Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😕Hell is in your head, and I feel sorry for you. I wish I could free you from this prison you are in, but there are no doors on your cell. I can't set you free.
Hell is a real place.
Don't go there!
God sets before you life and death.
Choose life!
Originally posted by Bardock42
Which one's the true one?
* according to the Bible --- it is the Church of God, written by Saint Paul more than ten times in his epistles...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
What's your point in citing Romans 12:9? I have already stated that I attend church regularly. I attend a non-denominational church.
* if you'll just look it up in Greek, the word "cleave" is kollaō (G2853) which means "to join one's self to"... which completely destroys your belief that the church is something that a person joins into...
* the term "non-denominational church" is a misnomer... 😆 that "non-denominational church" you're attending to? it's one of the fake denominations of the Christian Church... there is one true Church in the Bible and that's (i repeat) the Church of God, written by Saint Paul more than ten times in his epistles...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I never said anything about uniting denominations. The Lord Jesus did not institute denominations--satan did, to create division and confusion.
* satan is triumphant in you, JIA... coz you're obviously confused... Jesus built the Church (Matthew 16:18), the verse is clear --- READ IT... and satan, to create division and confusion, built fake/false churches and religions... so there is a true Church/religion, we just have to examine which one is it...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]Neither baptism, nor communion, church attendance, nor reading the Bible makes a person a member of Christ's body (i.e. saved or born again).The only thing that makes a person a member of Christ's body is that person's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation are instantly baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ's body i.e. the church.
Now once a person is born again i.e. baptized into Christ's body the church, he/she should then be baptized, partake of communion, attend a local church, and read his/her Bible.[/B]
* faith and good works, JIA... you cannot be saved nor justified through faith alone (James 2:24)...
* continuing to abide by the words of Christ (John 8:31, I Corinthians 15:1-2), and persevere/endure, will be saved (Matthew 10:22, 24:13)...
* being born again or being baptized is a requirement for those who know the doctrine (John 3:3-5) and not to those do not know the doctrine (II Peter 2:20-21)...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
When I say that the Lord Jesus did not start a church, I am speaking semantically. [B]My purpose is to dispel the the myth that the church is something that a person joins.You do not join the church (speaking semantically) of the Lord Jesus, you become born again into the family of God, baptized His Spirit into Christ's spiritual body i.e. the church. You become a member (i.e. part of the spiritual organism that is Christ's body). You become a part of those are called-out ones. That's what church means i.e. the called-out ones. You are a child of God. You are redeemed from your sins.
It's all semantics.[/B]
* even if you're speaking semantically as you claim, it is wrong to say that Christ did not start a Church when it was clearly written word-for-word in Matthew 16:18... you're creating confusion, JIA... and you cannot dispel something which is not a myth, because Romans 12:9 tells us to join that which is good...
Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible --- it is the Church of God, written by Saint Paul more than ten times in his epistles...* if you'll just look it up in Greek, the word "cleave" is kollaō (G2853) which means "to join one's self to"... which completely destroys your belief that the church is something that a person joins into...
* the term "non-denominational church" is a misnomer... 😆 that "non-denominational church" you're attending to? it's one of the fake denominations of the Christian Church... there is one true Church in the Bible and that's (i repeat) the Church of God, written by Saint Paul more than ten times in his epistles...
* satan is triumphant in you, JIA... coz you're obviously confused... Jesus built the Church (Matthew 16:18), the verse is clear --- READ IT... and satan, to create division and confusion, built fake/false churches and religions... so there is a true Church/religion, we just have to examine which one is it...
* faith and good works, JIA... you cannot be saved nor justified through faith alone (James 2:24)...
* continuing to abide by the words of Christ (John 8:31, I Corinthians 15:1-2), and persevere/endure, will be saved (Matthew 10:22, 24:13)...
* being born again or being baptized is a requirement for those who know the doctrine (John 3:3-5) and not to those do not know the doctrine (II Peter 2:20-21)...
* even if you're speaking semantically as you claim, it is wrong to say that Christ did not start a Church when it was clearly written word-for-word in Matthew 16:18... you're creating confusion, JIA... and you cannot dispel something which is not a myth, because Romans 12:9 tells us to join that which is good...
The devil is not triumphant in me, he has nothing in me.
Paul was not introducing a denomination, he was simply talking about the body of Christ at large as a spiritual organism of called out ones from this world system. Christ did not die to start a denomination. Christ died to so that we could become His family.
No, you do not join yourself to anyone but Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to join a denominational church. We assemble ourselves with the local church. We may even join a local church (semantically speaking) in the sense that we are regulars there, we pay our tithes and offerings there, we hear the Word there, we serve there, we pray for one another and fellowship there, and even become registered members (again, speaking semantically).
But what I am referring to is this notion that the church at large (i.e. the spiritual organism that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into, uniting us with Christ, in His Kingdom) is something that you join, like a club or organization. The church is not an organization--we are a spiritual something, a family--the body of Christ.
Let me ask you something...did you join your family or were you born into your family?
With all due respect, the answer to the above question should end this discussion.
Besides, I have already answered all of the points in your post in my previous post. I explained the meaning of James 2:24 (see post below this one for my teaching on James 2:24).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I answered every single point that you made, and refuted them one by one.No, I don't believe that John the Baptist said a prayer and sprinkled the Lord Jesus. I stated that John the Baptist baptized the Lord Jesus, and that the Lord permitted John to do so in order to fulfill all righteousness i.e. model baptism for us.
I believe that the Lord Jesus was fully immersed in the Jordan River by John the Baptist. However, I do not believe that baptism is necessary for a person to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith. Not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Baptism is a work and works do not save us. But salvation is a gift, a gift that Jesus freely gives those who ask Him. A person cannot earn a gift for then it would cease to be a gift. Anything you have to work for is not a gift--but a work. We do not have to work for salvation. Christ did all that was necessary for us to be saved when He shed His blood on the cross, died, was buried, and raised on the third day.
James 2:14-26 talks about faith without works is dead. What James is referring to is corresponding actions or fruit that shows your faith (i.e. that conversion has actually taken place in your heart and life).
John the Baptist put it this way,
Matthew 3:6-8
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance ,James is not contadicting the the apostle Paul who stated in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by our works. In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul uses the word works to stand for anything that we attempt to do in an effort to earn or merit our way into Heaven (which is impossible to do).
But the word works that James uses means actions that demonstrate that conversion has actually occurred in our lives. This is the obvious context for understanding this passage in James based on James 2:15-17.
For example, let's say a person claims that they have turned over a new leaf so he does not sleep around anymore. He's given his life to Christ, and he's focused on living holy. But then you see him going to clubs and bringing various women back to his place every weekend. Would you believe that person's testimony that he's saved?
The answer is no because he does not have any works (i.e. corresponding actions consistent with someone who is saved) to show his faith.
That's all James was saying.
Now, I said all that to say this: if baptism saved anyone that would be a work and we are not saved by our works. So baptism is not necessary for salvation. Now, baptism is necessary to show our obedience to the Lord Jesus' command, but since it is a work--it does not save us. I'll leave you with this link I came across:
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The devil is not triumphant in me, he has nothing in me.Paul was not introducing a denomination, he was simply talking about the body of Christ at large as a spiritual organism of called out ones from this world system. Christ did not die to start a denomination. [b]Christ died to so that we could become His family.
No, you do not join yourself to anyone but Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to join a denominational church. We assemble ourselves with the local church. We may even join a local church (semantically speaking) in the sense that we are regulars there, we pay our tithes and offerings there, we hear the Word there, we serve there, we pray for one another and fellowship there, and even become registered members (again, speaking semantically).
But what I am referring to is this notion that the church at large (i.e. the spiritual organism that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into, uniting us with Christ, in His Kingdom) is something that you join, like a club or organization. The church is not an organization--we are a spiritual something, a family--the body of Christ.
Let me ask you something...did you join your family or were you born into your family?
With all due respect, the answer to the above question should end this discussion.
Besides, I have already answered all of the points in your post in my previous post. I explained the meaning of James 2:24 (see post below this one for my teaching on James 2:24). [/B]
* you are stubborn, JIA...
"Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good."
"agapē anypokritos apostygeō ponēros kollaō agathos"
Romans 12:9
* and what is the meaning of "cleave" or kollaō?
- to glue, to glue together, cement, fasten together, to join or fasten firmly together, to join one's self to, cleave to...
* stop talking about semantics when you don't understand what you're talking about...
* Christ did not start a church??? CHRIST BUILT THE CHURCH... please read:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18
* now, how does that end the discussion? JIA, the only thing you're good at, is ignoring the points i give... but you cannot even refute it according to the Bible... what you only have, is your stubborn belief that you think you are saved but in fact, you're just as ordinary as all of us...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I believe that the Lord Jesus was fully immersed in the Jordan River by John the Baptist. However, I do not believe that baptism is necessary for a person to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith. Not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)Baptism is a work and works do not save us. But salvation is a gift, a gift that Jesus freely gives those who ask Him. A person cannot earn a gift for then it would cease to be a gift. Anything you have to work for is not a gift--but a work. We do not have to work for salvation. Christ did all that was necessary for us to be saved when He shed His blood on the cross, died, was buried, and raised on the third day.
* this --- again --- proves you know nothing about the words of God... you claimed that baptism --- the baptism which was done by Jesus and His apostles --- cannot save? then why in the blue hell did Jesus commanded to baptize all nations if it is not beneficial for salvation? your belief is stupid...
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
I Peter 3:20-21
* again, the Bible says the baptism can save... you're revealing yourself to be an anti-Bible, JIA...
* another thing, you must first identify what kind of "work" is beneficial for salvation and what kind of "work" is not...
* let's start your Lesson 101, JIA... you are over-using Ephesians 2:8-9... Saint Paul was not saying that faith alone can save... no! in fact, if you'll just continue the verse, he'll tell you the kind of "work" we should be doing:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10
* faith goes hand-in-hand with good works...
* now, what kind of "work" is not counted for salvation? is it "good works"? good works are ordained by God beforehand... read this:
"Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"
Titus 3:5
* works that we did ourselves... works without God... those are the works that is not beneficial for salvation! read again:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9
* see? we will not be saved by the works we did ourselves... but we can be saved by good works because good works are inspired and prepared by God:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Philippians 2:12-13
* now this --- can be the end of the discussion... because we both know you are wrong, and your belief is ridiculous and stupid... and please, stop giving the Christianity a bad name...
Originally posted by peejayd
* you are stubborn, JIA..."Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; [b]cleave to that which is good
.""agapē anypokritos apostygeō ponēros kollaō agathos"
Romans 12:9* and what is the meaning of "cleave" or kollaō?
- to glue, to glue together, cement, fasten together, to join or fasten firmly together, to join one's self to, cleave to...
* stop talking about semantics when you don't understand what you're talking about...
* Christ did not start a church??? CHRIST BUILT THE CHURCH... please read:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18* now, how does that end the discussion? JIA, the only thing you're good at, is ignoring the points i give... but you cannot even refute it according to the Bible... what you only have, is your stubborn belief that you think you are saved but in fact, you're just as ordinary as all of us...
* this --- again --- proves you know nothing about the words of God... you claimed that baptism --- the baptism which was done by Jesus and His apostles --- cannot save? then why in the blue hell did Jesus commanded to baptize all nations if it is not beneficial for salvation? your belief is stupid...
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
I Peter 3:20-21* again, the Bible says the baptism can save... you're revealing yourself to be an anti-Bible, JIA...
* another thing, you must first identify what kind of "work" is beneficial for salvation and what kind of "work" is not...
* let's start your Lesson 101, JIA... you are over-using Ephesians 2:8-9... Saint Paul was not saying that faith alone can save... no! in fact, if you'll just continue the verse, he'll tell you the kind of "work" we should be doing:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10* faith goes hand-in-hand with good works...
* now, what kind of "work" is not counted for salvation? is it "good works"? good works are ordained by God beforehand... read this:
"Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"
Titus 3:5* works that we did ourselves... works without God... those are the works that is not beneficial for salvation! read again:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9* see? we will not be saved by the works we did ourselves... but we can be saved by good works because good works are inspired and prepared by God:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Philippians 2:12-13* now this --- can be the end of the discussion... because we both know you are wrong, and your belief is ridiculous and stupid... and please, stop giving the Christianity a bad name... [/B]
Part 1
You didn't answer my question.
Did you join your family or were you born into your family?
Semantically speaking I understand what you mean by join a church, but really it is a misnomer because you don't join a family, you're born into one.
You are misapplying Romans 12:9 to support your belief in denominationalism and/or for joining a church. That verse is not talking about joining a church, it's an exhortation to not only do good--but to cling to what is good i.e. separate oneself from what is not good or evil and adhere to what is good (which is the antithesis of what is bad). So the Lord wants every aspect of our lives to be about doing and being good so much so that He instructs us through Paul's letter to the Romans to cling to it.
That's it. Nothing more is conveyed in that phrase.
When the Lord Jesus said that He will build His church He was referring to His family of called-out-ones (i.e. those who have believed on Jesus with their word). Now, when I say that the Lord Jesus didn't start a church I am not saying that His church does not exist or that He did not establish a group of people that are called by His Name who are born again, saved, who do His Word, and on their way to Heaven. Because He did. What I am simply saying (semantically) is that the Lord's purpose for doing so wasn't just so that He'd have millions of pious people who exhibited a form of godliness (externally), but who were not truly born again (internally). Secondly, I mean that the Lord Jesus is not just another religious Leader or Figure out starting religious organizations, who is just another path to God.
Simply put the Lord Jesus is the only way to God, the eternal Creator Himself Who came to earth to bring us back to the Father. His purpose wasn't just to start a religious organization (it goes deeper than that), but to create a group of new creatures or creations in Christ who are conformed to His image (Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 5:17). We are supposed to look, talk, act, think, and speak just like the Lord Jesus--spiritually-speaking. When the Father looks at us He should see His Son--that's what it means to be in Christ. The Lord Jesus is the mold or template that the Father used to make us--spiritually-speaking--when were born again.
This is deeper than just being religious. (Semantically speaking) The Father never intended for His family to just be a bunch of religious people with no life in themselves obeying the letter of the law. He intened for us to be full of His Spirit, full of life, full of faith and victory--obeying His Word from the heart out of love for Him. The Father envisioned His family clothed with the righteousness of His dear Son Jesus so that when He looks at us, we are without spot or blemish in His sight.
Originally posted by peejayd
* you are stubborn, JIA..."Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; [b]cleave to that which is good
.""agapē anypokritos apostygeō ponēros kollaō agathos"
Romans 12:9* and what is the meaning of "cleave" or kollaō?
- to glue, to glue together, cement, fasten together, to join or fasten firmly together, to join one's self to, cleave to...
* stop talking about semantics when you don't understand what you're talking about...
* Christ did not start a church??? CHRIST BUILT THE CHURCH... please read:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18* now, how does that end the discussion? JIA, the only thing you're good at, is ignoring the points i give... but you cannot even refute it according to the Bible... what you only have, is your stubborn belief that you think you are saved but in fact, you're just as ordinary as all of us...
* this --- again --- proves you know nothing about the words of God... you claimed that baptism --- the baptism which was done by Jesus and His apostles --- cannot save? then why in the blue hell did Jesus commanded to baptize all nations if it is not beneficial for salvation? your belief is stupid...
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
I Peter 3:20-21* again, the Bible says the baptism can save... you're revealing yourself to be an anti-Bible, JIA...
* another thing, you must first identify what kind of "work" is beneficial for salvation and what kind of "work" is not...
* let's start your Lesson 101, JIA... you are over-using Ephesians 2:8-9... Saint Paul was not saying that faith alone can save... no! in fact, if you'll just continue the verse, he'll tell you the kind of "work" we should be doing:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10* faith goes hand-in-hand with good works...
* now, what kind of "work" is not counted for salvation? is it "good works"? good works are ordained by God beforehand... read this:
"Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"
Titus 3:5* works that we did ourselves... works without God... those are the works that is not beneficial for salvation! read again:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9* see? we will not be saved by the works we did ourselves... but we can be saved by good works because good works are inspired and prepared by God:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Philippians 2:12-13* now this --- can be the end of the discussion... because we both know you are wrong, and your belief is ridiculous and stupid... and please, stop giving the Christianity a bad name... [/B]
Part 2
You are absolutely correct: we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, and we should definitely walk in them (i.e. good works). The Father ordained this. However, the Father did not ordain that our good works would be the basis of our salvation i.e. He did not ordain that our good works would save us.
Our good works should be the evidence of our salvation not the source of it. The source of our salvation is the shed Blood of Jesus--period.
Our good works should be the fruit that demonstrates that true conversion has taken place in our heart and lives. This is what James is talking about in James 2:14-26. True heart conversion should accompany changed conduct, behavior, and lifestyle in conformity, and obedience to the Father's Word. If it does not then our faith is dead. Meaning it has not truly produced in us the new birth because it has not impacted our actions.
Titus 3:5 and other Scriptures that you employ actually refute your claims and bolster mine. According to Titus we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done which goes hand-in-hand with what the apostle Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9, and with what I've been saying. We are saved solely by God's grace--through our faith, and not anything else (not even baptism).
Side note: washing of regeneration is just another way of metaphorically referring to being born again. It is not a reference to baptism.
Regeneration is what happens to the spirit of a person who has received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The person becomes a new creation in Christ Jesus. He/she has been made new i.e. made a new creature by the Holy Spirit. His/her sins have been washed in the Blood of Jesus (Revelation 1:5).
To understand what the apostle Paul is talking about in Philippians 2:12-13 you have to examine the context, and go back to the preceding verses (i.e. verses 1-11). Those verses describe the humility of the Lord Jesus. Immeditately after verse 11 the apostle Paul says "Therefore..." He then goes on to say "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." The apostle Paul is exhorting the Phillipians to have the same mind of the Lord Jesus.
What mind is that you ask?
A mind that is humble. A mind of humility.
Those verses from 1-12 are talking about humility. Just go back up to verse 3 where Paul starts his exhortation.
Phillipians 2:3
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Paul instructs the Phillipians to let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit--but in lowlines of mind (i.e. humility). Moreover, the apostle Paul goes on to use the Lord Jesus as a model for how the Philippians (and the rest of the body of Christ) should think, behave, and conduct themselves. The apostle Paul says,
Let this mind (i.e. mindset, thinking, or attitude) be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Paul explains how the Lord Himself made Himself of no reputation and how He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Upon laying the foundation for how the Philippians should think and behave Paul says, "Therefore," and then goes on to exhort them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The apostle Paul is not implying that the Philippians' salvation is something that is accomplished, attained, or effected by their works (i.e. good deeds). The apostle just got done telling the Ephesians that we they saved by grace--not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
God will not afford any person to stand before Him with bragging rights. Not one saved person will be able to boast about how they made it to Heaven on the strength of their own good works, good deeds, or self-righteous merit.
I like what the apostle Paul says:
Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
I second that brother Paul. God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul understood what I have labored to convey and explain: that we are not saved by our good works. If we were saved by our good works then we would have reason whereof to boast before God. Friend, we are saved by grace through faith--period. Now that we are saved (and our salvation is not based on our good works) we should be bearing much fruit and letting our light so shine that others might see our good works and glorify our Father in Heaven. We should be walking in those good works that the Father ordained that we should walk in otherwise our faith is dead (i.e. hypocritical and useless because we have no evidence that we have changed).
Well, maybe Abraham was saved by his good works you say. Nope. Not even Abraham could be justified (i.e. declared righteous) before God. If Abraham were saved by his works as some believe who misinterpret (James 2:21-24) then he would have something to boast (or brag) about. However, the apostle Paul says that not even Abraham--the man who was prepared to sacrifice his only son to God--could boast before God.
Romans 4:1-3
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Abraham was saved by faith just like everyone else. Abraham had to believe God just like you and me in order to be declared righteous in God's sight.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]Part 1You didn't answer my question.
Did you join your family or were you born into your family?
Semantically speaking I understand what you mean by join a church, but really it is a misnomer because you don't join a family, you're born into one.
You are misapplying Romans 12:9 to support your belief in denominationalism and/or for joining a church. That verse is not talking about joining a church, it's an exhortation to not only do good--but to cling to what is good i.e. separate oneself from what is not good or evil and adhere to what is good (which is the antithesis of what is bad). So the Lord wants every aspect of our lives to be about doing and being good so much so that He instructs us through Paul's letter to the Romans to cling to it.
That's it. Nothing more is conveyed in that phrase. [/B]
* why should i answer your question, when you already believe that your post will be the end of discussion? you are so vain...
* nothing more is conveyed to you, because you know little about spirituality... Romans 12:9 can also be a parallel for James 4:7, by abhoring evil, you are resisting the devil... and by cleaving good (i.e. joining the Church of God) you submit yourself to God...
* and you said one thing right though...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So the Lord wants every aspect of our lives to be about doing and being good so much so that He instructs us through Paul's letter to the Romans to cling to it.
* God wants us to do good, why? because we can be saved by doing good works...
"To them who, in patient continuance of good works, seek for glory and honour and incorruptibility, life eternal."
Romans 2:7
* but, you cannot refute the fact that the essence and the real meaning of the verse commands us to join that which is good...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Now, when I say that the Lord Jesus didn't start a church I am not saying that His church does not exist or that He did not establish a group of people that are called by His Name who are born again, saved, who do His Word, and on their way to Heaven. Because He did.
* then, just stop saying otherwise! you're confusing... and basically, by doing so, you're actually contradicting the words of God in the Bible...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Side note: washing of regeneration is just another way of metaphorically referring to being born again. It is not a reference to baptism.
* being born again and being baptized is virtually synonymous...
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
John 3:3, 5
"That he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,"
Ephesian 5:26
* Jesus answered Nicodemus wisely and He interpreted His own words so it won't be taken literally...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Paul explains how the Lord Himself made Himself of no reputation and how He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Upon laying the foundation for how the Philippians should think and behave Paul says, "Therefore," and then goes on to exhort them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The apostle Paul is not implying that the Philippians' salvation is something that is accomplished, attained, or effected by their works (i.e. good deeds). The apostle just got done telling the Ephesians that we they saved by grace--not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.God will not afford any person to stand before Him with bragging rights. Not one saved person will be able to boast about how they made it to Heaven on the strength of their own good works, good deeds, or self-righteous merit.
* this is a very shallow argument, JIA... you are now saying that when a person did good works, he actually gained bragging rights to God? what kind of sick mentality is that? when Saint Paul said in Ephesians 2:10 that it was God who ordained good works, there is no reason to brag about... when a person had done good works, he is not doing works himself, he is only walking in the good works prepared by God... so is there something to brag about?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
Ecclesiastes 12:13
"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."
Luke 17:10
* there's nothing to brag about if you know that all the good things you have done did not come from yourself!
"For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?"
I Corinthians 4:7
* even if we do good works, there's nothing to brag about in front of God...
* in fact, the bragging part comes in when you did good works and did not acknowledged that it came from God, but just by yourself only... that's the essence of I Corinthians 4:7... and that's the point of Titus 3:5 --- not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves...
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Well, maybe Abraham was saved by his good works you say. Nope. Not even Abraham could be justified (i.e. declared righteous) before God. If Abraham were saved by his works as some believe who misinterpret (James 2:21-24) then he would have something to boast (or brag) about. However, the apostle Paul says that not even Abraham--the man who was prepared to sacrifice his only son to God--could boast before God.Abraham was saved by faith just like everyone else. Abraham had to believe God just like you and me in order to be declared righteous in God's sight.
* it is now obvious that you are misinterpreting James 2... Saint James was not saying that Abraham was justified by works alone, no! read it again:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,"
James 2:21-22
* Saint James was not dispelling the salvation and justification through faith... he was just reiterating that the faith that can save and justify us is the faith with works... and the works is the good works ordained by God beforehand...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Do you know what a Buddha is?
Yes, a purported enlightened one.
But that is a lie of the devil.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t587086.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586713&pagenumber=7#post14512113
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587086&pagenumber=1#post14510871 (click here if you can handle the Truth)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587086&pagenumber=1#post14510888
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t587049.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14510387#post14510387
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14510685#post14510685
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587086&pagenumber=1#post14510714
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587086&pagenumber=1#post14510772