Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Skipping ahead. I know where he is going, and a potter is Not a good analog for god.
Actually it was an analogy for the authority of God, not the existence.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
So God can do whatever he wants because he's All-Powerful? God isn't subject to his own morality?
God isn't violating his own "morals", that's impossible, at least in the understanding of the Judeo-Christian God, because the nature of God himself determines morals. He might be violating what you define as moral though, yes. If you want to be a bit fancier though (I suspect you may) the discussion could get real messy, but I don't think I'm interested. But then again, you weren't addressing me in the first place...😄
Originally posted by Placidity
Actually it was an analogy for the authority of God, not the existence.
Not a good analogy for anything to do with god. A potter would have to make the clay out of nothing, and the vases the potter would make would always be perfect. The greater the potter the better the pot, therefore god would be the perfect potter and his pots would also be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore god is not a perfect potter.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A potter cannot create clay out of nothing.
You've just buttressed my point even more than I saw originally.
Thanks to you not only does the potter have power over the clay (which would be sufficient to make my point), but based on your statement God is even more justified.
You see a human potter has power over the clay to do with it as he wishes--and he didn't create the clay from nothing. The human potter reserves this much power over clay that he manufactured from pre-existent materials.
However, God created the clay from nothing. So how much more power does God have over the clay than the human potter? I say even more power than the human potter.
Thanks Shakyamunison.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
So God can do whatever he wants because he's All-Powerful? God isn't subject to his own morality?
God is not just omnipotent (i.e. all-powerful or almighty); God is also Love.
God is subject only to His Word.
Whatever His Word says, He must do or abide by.
For example, God says in His Word "Do not lie."
So God cannot lie.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You've just buttressed my point even more than I saw originally.Thanks to you not only does the potter have power over the clay (which would be sufficient to make my point), but based on your statement [B]God is even more justified.
You see a human potter has power over the clay to do with it as he wishes--and he didn't create the clay from nothing. The human potter reserves this much power over clay that he manufactured from pre-existent materials.
However, God created the clay from nothing. So how much more power does God have over the clay than the human potter? I say even more power than the human potter.
Thanks Shakyamunison. [/B]
It is obvious to me that you have never worked with clay. It is more of a dance then a dominating art.
There is no original creation, ever! The universe has always existed is one form or another. The universe is not a creation, but a creator. The clay was not made from nothing; it was made from simpler atoms in the heart of stars. We are star dust.
It is more likely that the universe is God then your man-made god.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God is not just omnipotent (i.e. all-powerful or almighty); God is also Love.God is subject only to His Word.
Whatever His Word says, He must do or abide by.
For example, God says in His Word "Do not lie."
So God cannot lie.
Your god said do not kill, but then commanded the Jews to kill thousands of people. Your God also killed for more people in the story of Noah, so don't tell me that your god cannot lie.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not a good analogy for anything to do with god. A potter would have to make the clay out of nothing, and the vases the potter would make would always be perfect. The greater the potter the better the pot, therefore god would be the perfect potter and his pots would also be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore god is not a perfect potter.
Actually it is a very good analogy. So good in fact that the Apostle Paul (who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) used it.
Prior to Adam and Eve's fall and sin they were spiritually and morally innocent or righteous as far as keeping God's Word or law.
They did not have any sin or guilt in their heart or lives as long as they kept God's Word. So in a sense Adam and Eve were perfect (again, spiritually and morally) in God's eyes until their fall and sin.
At this juncture we are not perfect because sin resides in our members (i.e. our flesh or physical body). We have a sin nature. We think sin, talk sin, and commit sin.
But this is not a reflection on God (i.e. the Potter), this is a result of Adam and Eve's wrong choices. They chose to disobey God and it opened the door to sin and death.
The only fault if you would that you could lay to God's charge (for sake of this discussion although I affirm that God was not to blame in any way for Adam and Eve's disobedience) is that God created the first man and woman with the ability to choose right or wrong, good or evil, life or death.
God created Adam and Eve with a will.
Just like today we make wrong choices and then blame God for our stupidity.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is obvious to me that you have never worked with clay. It is more of a dance then a dominating art.There is no original creation, ever! The universe has always existed is one form or another. The universe is not a creation, but a creator. The clay was not made from nothing; it was made from simpler atoms in the heart of stars. We are star dust.
It is more likely that the universe is God then your man-made god.
Did you forget about my rebuttal?
Originally posted by Digi
...which displays a lack of understanding of my point. Or, more likely, tries to redirect the discussion to whatever you want to talk about. You're very annoying. Engage me, don't talk at me.
I am engaging you.
Why are you so upset?
I posed a question to you for your consideration. That is all.
Did it rub you the wrong way or did it explode your point?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Actually it is a very good analogy. So good in fact that the Apostle Paul (who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) used it.Prior to Adam and Eve's fall and sin [B]they were spiritually and morally innocent or righteous
as far as keeping God's Word or law.They did not have any sin or guilt in their heart or lives as long as they kept God's Word. So in a sense Adam and Eve were perfect (again, spiritually and morally) in God's eyes until their fall and sin.
At this juncture we are not perfect because sin resides in our members (i.e. our flesh or physical body). We have a sin nature. We think sin, talk sin, and commit sin.
But this is not a reflection on God (i.e. the Potter), this is a result of Adam and Eve's wrong choices. They chose to disobey God and it opened the door to sin and death.
The only fault if you would that you could lay to God's charge (for sake of this discussion although I affirm that God was not to blame in any way for Adam and Eve's disobedience) is that God created the first man and woman with the ability to choose right or wrong, good or evil, life or death.
God created Adam and Eve with a will.
Just like today we make wrong choices and then blame God for our stupidity. [/B]
Adam and Eve are just a story in a book. There are older stories about Adam and Eve, and put aside this idea of purity. Humans have always been imperfect, just like all other animals that have evolved on this planet.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Wait, wait wait wait...Isn't Christianity's main point of a human sacrifice? Or God becoming a man to make the sacrifice.Jesus WAS the human sacrifice. How do you blame devil for this...?
The main point of Christianity is that,
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
So the crux of Christianity is love.
God the Father loves people.
The Heavenly Father loves people so much that He gave.
The Father God loves people so much that He gave His only begotten Son.
God the Father loves people, God the Son loves people, and God the Holy Spirit loves people.
The Heavenly Father offers eternal life to anyone who will believe in His Son Jesus Christ, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and that God has raised Him from the dead
Christianity is a Person.
That Person is Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The main point of Christianity is that,[B]"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
So the crux of Christianity is love.
God the Father loves people.
The Heavenly Father loves people so much that He gave.
The Father God loves people so much that He gave His only begotten Son.
God the Father loves people, God the Son loves people, and God the Holy Spirit loves people.
The Heavenly Father offers eternal life to anyone who will believe in His Son Jesus Christ, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and that God has raised Him from the dead
Christianity is a Person.
That Person is Jesus Christ.
[/B]
Why all the hoops? If God is love, then Jesus was not needed.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not a good analogy for anything to do with god. A potter would have to make the clay out of nothing, and the vases the potter would make would always be perfect. The greater the potter the better the pot, therefore god would be the perfect potter and his pots would also be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore god is not a perfect potter.
I'd note that, in the Genesis account, God never said his creation was "perfect" but "good".
Seems to me that the universe/existence was always intended to be imperfect.
However, this is extremely subjective. To another person, like a Mormon, we would consider this "imperfection" actually the perfect existence for what it is intended. So, one person's imperfection is another person's perfection.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'd note that, in the Genesis account, God never said his creation was "perfect" but "good".Seems to me that the universe/existence was always intended to be imperfect.
However, this is extremely subjective. To another person, like a Mormon, we would consider this "imperfection" actually the perfect existence for what it is intended. So, one person's imperfection is another person's perfection.
Yes, I would agree. The universe is perfect in it's imperfection.
I believe that there is no need for God to be perfect. My disagreement is the fact I don't believe in Satan.