KMC Marvel Team vs DC Earth

Originally posted by Endless Mike
All this stuff happened way before the last few years.

I'm well aware, but Spectre in the past even decade hasn't been that impressive. Even Hal Spectre wasn't on the level as his predessor.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It was only over because baby ST agreed for it to be. Who knows what might have happened if they had decided to actually fight. And keep in mind this was a far weaker ST.

and keep in mind as I mentioned wasn't a fight, nor was Elaine serious until the talk. It's really a non-feat for ST.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Is that even allowed? Is she going to summon the spirits of everyone in the multiverse to find out any possible danger that could be put against her?

🙄

Wonders of prep and having the spirit of time and space on your side.

She could use the glass oracle a spell and ritual can see events that transpire in different dimensions. Talisman sits in a Circle of Power and in front of her a large piece of glass shows her events of her wishing.

1. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight82-06.jpg
2. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight82-09.jpg

or looks into the future

Here the Canadian government storms in on Alpha Flight while their having an important discussion about their future as a team. Talisman knows who is attacking and when they were about to attack, unlike everyone else
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-03.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-04.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-05.jpg
4. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-09.jpg

Talisman foreseeing that Alpha Flight would use this building as their base months ago. As she needs to stop the Sweeping Dark
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-07.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-08.jpg
3. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-09.jpg

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Many people - such as? Metron and Darkseid considered it incredible that he could.

Yeah in the past, as I mentioned when trapped in the wall Darkseid was still summoning avatars in his image to do his bidding. Others who have crossed or escaped: Yuga Khan, Cyborg Superman, Darkseid, Metron, Barry Allen, Highfather/Zeus/Jove/Ares/Odin. Both of them have escaped the wall, plus Superman. Also didn't ST cross the wall with the help of Metron?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'm not using God ST - this was a baby ST. He and Elaine talked it out and he agreed to leave. I don't see how that qualifies as being owned.

No nor do I, but I'm also the one that thinks it's a non-fight nor really impressive. Elaine was not serious nor did she really struggle as you claimed.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
What about elemental form Captain Atom and Red Tornado?

Definetly still above them.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So Talisman can solo Chaos King and all of those guys? Why didn't she then?

She didn't even appear during Chaos War, she hasn't appeared since Omega Flight.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
She did have trouble, he managed to avoid her detection and sneak up on her, knock her down and hurt her, while taking on her companions as well.

So what? Wolverine has avoided detection from Dr.Strange, but do I think Wolverine is on the same level as him? Definetly not. The sneak attack knocked her down and then she got serious and had the talk and that was it. Non-fight and not as impressive as your claiming.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Arcane Cable = Spectre:

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/st_arcane16.jpg

Arcane Cable falls to Swamp Thing:

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/st_arcane4.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/st_arcane5.jpg

Tefe > Arcane Cable:

http://i43.tinypic.com/13za4o1.jpg

As further confirmation, the Lords of Hell believe that with Tefe's power, they cold challenge even Lucifer himself:

http://i39.tinypic.com/vmwu2e.jpg

But, what's this? ST's powers > Tefe's:

http://i39.tinypic.com/112g4td.jpg

WOw look at that ABC logic and so you think ST is more powerful then Spectre following your logic then? If so.....think this conversation is done.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
With the Quantum Field, IIRC. And ST beat down Captain Atom too.

Sure did, now doesn't that hurt your case that makes him a universal power?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nekron is Death, emptiness, darkness:

http://i40.tinypic.com/288pg1j.jpg

He defeated the Anti-Monitor and enslaved the Spectre. He pwned the Guardians of the Universe. The Blackest Night was a multiversal event, Nekron's aim was to extinguish all life in the multiverse. Confirmed by Brainiac 5:

http://i41.tinypic.com/21ca8ig.jpg

And when the Black Lanterns reached Earth-Prime to fight SBP.

So as I daid where is this univeral power he showed? Saying he is death, empitness, darkness doesn't mean much. Hell the Great Beasts were said to be the embodiments of death on Earth when it was first commencing to come alive and "the Great Beasts rule over death and decay, and can implore death and decay as a weapon against mankind". Also as sated the Great Beasts "are deathless as a fable and are mythology incarnate. They are responsible for making the first men fear the darkness and the cold"

Now concerning Llan, "He’s the opener of the way for all evil that lurks outside", "he is the next worse thing to the devil himself and Llan isn't a demon or a god, something far worse." and "Llan is one of the most ancient of evils and said to be the most powerful. He is the architect of madness, the bringer of despair"

He beat a near death Anti-Monitor hardly as impressive, and Spectre couldn't fight him. That scan is hardly conclusive

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Great Beasts conquered a universe over an unknown period of time - the druids ST fought did it in a few decades at most. Great Beasts are Skyfather level. Need more info on Dreamqueen and Llan.

Considering their power they showed it won't have taken long. Concerning Llan, well as noted the Great Beasts arriving was only a sign of Llan was returning. He dwarfs the beasts in power. Dreamqueen is Nightmare's daughter and controls a dimension like her father.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Really, I recall Hercules winning, but it's been a long time since I read it.

Snowbird beat and killed the Skrull God with demogorge's bone.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That would be right term. He wasn't fully powered and took multiple guardians at once. He was only bfred after getting caught in a galaxy busting concentrated attack and cheapshotted by a PC kryptonian. White entity restored him to full power. Again you are better than lowballing characters.

I'm aware, hell that's what I was saying. He was NOT at his full power, nor was he at his Crisis levels. That's my point. He was drastically weakened and near death when Nekron did what he did so it makes it less impressive. That's not lowballing that's fact.

Originally posted by -K-M-
I'm well aware, but Spectre in the past even decade hasn't been that impressive. Even Hal Spectre wasn't on the level as his predessor.

He still has multiversal feats.

and keep in mind as I mentioned wasn't a fight, nor was Elaine serious until the talk. It's really a non-feat for ST.

Surviving when she had purged all of the other elementals and spirits, remaining outside of her perception, attacking and hurting her, and having her decide to negotiate with him instead of attempting to force him out like the others are feats.

Wonders of prep and having the spirit of time and space on your side.

Has she actually used all of these spirits you're mentioning, or are you just assuming something like "her power is to control spirits so therefore she can just use the spirit of (whatever) to control that thing"?

She could use the glass oracle a spell and ritual can see events that transpire in different dimensions. Talisman sits in a Circle of Power and in front of her a large piece of glass shows her events of her wishing.

1. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight82-06.jpg
2. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight82-09.jpg

That says it can only show her some things.

or looks into the future

Here the Canadian government storms in on Alpha Flight while their having an important discussion about their future as a team. Talisman knows who is attacking and when they were about to attack, unlike everyone else
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-03.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-04.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-05.jpg
4. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-09.jpg

Talisman foreseeing that Alpha Flight would use this building as their base months ago. As she needs to stop the Sweeping Dark
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-07.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-08.jpg
3. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight78-09.jpg

She also says knowledge without power is not enough to win - and ST can distort time and probability so being able to anticipate his actions will be more difficult than she thinks.

Yeah in the past, as I mentioned when trapped in the wall Darkseid was still summoning avatars in his image to do his bidding. Others who have crossed or escaped: Yuga Khan, Cyborg Superman, Darkseid, Metron, Barry Allen, Highfather/Zeus/Jove/Ares/Odin. Both of them have escaped the wall, plus Superman. Also didn't ST cross the wall with the help of Metron?

Metron took him on his chair but it was ST's power that allowed him to cross it. And ST hadn't nearly realized his full powers yet at that point.

No nor do I, but I'm also the one that thinks it's a non-fight nor really impressive. Elaine was not serious nor did she really struggle as you claimed.

She got knocked on her ass, cursed herself for letting it happen, and then decided to try to talk it out instead of trying to force the issue like she did with the other spirits and elementals.

Definetly still above them.

I wouldn't be sure about that - Captain Atom can recreate the entire universe in the Quantum Field, and the elementals are considered some of the most powerful mystical beings in the DCU. ST was able to own the other elementals at once, effortlessly.

She didn't even appear during Chaos War, she hasn't appeared since Omega Flight.

But presumably she's still around, right, so why didn't she stop them if she could?

So what? Wolverine has avoided detection from Dr.Strange, but do I think Wolverine is on the same level as him? Definetly not. The sneak attack knocked her down and then she got serious and had the talk and that was it. Non-fight and not as impressive as your claiming.

The fact she decided to talk instead of fight says something.

WOw look at that ABC logic and so you think ST is more powerful then Spectre following your logic then? If so.....think this conversation is done.

Not FP Spectre of course, but ST is certainly up there. Besides, you're the only implying Talisman > Chaos King and such.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Sure did, now doesn't that hurt your case that makes him a universal power?

He beat a near death Anti-Monitor hardly as impressive, and Spectre couldn't fight him. That scan is hardly conclusive

Originally posted by -K-M-
Sure did, now doesn't that hurt your case that makes him a universal power?

Nekron wasn't as strong back then.

So as I daid where is this univeral power he showed? Saying he is death, empitness, darkness doesn't mean much. Hell the Great Beasts were said to be the embodiments of death on Earth when it was first commencing to come alive and "the Great Beasts rule over death and decay, and can implore death and decay as a weapon against mankind". Also as sated the Great Beasts "are deathless as a fable and are mythology incarnate. They are responsible for making the first men fear the darkness and the cold"

Key words are Earth and mankind. Nekron is part of Death of the entire multiverse.

Now concerning Llan, "He’s the opener of the way for all evil that lurks outside", "he is the next worse thing to the devil himself and Llan isn't a demon or a god, something far worse." and "Llan is one of the most ancient of evils and said to be the most powerful. He is the architect of madness, the bringer of despair"

Okay, can I see some feats from him and Talisman beating him?

He beat a near death Anti-Monitor hardly as impressive, and Spectre couldn't fight him. That scan is hardly conclusive

He made Spectre into a BL. Brainiac 5 said his power penetrated the multiverse.

Considering their power they showed it won't have taken long.

Elaborate please.

Concerning Llan, well as noted the Great Beasts arriving was only a sign of Llan was returning. He dwarfs the beasts in power. Dreamqueen is Nightmare's daughter and controls a dimension like her father.

ST has beaten beings that dwarf Nightmare in power.

Snowbird beat and killed the Skrull God with demogorge's bone.

Guess I'll take your word for it, but IIRC Herc was getting in some good hits too.

Originally posted by -K-M-
I'm aware, hell that's what I was saying. He was NOT at his full power, nor was he at his Crisis levels. That's my point. He was drastically weakened and near death when Nekron did what he did so it makes it less impressive. That's not lowballing that's fact.

I didn't say he beat COIE level antimonitor

I'm loving this. I think I'll mosy on over to our DC counterparts thread to see if they're carrying on such riveting discussions...

Well either way I'm glad to have an interesting and challenging debate, thank you K M

Originally posted by dmills
I'm loving this. I think I'll mosy on over to our DC counterparts thread to see if they're carrying on such riveting discussions...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well either way I'm glad to have an interesting and challenging debate, thank you K M

Agreed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Two words, miracle machine.

Good lord.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He still has multiversal feats.

Who Hal?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Surviving when she had purged all of the other elementals and spirits, remaining outside of her perception, attacking and hurting her, and having her decide to negotiate with him instead of attempting to force him out like the others are feats.

Except not once here did she have intent to fight and why would she when she sees it's a "baby" as you called him. Not once was she serious about fighting and the talk alone was enough to end it. Not convinced.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Has she actually used all of these spirits you're mentioning, or are you just assuming something like "her power is to control spirits so therefore she can just use the spirit of (whatever) to control that thing"?

Yep, everyone she and Shaman (Talisman II) have used to do their bidding. Also on that note everything that exists has a spirit

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/AlphaFlight35-22.jpg

Originally posted by Endless Mike
That says it can only show her some things.

With that particular spell, but with the spirit of time and space she could see everything.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
She also says knowledge without power is not enough to win - and ST can distort time and probability so being able to anticipate his actions will be more difficult than she thinks.

Yeah against Llan who is drastically above Swamp Thing nor does she have three years of prep which she has here. If you didn't give her such a huge amount of prep I would give the nod to Swamp Thing to win, but with her powers and her abilities to prep for three years? Way to much time.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Metron took him on his chair but it was ST's power that allowed him to cross it. And ST hadn't nearly realized his full powers yet at that point.

So he still had help regardless. I believe he could cross on his own, but as I said the Source Wall isn't what it once was.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
She got knocked on her ass, cursed herself for letting it happen, and then decided to try to talk it out instead of trying to force the issue like she did with the other spirits and elementals.

From a sneak attack which didn't cause her serious pain nor did it even cause her rage to even make her want to fight a "baby" as you call him. Not once was Elaine serious, not even during the talk.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I wouldn't be sure about that - Captain Atom can recreate the entire universe in the Quantum Field, and the elementals are considered some of the most powerful mystical beings in the DCU. ST was able to own the other elementals at once, effortlessly.

Are you talking when CA when to the Wildstorm universe? He was upgraded then. They sure are, but they really didn't have much feats especially elemental Firestorm and even Galan a huge supporter of Firestorm can attest to.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But presumably she's still around, right, so why didn't she stop them if she could?

Because the writers didn't use her, why didn't the Celestials, Eternity, abstracts etc. fight CK?....because the writer didn't write that

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The fact she decided to talk instead of fight says something.

Not really, was she looking for a fight in the first place? No. She also saw he was a baby a term you coined so why fight a baby?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not FP Spectre of course, but ST is certainly up there. Besides, you're the only implying Talisman > Chaos King and such.

Sure is, but from your ABC logic you stated he was and I quote "Spectre = Cable Arcane <<<<<<< Tefe < ST." Wanna retract that statement then?

No I didn't, not once. I said the Great Beasts were fighting and beating the Choas King and his army...which they did until Snowbird stopped them. Talisman wasn't even present during the Choas War.

Originally posted by dmills
Good lord.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nekron wasn't as strong back then.

and where did it say he was drastically amped?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Key words are Earth and mankind. Nekron is part of Death of the entire multiverse.

Except many people claim to be death that's my point. Did we see any multiversal dealing in Blackest Night? Nope.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Okay, can I see some feats from him and Talisman beating him?

We didn't see the fight with the Talisman from 20,000 beat him face to face. the Talisman from 10,000 tricked him using the spell that the Talisman 20,000 years ago beat him (we saw that fight though) with and the CURRENT Talisman did not beat him face to face. He was defeated when her and Dr.Strange opened up the Gates of Light ultimately cancelling his Army of Darkness and due to the rules placed by Eternity he had to leave and wait another 10,000 years to return. Current Talisman at that time was still very inexperienced and didn;t know she could further tap into the memories of the previous Talisman;s.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He made Spectre into a BL. Brainiac 5 said his power penetrated the multiverse.

and? As I said Spectre has had incredible low feats, especially during that time. You can agree with that. To what extent though, they never say hence why I said it's inconclusive. People traveling to different universes causes a mutliverse anaomly as noted by Barry Allen when he used to hop around.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Elaborate please.

One beat was taking on thousands of Gods in Secret Invasion, and just 5 (not even all of them) were taking on the Chaos King and his army and were winning.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
ST has beaten beings that dwarf Nightmare in power.

Absolutely, I'm not saying Dreamqueen is on that level but that she has reality warping abilities as she can control her dimension and you mentioned you wanted an example of something doing that.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Guess I'll take your word for it, but IIRC Herc was getting in some good hits too.

He was, but then was starting to lose it and then Snowbird stabbed the Skrull King in the back with Demogorge's spine.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Captain atom in quantum field has created and destroyed a universe on panel. Again white entity restored him at full power and then he was bfred by nekron with a gesture. C'mon man.

he has, but he was also upgraded then.

What multi-verse feat has the white entity done?

Yeah and? What happened when the Spectre tried to fight the King of Tears? Some things he literally can't fight due to the rules. Don't c'mon me, this is in fact stated.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I didn't say he beat COIE level antimonitor

but as I said he was weakened and near death so what Nekron did was hardly that impressive.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well either way I'm glad to have an interesting and challenging debate, thank you K M

👆 same to you

Originally posted by abhilegend
Two words, miracle machine.

👆, which I always wondered what happened to the duplicate Superman created on Earth? It was never mentioned again as far as I recall

Originally posted by -K-M-
Who Hal?

Spectre in general, host or not, over the past decade.

Except not once here did she have intent to fight and why would she when she sees it's a "baby" as you called him. Not once was she serious about fighting and the talk alone was enough to end it. Not convinced.

Well if you read the scans all of the spirits and elementals would have been babies too since this universe was rather young, having been recently created by Lucifer, but she had no qualms about forcing the others out. It seems to me that she realized Swampy would be a bigger problem so she tried the negotiation route.

Yep, everyone she and Shaman (Talisman II) have used to do their bidding. Also on that note everything that exists has a spirit

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/AlphaFlight35-22.jpg

That doesn't mean you can just assume she can pull a spirit out of her ass to do anything she can think of. Could she summon "the spirit of beating the Living Tribunal" and lay the smack-down on ol' three-faces? 🙄

With that particular spell, but with the spirit of time and space she could see everything.

Do you have a scan of this? Also in Abaton it would be impossible to find ST if she was looking for him.

Yeah against Llan who is drastically above Swamp Thing

I still remain to be convinced of this

nor does she have three years of prep which she has here. If you didn't give her such a huge amount of prep I would give the nod to Swamp Thing to win, but with her powers and her abilities to prep for three years? Way to much time.

As I mentioned, ST can distort time so he could give himself prep in a short time, he can also expand his mind to comprehend all reality.

So he still had help regardless. I believe he could cross on his own, but as I said the Source Wall isn't what it once was.

You think Talisman could escape from it? Or what if all of her teammates get trees in the brain or their souls crushed and then she's fighting alone against Swampy and the rest of DC Earth? (as a side note I'm still not convinced tree in the brain wouldn't work here - even if she can summon the native american spirit of growing or plants or whatever, I'd think ST would be way above that spirit and able to overrule it).

From a sneak attack which didn't cause her serious pain nor did it even cause her rage to even make her want to fight a "baby" as you call him. Not once was Elaine serious, not even during the talk.

See above

Are you talking when CA when to the Wildstorm universe? He was upgraded then. They sure are, but they really didn't have much feats especially elemental Firestorm and even Galan a huge supporter of Firestorm can attest to.

No, he used the Quantum Field to beat Nekron the first time. Elemental Firestorm actually had some pretty amazing feats, like holding the entire universe in his hand:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/fs_elemental6.jpg

Because the writers didn't use her, why didn't the Celestials, Eternity, abstracts etc. fight CK?....because the writer didn't write that

All those guys weren't on Earth. Talisman was. Cho even asked Hercules if he wanted to summon those guys and he said no... nothing about Talisman. But let me just get something straight: Do you think she could beat CK in a straight-up fight?

Not really, was she looking for a fight in the first place? No. She also saw he was a baby a term you coined so why fight a baby?

Same reason she fought and banished all of the other "baby" spirits and elementals.

Sure is, but from your ABC logic you stated he was and I quote "Spectre = Cable Arcane <<<<<<< Tefe < ST." Wanna retract that statement then?

No I didn't, not once. I said the Great Beasts were fighting and beating the Choas King and his army...which they did until Snowbird stopped them. Talisman wasn't even present during the Choas War.

But you seemed to be implying that Talisman > Great Beasts > CK. If so I don't see why Swamp Thing > Tefe > Arcane Cable/Spectre isn't just as valid.

There was talk about how would Talisman know all these attacks? Well....the Gods would tell her. Think of it as a mystical wikipedia.

The Talisman feeds the user information and details such as the re-emergence of Alpha Flight's most powerful foe, Llan.
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-07.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-11.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-14.jpg
4. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-15.jpg
5. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-18.jpg
6. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-19.jpg
7. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-20.jpg
8. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-21.jpg
9. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-22.jpg
10. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-23.jpg
11. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-24.jpg

Talisman feeding the user information about Llan and the location he teleports them to
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-03.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-07.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-09.jpg
4. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-15.jpg
5. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-20.jpg
6. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-21.jpg

Once again Talisman feeds the user information
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight73-04.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight73-05.jpg
------
Anywyas I'm gone for the rest of the night and possibly most of tommorow due to work. Not sure when I will be able to reply back. I enjoyed that Mike 👆

Originally posted by -K-M-
and where did it say he was drastically amped?

Except many people claim to be death that's my point. Did we see any multiversal dealing in Blackest Night? Nope.

We didn't see the fight with the Talisman from 20,000 beat him face to face. the Talisman from 10,000 tricked him using the spell that the Talisman 20,000 years ago beat him (we saw that fight though) with and the CURRENT Talisman did not beat him face to face. He was defeated when her and Dr.Strange opened up the Gates of Light ultimately cancelling his Army of Darkness and due to the rules placed by Eternity he had to leave and wait another 10,000 years to return. Current Talisman at that time was still very inexperienced and didn;t know she could further tap into the memories of the previous Talisman;s.

and? As I said Spectre has had incredible low feats, especially during that time. You can agree with that. To what extent though, they never say hence why I said it's inconclusive. People traveling to different universes causes a mutliverse anaomly as noted by Barry Allen when he used to hop around.

One beat was taking on thousands of Gods in Secret Invasion, and just 5 (not even all of them) were taking on the Chaos King and his army and were winning.

Absolutely, I'm not saying Dreamqueen is on that level but that she has reality warping abilities as she can control her dimension and you mentioned you wanted an example of something doing that.

He was, but then was starting to lose it and then Snowbird stabbed the Skrull King in the back with Demogorge's spine.

he has, but he was also upgraded then.

What multi-verse feat has the white entity done?

Yeah and? What happened when the Spectre tried to fight the King of Tears? Some things he literally can't fight due to the rules. Don't c'mon me, this is in fact stated.

but as I said he was weakened and near death so what Nekron did was hardly that impressive.

👆 same to you

Originally posted by -K-M-
and where did it say he was drastically amped?

The whole Blackest Night thing, threatening the multiverse was putting him on a scale he had never accomplished before.

Except many people claim to be death that's my point. Did we see any multiversal dealing in Blackest Night? Nope.

Brainiac 5's instruments read that Blackest Night affected the multiverse, and the Black Lanterns reached alternate universes such as Earth Prime where they fought SBP.

We didn't see the fight with the Talisman from 20,000 beat him face to face. the Talisman from 10,000 tricked him using the spell that the Talisman 20,000 years ago beat him with and the CURRENT Talisman did not beat him face to face. He was defeated when her and Dr.Strange opened up the Gates of Light ultimately cancelling his Army of Darkness and due to the rules placed by Eternity he had to leave and wait another 10,000 years to return.

So she didn't defeat him in direct combat or overpower him, she had to trick him, and had help. ST downright overpowered the druids and Arcane Cable, and BL ST.

and? As I said Spectre has had incredible low feats, especially during that time. You can agree with that.

In comics, everyone has "incredibly low feats". Trying to bring them up every time you want to discredit a character is bad form.

To what extent though, they never say hence why I said it's inconclusive. People traveling to different universes causes a mutliverse anaomly as noted by Barry Allen when he used to hop around.

The Black Lanterns entered every universe, such as Earth-Prime:

http://i39.tinypic.com/xvww5.jpg

One beat was taking on thousands of Gods in Secret Invasion, and just 5 (not even all of them) were taking on the Chaos King and his army and were winning.

Those gods were of unknown power... and if they obviously didn't beat CK so what happened to cause them to lose then?

Besides, the fact remains that the druid conquered that universe in a matter of decades, because it wasn't conquered in the earlier Nightmaster stories.

Absolutely, I'm not saying Dreamqueen is on that level but that she has reality warping abilities as she can control her dimension and you mentioned you wanted an example of something doing that.

Yeah but I mean Talisman managing to overpower a universe controller

He was, but then was starting to lose it and then Snowbird stabbed the Skrull King in the back with Demogorge's spine.

So the Skrull Gods probably are around high Herald level at best then

he has, but he was also upgraded then.

What multi-verse feat has the white entity done?

Yeah and? What happened when the Spectre tried to fight the King of Tears? Some things he literally can't fight due to the rules. Don't c'mon me, this is in fact stated.

Yes but there's also the fact Spectre was made into a BL

but as I said he was weakened and near death so what Nekron did was hardly that impressive.

Was he really? He seemed to be regaining power and believed he could take on Nekron where so many others had failed.

same to you

Thanks

Originally posted by abhilegend
I am not talking about wildstorm atom though. Let me check that up. I was talking about what you said that AM was near dead when nekron beat him, he wasn't. Except being the light that created everything in DCU, not much.😬
I can c'mon you any time I want, you're canadian.sneer

Please do, be interested

He was near death when he was impriosned in the Black Lantern which was mentioned earlier. When Nekron beat him when he was escaping the Black Lantern he was DRASTICALLY weakened and not at full power as I said.

In the specific universe, didn't say multiverse

and damn proud of it.
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but that's my last post for awhile. Sorry guys.