KMC Title Belt Championship Battlezone

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ok, I got both writeups and I'll be making the match shortly.

Honestly, I gotta say based on the picks by both Digi and Leo, this will be a unique match up and one I'm both looking forward to and dreading to judge, ha ha.

EDIT: Crap. Totally glossed over the five minute prep clause in the rules. facepalm I'd imagine that this would effect both of your OP's significantly, so what I can do is one of the following:

I can post both your OPs as "general strategies" for your respective picks and it won't count toward any post counts and then you may post a specific "prep" post catered around your opponent.

OR

I can reveal the characters both of you picked and you may opt to rewrite your OPs entirely to reflect your opposition.

Again, my mistake, guys. Whatever is most fair to you guys is fine by me.

Is there a 3rd option where we can do away with the 5 minutes? If not, no worries. I can add a "Prep" post once the match starts (there won't be a ton in my prep anyway, unless we get a location-specific prep).

Originally posted by Digi
Is there a 3rd option where we can do away with the 5 minutes? If not, no worries. I can add a "Prep" post once the match starts (there won't be a ton in my prep anyway, unless we get a location-specific prep).

If Leo would be cool with that, then I have no problem with it. So long as you guys agree on terms, I don't see why not.

Originally posted by Digi
Is there a 3rd option where we can do away with the 5 minutes? If not, no worries. I can add a "Prep" post once the match starts (there won't be a ton in my prep anyway, unless we get a location-specific prep).

lol

check your pm! i just suggested the exact same thing. 😂 so yeah, i'm cool with doing away with the 5mins and hopping into the match blind.

unless it works against me, in which case i will cry foul. sneer

Couldn't pick something normal, could you? Should be a weird-ass match.

lol says the guy who goes with a jedi.....

Yeah, after getting both of your picks, I was thinking that this was going to be one weird as shit match-up, lol.

Heh. Anyway.

We have 14 days. So Wed. the 8th is our last day? I'm ok with that.

I figure I'll do about a post every other day, starting tomorrow. I don't want to flood our match with posts, but also want to keep the pace a bit up from earlier matches.

👆

If this is Expanded Universe Luke he has TP on the level of Xavier or higher

xavier....?

That's a rather dubious claim. He's got some good feats, but nothing on the planetary, or interplanetary, scale of Xavier's best feats. At least not without help from either other Jedi or some sort of artificial contextual enhancement. I mean, I've read probably 75% of the EU books, and he still occasionally fails to convince strong-willed people of something using the Force. Xavier would have no such troubles. Chuck has telepathic discussions across galaxies. Luke has some sort of bio-sense with those he's related to, but outside of heavily contextual circumstances, I never remember him doing that with anyone off-planet even.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm absolutely going to try to use tp to my avdnatage if I can. But I'm certainly not sitting on a TP-rape feat for him.

In the Swarm War series I believe he beat a guy who was backed by the combined mental powers of billions of aliens. He also forced tons of Jedi who were telepaths themselves to come to a planet from all over the galaxy.

Figures it's the one recent series I don't read. So, ok. Was there any context we should know? Also, if not, where do we go from here? That seems like a ridiculous outlier to me, given every other showing of his, but it's also a potentially problematic outlier.

{edit} there certainly is context. see my post below.

Well if you ask TWF/Fang on Naruto Forums he knows a lot about it, he's assembled a respect thread too with all of the quotes

Found the site, though a link would've helped. I waded through a couple weird sites first, not knowing what I was looking for.

Anyway. The quote from the feat you mentioned says he was meditating for weeks as he sent out the summons. You also said he "forced" them there, which is incorrect. He simply summoned them, like asking them. A few declined the summons, it also says.

Ironically, I also found a thread on that same site that was a spite thread against Luke. "If Luke can mindrape other opponents here with little to no proof of being able to actually do so, I wonder how he would fare against Galactus?" So apparently the idea that he can insta-mind-rape someone isn't a universally accepted tactic. I certainly have lots of times when he influences people, contacts them or hinders them, but none that are overt takeovers or shutdowns.

Back to the feat, here's the full quote:
Luke continued to look out over the dark water. He had spent the last week deep in meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order. It would have been easier to use the HoloNet, but many Jedi-such as Jaina and her team-were in places the HoloNet did not cover. Besides, Luke was trying to make a point, to subtly remind the rest of the order that all Jedi answered to the same authority.

And the strategy had worked. In every arm of the galaxy, Masters had suspended negotiations, Jedi Knights had dropped investigations, apprentices had withdrawn from combat. There were a few Jedi stranded on off-lane worlds without transport and a couple unable to suspend their activities without fatal consequences, but for the most part, his summons had been honored. Only two Jedi Knights had willfully ignored his call, and their decision had surprised Luke less than it had hurt him.

I dunno. If we want to make a stink over this, we can. But I don't have weeks to meditate in my battle, and I'm not even sure a non-offensive galactic summons constitutes a DQ at this level. It also does nothing to make Xavier shake in his boots.

srug

Originally posted by Digi
Found the site, though a link would've helped. I waded through a couple weird sites first, not knowing what I was looking for.

Anyway. The quote from the feat you mentioned says he was meditating for weeks as he sent out the summons. You also said he "forced" them there, which is incorrect. He simply summoned them, like asking them. A few declined the summons, it also says.

Ironically, I also found a thread on that same site that was a spite thread against Luke. "If Luke can mindrape other opponents here with little to no proof of being able to actually do so, I wonder how he would fare against Galactus?" So apparently the idea that he can insta-mind-rape someone isn't a universally accepted tactic. I certainly have lots of times when he influences people, contacts them or hinders them, but none that are overt takeovers or shutdowns.

Back to the feat, here's the full quote:
Luke continued to look out over the dark water. He had spent the last week deep in meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order. It would have been easier to use the HoloNet, but many Jedi-such as Jaina and her team-were in places the HoloNet did not cover. Besides, Luke was trying to make a point, to subtly remind the rest of the order that all Jedi answered to the same authority.

And the strategy had worked. In every arm of the galaxy, Masters had suspended negotiations, Jedi Knights had dropped investigations, apprentices had withdrawn from combat. There were a few Jedi stranded on off-lane worlds without transport and a couple unable to suspend their activities without fatal consequences, but for the most part, his summons had been honored. Only two Jedi Knights had willfully ignored his call, and their decision had surprised Luke less than it had hurt him.

I dunno. If we want to make a stink over this, we can. But I don't have weeks to meditate in my battle, and I'm not even sure a non-offensive galactic summons constitutes a DQ at this level. It also does nothing to make Xavier shake in his boots.

srug

Personally, I see no issues with Luke's TP prowess, both from what you posted and what I personally know of the EU. Like you said, you don't have a week's worth of time to perform the equivalent of a mass conference call and nothing I've glossed over or even heard in passing from Luke matches Xavier's upper or best feats.

Of course, I'm willing to listen to any concerns if they do exist.

Well the Killik thing was probably better anyway

Well, sure, it's probably better because it's actually a combat feat, whereas the tp feat isn't.

But the guy he fought was a not as skilled or powerful a Jedi, had just had his arm cut off, and the level of power he channels is entirely ambiguous. And all Luke does, literally, is resist a Force push then pin him to the wall. There's some obvious hyperbole about the center of a black hole being unable to budge him, but that's about it. Realistically, it's not even a feat I can use, because we don't know to what extent the other guy was channeling the Swarm power. I consider pinning Caedus to his chair temporarily in the next series to be a better feat.

Hyperbole is hyperbole. If a skilled Master can give him a run for his money, we should look skeptically at him standing up to something that anyone is calling billions of times stronger, that Luke treats like a child.

Badass telekinetics and telepaths hang out at high meta anyway. I can't fathom pitting Luke against, say, Firelord, or anyone at low herald. He'd get annihilated. And if these are the best feats I'm unaware of, I feel like Luke remains solidly in the tier I'm using him in.

To be clear, Mike, I don't mind being called to task on my picks. It's a necessary balance. But you were obviously missing some context on the tp feat, and I can't see the lone other feat - which is wholly unquantifiable - as anything more than a curiosity...a feat for some to embellish, others to ignore, and one that's effectively worthless in a tourney setting. I choose not to see it as exponentially better than any other feat he has, both because it makes more sense than saying he has one nonsensically powerful feat that makes no sense given his history, and because it's completely ambiguous in power output. If there's others to bolster your point, I'm happy to hear of them. But I tried to do my homework. And as far as I can tell, nothing he's ever done invalidates this tier.

I wasn't trying to disqualify him... just pointing some things out

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I wasn't trying to disqualify him... just pointing some things out

Ok, fair enough. Like I said, that's part of the process. It's just, I put a fair amount of time into research for this, then to see something like this:

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In the Swarm War series I believe he beat a guy who was backed by the combined mental powers of billions of aliens. He also forced tons of Jedi who were telepaths themselves to come to a planet from all over the galaxy.

...is alarming. And to find out it's misrepresenting feats and missing context, and to have to do the work to correct you myself, is frustrating.