BTW the infamous 500 million development cost applies to the entire franchise over 10 years. Not this game alone. They could have waited another year and they should have waited. The game was rushed. No way around that and it had lots of conflict in development.
They should have waited to finish the 2 DLCs and added them to the retail release.
As it stands it does feel like a ripoff. Especially when 75% of the DLC uses assets that were already in the disc.
Originally posted by SmasandianThat's not what I said.
So basically your saying that people should wait 2 years to get content that they thought they would get at launch. For a game that is not free to play or early access but a full price release?And then say come back 2 years to get content you can get from Halo, Borderlands, Skyrim and etc.....which is crazy because all those games had the content when it was first launched.
To think that people should expect that content should be an evolutionary process is bullshit. If this was free to play, I could expect that but it was not. Activation sold the game for $69 (in Canada) and people should expect a good amount of quality content.
And the game did not cost a billion dollars. To think that it did is crazy.
I was saying that if you want all those things implemented to the degree you want them implemented you would probably have to wait an additional 2 possibly 4 years to get to get the game. By that time the game would have probably been cancelled due to development costs alone. I know the game did not cost a billion dollars I'm saying if you guys waited to get everything you wanted it would be.
The content that was released at launch time is just as much, in fact more, than other games have at launch time.
As to game development being an evolutionary process it really is. I mean you guys want all these great items from other franchises, but you're failing to take into account that most of the features you love about others games(And want Bungie to replicate) evolved over the course of multiple games as those developers learned and progressed.
Often times these developers have spent massive amounts of time fine tuning smaller distinct aspects of their games. Like Bethesda and Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Rockstar games with Grand Theft Auto, and the developers of Mass Effect, Borderlands 2 RNG system, Call of Duty, and many expansions of World of Warcraft.
You guys are essentially asking Bungie to do in one game at launch time what has taken other companies many years, multiple games/expansions, and tons of learning to do. People need to have realistic expectations. Does this game have flaws yes, but it still has plenty of great characteristics to go along with those flaws.
This game has large a multiplayer that many people find fun, it has a large world along the lines of Elder Scrolls, and it has lore enough to eventually get to Mass Effect levels of interaction. Does it do any individual one of those as well as the games they represent no. At this point and time though it shouldn't be expected from them either.
All I'm saying is this game will eventually get there but it needs time much like the franchises you guys keep quoting.
Originally posted by Zack FairWhen you say 75% of assets in the disc what are you referring to?
BTW the infamous 500 million development cost applies to the entire franchise over 10 years. Not this game alone. They could have waited another year and they should have waited. The game was rushed. No way around that and it had lots of conflict in development.They should have waited to finish the 2 DLCs and added them to the retail release.
As it stands it does feel like a ripoff. Especially when 75% of the DLC uses assets that were already in the disc.
Originally posted by Newjak
That's not what I said.I was saying that if you want all those things implemented to the degree you want them implemented you would probably have to wait an additional 2 possibly 4 years to get to get the game. By that time the game would have probably been cancelled due to development costs alone. I know the game did not cost a billion dollars I'm saying if you guys waited to get everything you wanted it would be.
The content that was released at launch time is just as much, in fact more, than other games have at launch time.
As to game development being an evolutionary process it really is. I mean you guys want all these great items from other franchises, but you're failing to take into account that most of the features you love about others games(And want Bungie to replicate) evolved over the course of multiple games as those developers learned and progressed.
Often times these developers have spent massive amounts of time fine tuning smaller distinct aspects of their games. Like Bethesda and Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Rockstar games with Grand Theft Auto, and the developers of Mass Effect, Borderlands 2 RNG system, Call of Duty, and many expansions of World of Warcraft.
You guys are essentially asking Bungie to do in one game at launch time what has taken other companies many years, multiple games/expansions, and tons of learning to do. People need to have realistic expectations. Does this game have flaws yes, but it still has plenty of great characteristics to go along with those flaws.
This game has large a multiplayer that many people find fun, it has a large world along the lines of Elder Scrolls, and it has lore enough to eventually get to Mass Effect levels of interaction. Does it do any individual one of those as well as the games they represent no. At this point and time though it shouldn't be expected from them either.
All I'm saying is this game will eventually get there but it needs time much like the franchises you guys keep quoting.
Your making it sound like Bungie is small bit developer who have aspirations of being a triple A developer.
That's complete crap. They have made multiple AAA titles and Destiny plays like it. Using your logic, because they made multiple shooters than Destiny should of had more content because well, they didn't have to worry about getting the gunplay right.
Borderlands was Gearbox first for the series and there wasn't any complaint that the content was not unique and plentiful. In fact, both companies would of had the same issues considering both developers created different games prior to Borderlands/Destiny. As well, I would think Gearbox would of had a harder time because Borderlands is vastly different game than Brother in Arms.
But in the end, Bungie is a premier developer. One of the reasons why Activision allowed them to spend a shitload of money creating a new IP.
Originally posted by SmasandianDid I say they were small time? I did not. I said they are taking unique items to them and a lot of them. Also I would like to point out that Bungie did make a well balanced first person shooter with Destiny. Most people understand the game play mechanics are great because yes that is something they are used to.
Your making it sound like Bungie is small bit developer who have aspirations of being a triple A developer.That's complete crap. They have made multiple AAA titles and Destiny plays like it. Using your logic, because they made multiple shooters than Destiny should of had more content because well, they didn't have to worry about getting the gunplay right.
Borderlands was Gearbox first for the series and there wasn't any complaint that the content was not unique and plentiful. In fact, both companies would of had the same issues considering both developers created different games prior to Borderlands/Destiny. As well, I would think Gearbox would of had a harder time because Borderlands is vastly different game than Brother in Arms.
But in the end, Bungie is a premier developer. One of the reasons why Activision allowed them to spend a shitload of money creating a new IP.
But they are still going to have growing pains. Just like gearbox with the first borderlands. I remember while the game had unique characters it had a lot of problems. When most people talk about the awesome rng system they are referring to the second one
Originally posted by Newjak
One thing I will not accept as a point is that this game was lacking content at launch time.
I can't agree to this. There are, literally, many free online games that have exponentially more content and depth than this game did at launch. How the hell do we end up with a generic FPS multiplayer system and a sub-20 hour main story in such a huge game?
Originally posted by Newjak
This game is going to be an evolutionary process. Things will get better over time but it had more content than most games at launch time. Especially for a first game in the series.
I'm okay with this answer. 🙂 I still see huge potential in a game like this. Bungie will hear the screams and lamentations of people like me and do better. I think Destiny 2 is going to be amazing...but I'm not buying it until about 2 weeks after release, lol.
Originally posted by Newjak
If they had waited an extra year and half to do everything you wanted. The game would have likely died from development costs being too high as the cost would have likely approached 1 billion and Activision would have cut the plug.
That's a high-level project management problem, not a development problem. To put it simply, they have immature project management in place...at least for Destiny's initial development. They gambled on huge upfront costs rather than a more mature approach to software development (this is usually what happens when you have arrogant management in place that are also ignorant of sound best practices). They banked on their brand name and an amazing PR Hype Machine to fund the rest of their overly-ambitious project. They delivered a well-under-par product out of the gate. But they definitely made enough money to continue (but, perhaps, not enough to make as much as they could have by delaying the release until Q3 2015, which is what they should have done).
Originally posted by Smasandian
To think that people should expect that content should be an evolutionary process is bullshit. If this was free to play, I could expect that but it was not.
Uh, yup. 👆
Originally posted by Zack Fair
The game has plenty of content. Problem was that it felt repetitive. And this becomes more of a problem because the game keeps forcing you to do the same thing over and over with the bounties.
Hmm. I think I can agree to this, somewhat. I think the content was lacking and the content that was there was unnecessarily repetitive.
Originally posted by Newjak
I mean you guys want all these great items from other franchises, but you're failing to take into account that most of the features you love about others games(And want Bungie to replicate) evolved over the course of multiple games as those developers learned and progressed.
Here's the problem with your logic: you think this game was made in a vacuum or as an island. It wasn't. Video game design/development is a very mature industry. You'd have a point if we didn't have anything that strongly resembles Destiny (perhaps a universe where software is never used for 3D gaming). But this is 2014 and FPS RPGs are a dime a dozen. Nothing needed to evolve from Bungie to put out a much better game. The concepts of what constitutes a great FPS RPG have been around for quite a while but they botched that, too. Props to Bungie for putting out amazing new engines...but f*ck Bungie for having pretty lame execution in the final product.
Originally posted by Newjak
Often times these developers have spent massive amounts of time fine tuning smaller distinct aspects of their games. Like Bethesda and Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Rockstar games with Grand Theft Auto, and the developers of Mass Effect, Borderlands 2 RNG system, Call of Duty, and many expansions of World of Warcraft.
It's a good thing you brought up Rockstar...because they seem to be able to do a shit ton more with $500 million than Bungie. 😄 I mean...wow, the sheer details GTV has in it is absurd. If even 1/20 of the attention to detail was put into Destiny, that was put into GTV, you'd hear me singing praises to Destiny.
Originally posted by Newjak
You guys are essentially asking Bungie to do in one game at launch time what has taken other companies many years, multiple games/expansions, and tons of learning to do. People need to have realistic expectations. Does this game have flaws yes, but it still has plenty of great characteristics to go along with those flaws.
Wait...you think Bungie is not experienced in putting out video games and has no product maturity? That's crazy. Halo, bro. HALO. And they are an Activision organization. There's nothing being done in a vacuum, here. Not at all. If anything, they have the best of the best FPS resources (which includes human assets) at their disposal.
Originally posted by Smasandian
Borderlands was Gearbox first for the series and there wasn't any complaint that the content was not unique and plentiful. In fact, both companies would of had the same issues considering both developers created different games prior to Borderlands/Destiny. As well, I would think Gearbox would of had a harder time because Borderlands is vastly different game than Brother in Arms.But in the end, Bungie is a premier developer. One of the reasons why Activision allowed them to spend a shitload of money creating a new IP.
Borderlands is an excellent example. Much better story, better RPG system, and a much better gun system. I still had lots of whiny complaints about Borderlands (such as clearing areas doesn't clear enemies and the fact that you can't attack or harm enemies so many levels above you but little shits can still harm you even when you're much higher level than they are).
I gave Borderlands a 7 out of 10. I gave Borderlands 2 a 8.5 out of 10 because they fixed some of the shit I hated, added more diversity to the RPG system in a good way, got better voice acting, made the classes more fun, and expanded on the story. Maaaaaaaaaaaan, Destiny could have been so much better. It makes me frowny face that this game turned out as it did. 🙁
I'd also point out that, compared to an Elder Scrolls game or Fallout or GTA, Destiny's open world is seriously lacking. There's little visual storytelling, nor are there clusters of NPCs dotting the world to give it character. The open world exists just to link different shooting arenas and is populated solely by bodies for you to shoot, for the most part.
I think the main issue with the game is that a lot of the problems with the game are pretty obvious with easy fixes that should have been in place at the game's launch. The unrewarding loot system could very easily be fixed, but I think they are afraid of making the loot system too rewarding because Bungie is overly reliant on the carrot on a stick method of keeping people playing, because their actual content isn't good enough to keep people playing.
Also there is no excuse for the embarrassing quality of the narrative. Hiring a semi competent writer should not have been that difficult. I imagine any blooming author could write a better story than what was in the game. I suspect they simply didn't put effort into the story, or the more cynical viewpoint - they gutted aspects of the story for the sake of having them in paid DLC.
Another issue with the "evolutionary design" thought process is that in order for that to work out we have to pay for multiple packs of DLC, presumably adding up to maybe $100 beyond the initial $60 that the game costs. If these DLC's were free then evolutionary design would be fine, but expecting people to pay upwards of $150 to get a good experience is just not reasonable. People expect a complete product at launch. And a lot of people felt the product they got was not only bad, but no complete.
Another thing is I think a lot of this is going to come down to what you consider "content". Some people feel the game has a lot of content, based on the fact that you can put a lot of hours into the game. However, much of that time is spent replaying levels over and over. Levels that aren't particularly well designed. The thing is, you can play any game like that, play missions over and over and put many hours into the game, it's not something unique to Destiny. It's just that Destiny is designed around offering rewards for doing that. How long does it take to complete every mission in the game? It takes somewhere between 20-30 hours. So to actually play all the content would take around 30 hours, give or take.
It doesn't help they could of hired three people to create adequate side missions instead of relying on "go to cave and explore it", or "kill 5 guys". I don't understand how a company like Bioware/Gearbox can create interesting side missions while Bungie cannot. I have no problem with grinding sidequests but at least have other missions that complement them.
They spent so much time creating the stupid Grimoire when they could of spent that time putting that information in the game through side missions. They spent a crazy amount of time creating unique areas (and the areas are fantastic) but they could of filled with back story on how the world ended up like it did.
It's just a ****ing waste of a interesting universe and gunplay.
Yep.
Nemebro mentions another thing that was a huge missed opportunity, the world lacking any character. He puts it very well, the world is indeed populated with things for you to shoot at and little more.
Having NPC's wandering the landscape, giving unique quests, would have gone a long way towards making the world feel more alive.
It would have been cool if you came across a group of NPC guardians fighting against one of the enemies, and you get a quest to help them. Things like that are a very basic and integral part of RPG's because it makes the world feel lived in and helps suck you into the world, and can offer good backstory as well.
Originally posted by SmasandianFirst of all I do not think this game is shit. I think it has too many good qualities like music, gameplay, and fun factor with friends. So don't act like I am attempting to make excuses for a turd.
Your making it sound like their small time."You guys can't have everything, they to need to learn how to make this game so who cares if it's shit"
All I've said what I will continue to say is that people make it sound like large scale enterprise development is easy. Speaking from personal experience it is not.
Bungie is not small time but that doesn't matter. They still are venturing into new territory for them with this cross genre game.
To the comment that you guys can't have everything that is true. People here are acting like this game should be 5 full different games in one go. People want the open world interaction of Skyrim, mixed with the character development of Mass Effect, mixed with the RPG/MMO elements of WoW, plus the large scale story telling of Bioshock, mixed with the FPS RPG elements of Fallout/Borderlands, mixed with the Multiplayer elements of Call of Duty/Battlefield/Halo. And everyone wants them perfect or near perfect from the get go.
Also people take no account of how these different genres need to interact into one functioning game.
It drives me crazy when you guys say these things are easy fixes cause their not. Especially when have so many aspects you are juggling together.
Also when people are comparing Destiny to these games they are often comparing them to the final versions of these games and forgetting the evolutionary process all of these series went through.
I will take Mass Effect as an example. People keep wanting the NPCs, character interaction, and open worldness from this game but when they are saying this they are speaking more about Mass Effect 3. Know how I know this because if people sat down and actually thought about Mass Effect 1 they wouldn't be thinking this way. Cause for all the good aspects of that game the world exploring was extremely repetitive as were side quests/missions. Also the character interaction while not crude was definitely was definitely more generic and needed improvements to make it more dynamic.
Which is what happened with Mass Effect 2 which than also made improvements going into Mass Effect 3. Judging from your comments though Mass Effect 3 should have been a simple game to create and should have been what Mass Effect 1 was. Like I said there is an evolutionary process when trying new things in games for a development team and continually improving them.
I could also do the same thing for the Elder Scrolls series. Does anyone remember Morrowind. Remember how you were talking about NPCs making the world more alive in a richly populated world. Well Morrowind was a fun game but it was anything but richly populated. The NPCS were sparse the landscapes were bland and it too could get repetitive. Of course Oblivion was much better and Skyrim blew both of them out of the water but it definitely a one game iteration that got that project to Skyrim levels. I could also point out that the developers of the Elder Scrolls series didn't have to worry about balancing the game for online play or code for multiple users doing the same missions and interacting with the same places.
And I could keep going on with GTA, Fallout, Halo, Borderlands, World of Warcraft.
So what we ended up with in a game was 5 partial games rolled into one. Just because you only play certain aspects of the game or don't like other aspects or even because the aspects you do like could be done better doesn't eliminate Bungie is trying to blend a ton of different play experiences into one game and have done so. This is why I say this game is a just as full of content as any other game at launch time. Just because you don't like all of it or choose not to play all of it doesn't make not true.
I would also like to point out there have been a lot of great suggestions in here that I agree with. Anyone who says they are easy fixes though doesn't know what they are talking about. Most these fixes require either serious redesign or serious thinking out especially since Bungie has been having to release multiple ongoing patches. And things like the Story definitely feel short and massive improvements. Acting like it just takes an easy fix is not true though. You can't just hire o n3 more developers and make it work. It infuriates me to hear that kind of talk because I know what Bungie is going through being a large scale enterprise developer myself.
It also infuriates me that people are willing to just blast this game without looking at the whole picture. This game has flaws(which are being continuously worked on) it also has good qualities. I just think people need more perspective on what they are asking out of this game. Right or wrong it is going to take, even a mature development company, time to get everything pristine. Until than you have every right to not like this game and wait until it reaches the point you want but don't act like this game is wasted potential or that it needed everything you wanted on launch day. That expectation simply is wrong with such a large undertaking as Bungie tried to do mixing in so many genres. It did a lot of things right though, especially for a first launch in a series that was trying to do so much in one go.
Also STALKER the first one while critically acclaimed still had plenty of issues to fix such as it's gameplay mechanics(something Destiny does not have a problem with) and people complained the story didn't tell enough. Also that even after multiple patches the game still had bug problem happening often enough. I will add that I've only watched people play the game but those were common complaints from what I heard. So take this last comment with a grain of salt
The first Mass Effect had 40 hours of content, most of it was good. Even planet hopping and looking for resources brought in sidequests that were more interesting than "explore the same cave" in Destiny.
It also had a full, incredible story with branching paths, multiple villains, decisions you needed to make and your character interaction was incredible. Yes, Mass Effect 2 did a lot of things better but that's in hindsight. At the time, Mass Effect was incredible. Most of the complaints are after people have played the other two. I would also say most people prefer the first Mass Effect over Mass Effect 3. But the point is that the game was complete when released. Aside from bug fixes, nothing changed. Destiny was shit at launch and while Bungie probably fixed a few things, the game still has a lack of content. If it wasn't people who loved to grind and the gunplay so stellar, this game would be empty as shit.
In further continue the comparison with Mass Effect, I would actually say that Bioware had a much harder task in creating the game than Bungie did because it involved third person shooting. That is something Bioware has never done while Destiny is Halo with loot drops. Oh, I forgot, they add a MMO lite hub system......
Originally posted by SmasandianLike I said Mass Effect 1 had good things but the exploration and resource gathering was definitely repetitive and was a complaint I heard often. The branching paths were pretty generic yeah they could have some interesting effects but it definitely wasn't as detailed as it was in the next 2 games. Mass Effect also didn't have to worry about Multiplayer and balancing that mechanic with everything.
The first Mass Effect had 40 hours of content, most of it was good. Even planet hopping and looking for resources brought in sidequests that were more interesting than "explore the same cave" in Destiny.It also had a full, incredible story with branching paths, multiple villains, decisions you needed to make and your character interaction was incredible. Yes, Mass Effect 2 did a lot of things better but that's in hindsight. At the time, Mass Effect was incredible. Most of the complaints are after people have played the other two. I would also say most people prefer the first Mass Effect over Mass Effect 3. But the point is that the game was complete when released. Aside from bug fixes, nothing changed. Destiny was shit at launch and while Bungie probably fixed a few things, the game still has a lack of content. If it wasn't people who loved to grind and the gunplay so stellar, this game would be empty as shit.
In further continue the comparison with Mass Effect, I would actually say that Bioware had a much harder task in creating the game than Bungie did because it involved third person shooting. That is something Bioware has never done while Destiny is Halo with loot drops. Oh, I forgot, they add a MMO lite hub system......
That MMO lite hub still needs to be coded and fine tuned and it is not a small undertaking to add it to a game.
I will also say trying to blend multiple games into one is much harder than creating one genre of game because you have to deal with so many different design elements than what Bioware had to deal with.
I would also like to say people did love Mass Effect. There are plenty of people that love or enjoy Destiny.
I also have no problem with people not liking this game. My only problem is people trying to say all these suggestions are easy implementations or there should have been a ton more stuff in this game at launch. That stuff based on what I know first hand about Enterprise development as well as game development is just not easy to do nor is it simple to do especially when trying to merge so many different elements into one. Thinking otherwise is incorrect.
Interesting comparison between Mass Effect and Destiny. Very opposite problems in each game. Where as Destiny has very good core gameplay mechanics (shooting) and struggles with all the peripheral elements (story, loot mechanics, mission design, characters, world lore communication) Mass Effect had problematic and sloppy core gameplay and really shined with the peripheral elements - outstanding characters, narrative and a deep lore filled world.
Newjack, I don't really agree that the game is trying to do that many new things. It's essentially Phantasy Star Online in First Person mode and guns. The structure is very similar in regards to how you go to planets, and having a central hub, and being an MMO but not really an MMO.
You compare it to the first incarnation of a lot of games that were much more innovative than Destiny, the thing is most of those games came out several years ago, sometimes over a decade, where as Destiny has the benefit of coming out in 2014 with all sorts of other games that the developers could look to that had already done what they wanted to do. Vaguely blending elements that other games already do, and doing them worse than those other games, isn't really innovation. Let's look at WoW. That game was far more innovative upon its release, it immediately evolved the entire MMO genre simply by making it accessible, it basically created the quest structure that all MMO's use now. Destiny in its current form is more convoluted and confusing than WoW was upon its initial release. Also, just objectively speaking, WoW had much much more content than Destiny. There was simply more to do. And for its time the content was better when compared to what else was out at the time.
You mention people have unreasonable expectations, that would be fair if it weren't bungie's own fault for selling this game as some end all be all blend of the best of all these other genres. They said things like they think the story would stand with LotR's and Star Wars as one of the great creative universes, or something like that, which is of course absurd when you look at how little narrative and backstory there actually is in the game itself. It's really their own fault for facilitating such high expectations in the first place. They oversold it and then when it didn't deliver they acted like it's strange that people had these kind of expectations.
And I'm sure you're right, Destiny will get better as time goes on. It will evolve. In a year from now it may be a very very good game with all the stuff people want. That would be fine if people didn't have to spend money on DLC in order for it to get there.