Originally posted by Nephthys
Who's to say Hashirama would have let him get an explosive tag on him if he wasn't an Edo Tensei-zombie?
Who said he "let" him put an explosive tag there in the first place? See, this is what I mean. How can I debate with you when you when you're slithering around every argument with these unverifiable excuses?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not to mention we now have more of an idea on Hashirama's moveset. He seems not to have used things that would come in handy, like his clones or pollen(I really don't know of what Sarutobi could have done against something like this).So using the fact that Sarutobi beat Hashirama in a fight to prove that he is stronger is kinda faulty, since we now know that Hashirama didn't use everything he had. It's like saying Sage ModeNaruto>Pain or saying Karui>Naruto.
We also know that Sarutobi Hiruzen didn't use everything he had, as well. We also know that Sarutobi was pitiful compared to his prime because he was an old man at this point (with much less chakra).
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Man...I wish I could get mangareader working.I still love you DP. <3
Follow the advice I gave a few pages back in the Naruto thread.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Astner, I think its pretty clear that none of us are buying it. We don't put as much stock in those quotes as you do and we don't consider that fight to be any form of proof that he's superior to them.
I do. I support Astner's position because it is canon. I don't care about power-scaling or other idiocy from Kishimoto. You must set aside reason when dealing with fantasy. lol
Originally posted by Astner
If not for the Edo Tensei, Hashirama would be bleeding to death after his leg was blown off. Or at the least losing tremendous amounts of chakra trying to regenerate it back, even though we've not seen a shinobi naturally regenerate any limbs.
Nothing would be "natrual" about a human regenerating limbs. However, Oro did so.
Originally posted by dadudemon
We also know that Sarutobi Hiruzen didn't use everything he had, as well. We also know that Sarutobi was pitiful compared to his prime because he was an old man at this point (with much less chakra).
Except we know what Hashirama held back, or at least decided not to use. With Hiruzen, we have no clue except that apparently he mastered all of Konoha's techniques and didn't use them. Which doesn't make much sense, considering Kage Mane would have come in handy.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Except we know what Hashirama held back, or at least decided not to use. With Hiruzen, we have no clue except that apparently he mastered all of Konoha's techniques and didn't use them. Which doesn't make much sense, considering Kage Mane would have come in handy.
No, we do not know that Hashirama held back. He didn't use everything at his disposal. What I said still applies: Hiruzen did not use everything at his disposal, as well. We know for a fact that hundreds or thousands of other jutsus were available for use by Hiruzen.
So using the argument, "Hashirama didn't use everything he could have" is a two-way street. Hiruzen is superior to Hashirama. That's canon. It may not bode well with you but we have to deal with it.
Accept the fact the Kishimoto ****ed up and it all makes sense.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I do. I support Astner's position because it is canon. I don't care about power-scaling or other idiocy from Kishimoto. You must set aside reason when dealing with fantasy. lol
Wrong. It isn't canon. Whats canon is that Hiruzen was 'said to be the strongest of all' and that he was 'honored as the strongest Hokage of all time,' not that he actually was the strongest Hokage.
We know of the moves(that Hiruzen doesn't have a counter for) that Hashirama didn't use in the fight. We don't know of the moves Hiruzen didn't use in the fight. Name one technique, in all of Konoha, that could stop the Pollen technique.
And yes, Kishi ****ed up by making Hashirama so freaking strong when he was relatively unimpressive in the beginning. Again, which makes more sense for in story purposes: Hashirama and Tobirama didn't use their best stuff because....well stuff I guess. OR...Hashirama and Tobirama didn't use their best stuff because Orochimaru plays with the people he fights, enjoys the battle before it ends and by extension held them back purposely. Which can be showed several times in the manga.
We can either go with the idea that Hiruzen is so much more ****ing powerful at age 69 than everyone else in the manga, even though he has relatively more lack luster feats, or we can go with the idea that Orochimaru was dicking around the whole fight like he usually does. I'm gonna go with the second.
Originally posted by Astner
No, they were restored to their true forms. Go back and reread the panel I posted.
Which is why I don't understand what people are on about.
Deal with the fact the Kishimoto ****ed it up. You guys are getting too caught up in the universe when the obvious reason fro the power-scaling problem is right in front of you: Kishimoto screwed up.
It doesn't matter. Based on the evidence Hizuren is more powerful, and unless we're given evidence in the future that would suggest anything else, he'll remain the most powerful kage.
Perhaps it's the mathematician in me speaking, but: "He doesn't really seem as powerful as;" doesn't really cut it when put up against hard evidence.