside in public domain.

It's not unlikely at all seeing as how there were several crimes in that area at the time to begin with. Not hard to imagine a B&E escalating to assult/murder seeing as how it happens all the time. But since i've seemed to have touched a button with you i will drop the idea

He had no right to keep an eye on a guy? We all have that right. He did nothing that we know of to overtly cause a confrontataion and was simply trying to ascertain whether this young man was up to no good or not. He was breaking no laws in doing so either. Finding someone suspicious is not the same as finding them guilty imo

I don't have a number but i've spoken to people about this case and many agree they would have found Martin's described behavior suspicious. Granted they said they would not have followed him but that's a different subject entirely. Again it's not "walking in the rain" that was weird it was "walking seemingly aimlessly, looking at houses at night(like a burglar might, ect) that he found weird.

Originally posted by juggerman
I don't have a number but i've spoken to people about this case and many agree they would have found Martin's described behavior suspicious. Granted they said they would not have followed him but that's a different subject entirely. Again it's not "walking in the rain" that was weird it was "walking seemingly aimlessly, looking at houses at night(like a burglar might, ect) that he found weird.

I can't say I'm surprised a guy who is arguing that he shot a person in self defense who describe the person he shot as acting in a suspicious way. I feel like I'm back in the NSA thread.

Originally posted by juggerman
I have which is why i'm asking you your opinion. There were a string of robberies commited in his area by young black men wearing hoodies. He saw an unfamiliar young black man in a hoodie walking slowly in the rain around the area and though he looked suspicious so he called it in. What's racist about that at all? Especially given the fact that contrary to popular belief he said nothing "racist" in his 9-1-1 call and has black family and mentored black kids. I'm just not seeing it

The fact that he racially profiled Martin and then said "they always get away" made me think he was moderately racist. Nothing will convince me otherwise. 😐

"He has a black family."

😂

Sorry, I just can't help imagining Zimmerman on a plantation saying "Yeah, I've got a black a family."

You guys saw the Paula Deen clip where she talked about what a hard time the post-Civil-War was for her ancestor, having had 19 slaves before and now none. So sad....

Originally posted by Newjak
No matter how you want to spin it.

Zimmerman pursued a kid without any probable cause other than he looked funny and suspicious to Zimmerman. That alone is a red flag that he did that. Regardless of how things went down in private between the two once Zimmerman was confronted or did the confronting his pursuit of a kid directly led to an innocent person being killed.

The fact that if Fox news is trying to say it's Trayvon's fault because he is was wearing a hoodie makes Fox stupid.

As for Zimmerman being justified in his pursuit he isn't. If all you have is black kid wearing hoodie as your descriptor that is not enough to pursue someone that you don't know for sure has committed a crime.

You wanna know why because that description can match any number of possible innocent people walking the street at a given time. There is no legitimate reason for Zimmerman to pursue Trayvon in that scenario other than he made a stupid judgement call that cost a kid his life.

...well, you just said what I said but in much better words.

Originally posted by juggerman
Negative. I'm right there with you pal

Excellent. 👆

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't fault Zimmerman for calling the police on a person who loosely looked like a suspect to a robbery.

I fault Zimmerman for not listening to the police operator and staying away/not confronting Trayvon.

I also fault Zimmerman for pulling out a gun and shooting someone cos they handed him his ass in a fist fight, of which I'm inclined to believe Zimmerman caused.

I was with you until that last part.

I fault Martin's reaction to Zimmerman's actions to the the reason Martin died.

At the root, it is all Zimmerman's fault. But fault is not solely his. I imagine a much different outcome had Martin not responded like a territorial dog.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The fact that he racially profiled Martin and then said "they always get away" made me think he was moderately racist. Nothing will convince me otherwise. 😐

You can't blame him that the robber who had plagued his neighborhood looked like Trayvon, giving Zimmerman reason for suspicion. And I doubt he was solely referring to black criminals when he made that statement.

Originally posted by dadudemon

At the root, it is all Zimmerman's fault. But fault is not solely his. I imagine a much different outcome had Martin not responded like a territorial dog.

I agree with this.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You guys saw the Paula Deen clip where she talked about what a hard time the post-Civil-War was for her ancestor, having had 19 slaves before and now none. So sad....

I did not. I'd love to see it and my google is broken.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You can't blame him that the robber who had plagued his neighborhood looked like Trayvon, giving Zimmerman reason for suspicion. And I doubt he was solely referring to black criminals when he made that statement.

Correction: robbers.

And I don't know about the string of robberies being black men and I am quite familiar with this case.

Also, your first point contradicts the last one.

If they were all black and he said "they always get away" he was referring to the black criminals.

If they were not all black then his statement wasn't racist. 🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
I did not. I'd love to see it and my google is broken.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/paula-deen-racism_n_3480720.html

Originally posted by Bardock42
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/paula-deen-racism_n_3480720.html

Losing the equivalent of millions of dollars worth of assets, going bankrupt, and losing a son to a bloody war can definitely drive a person to suicide. That is a pretty shitty story. Also, she went on to say in that very same "breath" that despite that shit, good came from that (referring directly to the freeing of the slaves).

Check it out: to this day, in business management, people are still considered and referred to as "assets." Emancipation procla-what? 😐