Originally posted by Nephthys
Naturally. Which is why I propose a middle ground: That we question a claim only if given reason to. A reason aside form bias, of course. :3
Unfortunately, that's inevitably what the issue always seems to come down to. Tobin's hyperbole-laced explanations are taken as the gospel while Dooku's equally hyperbole-laced explanations are tossed by the wayside.
Just in case you missed it, Janus.
[quote]Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So in other words what you're doing?
Me[/quote]
We've been over this. I don't barge in on the Nihilus vs. Palpatine thread and say anything along the lines of: "According to DESB, Palpatine can invent new Force powers at leisure so he invents a technique to block the giga-drain and kills Nihilus outright." Nor do I introduce Dooku's claim that Palpatine is an "event horizon" in the Force unless I'm being a.) facetious or b.) pointing out the very issue we're discussing here in terms of the discrepancy between sources.
Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
We've been over this. I don't barge in on the Nihilus vs. Palpatine thread and say anything along the lines of: "According to DESB, Palpatine can invent new Force powers at leisure so he invents a technique to block the giga-drain and kills Nihilus outright." Nor do I introduce Dooku's claim that Palpatine is an "event horizon" in the Force unless I'm being a.) facetious or b.) pointing out the very issue we're discussing here in terms of the discrepancy between sources.
That is true, I admit as much.
However, part of your basis of Sidious' unapproachable knowledge, etc. etc. is an absolutist one using similar sources such as the Dark Empire sourcebook, which was created well before beings such as Traya, Nihilus, Vitiate, etc. Hell, even Atris had an entire room of Sith holocrons at her disposal. We shouldn't assume that all techniques survived untouched over the warring eras nor should we assume he was the apex of knowledge based on generalizations, and therefore his credibility in all fields is equally beyond reproach.
As Neph said, we have no reason to doubt Kreia, especially since she learned from the source (Malachor V, a true Sith library planet of knowledge; we know that the TRue Sith possessed this power - Ragnos, Vitiate, etc.) and she trained Nihilus firsthand.
Perhaps when used by certain trained individuals it cannot be blocked by a potent Force user; the Dark Reaper is not a sentient Sith Lord/wound in the Force, and may operate under different principles.
If I took your skeptic approach, I'd be skeptical of Ulic's claim that it would work without restrictions, etc. especially given that Ulic failed to defend against a similar technique, the Wall of Light. Or I'd be skeptical of Dooku's claims on Sidious; on any source written by Sidious or in favor of him, etc. on the pretense that someone might be wrong. This is like ignoring doctor's orders and taking no medication because he could be wrong on a diagnosis.
Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
Unfortunately, that's inevitably what the issue always seems to come down to. Tobin's hyperbole-laced explanations are taken as the gospel while Dooku's equally hyperbole-laced explanations are tossed by the wayside.
I don't think so. We discard the hyperbole in Tobin's testimony just like we discard Dooku's 'black hole' bullshit. That doesn't mean we should doubt his word that Nihilus pulled the Ravager from Malachor or the facts that Dooku rattles off on his relationship with Sidious or whatever else he says I can't remember.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think so. We discard the hyperbole in Tobin's testimony just like we discard Dooku's 'black hole' bullshit. That doesn't mean we should doubt his word that Nihilus pulled the Ravager from Malachor or the facts that Dooku rattles off on his relationship with Sidious or whatever else he says I can't remember.
IIRC, a loading screen confirms his claim on the Ravager. I may be wrong.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kreia says that theres no defense. Considering she's pretty much the foremost scholar on the technique, I take her word. At the least, if she thinks theres no defense, then I doubt many other character can contraduct her.
It's like a Jedi can be master of TK and can defend well against TK attacks. However, if potential of his opponent surpasses him by far, he will have no defense against opponent's overwhelming TK.
Another example is Revan. He was master of absorbing lightning, however, there was no defense against lightning of Vitiate.
Farther considering how rarely galaxy gives birth to beings with immense power and chances of them to be actually trained to their full potential, then Kreya's statement is almost infinitely true.
Stealth Moose
That is true, I admit as much.
Thanks.
Stealth Moose
However, part of your basis of Sidious' unapproachable knowledge, etc. etc. is an absolutist one using similar sources such as the Dark Empire sourcebook, which was created well before beings such as Traya, Nihilus, Vitiate, etc.
The presence of Vitiate, Nihilus, and Kreia in no way contradicts the amount of knowledge Palpatine had at his disposal.
Stealth Moose
Hell, even Atris had an entire room of Sith holocrons at her disposal.
Clearly her knowledge base was significant.
Stealth Moose
We shouldn't assume that all techniques survived untouched over the warring eras
We never have.
Stealth Moose
nor should we assume he was the apex of knowledge based on generalizations, and therefore his credibility in all fields is equally beyond reproach.
We assume he is at the apex of knowledge because the knowledge base attributed to him is more vast than that of any single character and across a much broader range of sources.
Stealth Moose
As Neph said, we have no reason to doubt Kreia, especially since she learned from the source (Malachor V, a true Sith library planet of knowledge; we know that the TRue Sith possessed this power - Ragnos, Vitiate, etc.) and she trained Nihilus firsthand.
Given that Ulic has achieved a technique capable of resisting Force-stripping effects from a very similar attack, it stands to reason that Kreia's knowledge is not infinite. Her expertise, as I said, should not be lightly discarded but nor should it be treated as infallible.
Stealth Moose
Perhaps when used by certain trained individuals it cannot be blocked by a potent Force user; the Dark Reaper is not a sentient Sith Lord/wound in the Force, and may operate under different principles.
As I explained to Neph and Battlemaster both, the description of the Dark Reaper is treated as an answer to the fears of the ancient Sith as articulated by Chris Avellone regarding the nature of Nihilus's attack. The ancient Sith possessed knowledge of the technique but feared to use it because it inevitably sublimated their personalities. Enter the Dark Reaper, a weapon, which was constructed by the ancient Sith and unleashes a virtually identical attack: but without the risk of shattering one's personality.
More importantly, while I made room for the idea that the process differs, the effect is the same: the Force is removed.
Stealth Moose
If I took your skeptic approach, I'd be skeptical of Ulic's claim that it would work without restrictions, etc. especially given that Ulic failed to defend against a similar technique, the Wall of Light.
Ulic never claimed it would work without restriction.
Stealth Moose
Or I'd be skeptical of Dooku's claims on Sidious; on any source written by Sidious or in favor of him, etc. on the pretense that someone might be wrong. This is like ignoring doctor's orders and taking no medication because he could be wrong on a diagnosis.
If I may borrow your line:
SM
So in other words what you're doing?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think so. We discard the hyperbole in Tobin's testimony just like we discard Dooku's 'black hole' bullshit. That doesn't mean we should doubt his word that Nihilus pulled the Ravager from Malachor or the facts that Dooku rattles off on his relationship with Sidious or whatever else he says I can't remember.
I refer not to the manipulation of The Ravager, but the quotes that Zampano often used: "death of the Force!" and all that. Nihilus's retrieval of The Ravager is accepted, but one must remember the presence of Malachor V, a dark side nexus, that would enhance such powers.
srsly
Impressive descriptions of Kun's raw power and natural talent from a young age are slathered all over the comics.
In contrast, while young!Palpatine is powerful in the Force, Plagueis is more in awe of how advanced he is {in terms of naturally telepathic resistance, how his midi-chlorians concealed themselves from detection, etc.} than how much he is bristling with raw energy.
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the PC-exclusive shopkeeper on Yavin in Kotor, Exar Kun was so powerful that he made the ground 'tremble with his footsteps.' He was fellated even after death as well.But I don't think Exar is the most powerful personally. Most of his impressive feats come from his amulet.
I don't think Kun is the most powerful or skilled, but I believe an argument could be made that he is the most naturally gifted Sith Lord. I would be willing to see what Janus or someone else could cook up in that regard.
Clearly Sidious eclipses him by mastery and arguably raw power in the EU, where he becomes a dark side nexus. But much of that comes from channeling power well beyond what his body was conditioned to endure, which leads me to believe such power was not available to him naturally, but only after decades of training and study.
I'd love to reply in depth, but I don't care enoughI have to be someplace else now. I will reply to this though:
More importantly, while I made room for the idea that the process differs, the effect is the same: the Force is removed.
Right, but there's no reason to assume that because the end result is the same, the defense is necessarily the same. The means may potentially be different. One point I brought up is that use of this technique by a living being may be harder to or in some cases even impossible to defend against.
After all, if you can't breathe in a small closed area and if you are being choked by someone stronger than yourself both make you die by lack of oxygen. We don't assume that you can defend against the stronger chokehold by leaving the area, as you could with the closed space; the methods different in some way, and therefore the defense may alter. Additionally, you may be able to slip out of the chokehold but the aforementioned closed area is a coffin and you're SOL. Not all situations are identical.
It's still canon cluster**** how Ulic would know any such blocking techniques when he was barely a Sith scholar and the Krath never showed any ability to use such a device or Force drain, but whatever.