ROTS Yoda vs. Darth Bane

Originally posted by ares834
Not everything. The perspective changes shorlty afterwards to Mace's.

Oh good, so its still non-canon then.

Originally posted by ares834
The only reason though he could have trampled her though was because she failed to kill him due to his orbalisks. That was my point. The fact that Raskta can not only defelect Bane's attack but pull of six of her own, presumibly three with each lightsaber, shortly afterwards in the time it takes to charge at her pretty much shows that Raskta's speed is in fact superior to Bane's.

And truthfully, I wouldn't say Sidious's blitzed Kit Fisto but rather owned him in mere seconds as Fisto was able to react; the other two weren't able to.

Except that we know that this not the case as afterwards Bane fights her and is able to react to and counter her attacks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that we know that this not the case as afterwards Bane fights her and is able to react to and counter her attacks.

?

Just because Bane can react and counter her attacks doesn't show that he is faster or even the same speed.

How so?

Really? Because speed isn't the only deciding factor. Precog, strength, and technique all play a role in lightsaber fights.

Precognition doesn't matter if you can't actually move your lightsaber in time to block or dodge an attack. If anything, I would say that countering someones attacks is probably the best way to show that you're as fast as someone.

Sure. But depending on how advanced you're precog is will give you a diffrent amount of time to block. If you're precog is suitably advanced you theoritically will know where the next attack is coming from before it even begins and will then be able to lightsaber into position in time even if slower.

Also being able to counter an opponent's attack does not require you to be as fast as you're opponent. With such logic Farfalla is as fast as Bane who in turn is as fast as Rastka. Afterall, the movement required to block an opponents attack is usually less than the attack itself. Furthermore, in Bane's case he only had to really block his head.

But when defend you have less z-distance to cover than your opoennet as your shield is a lot closer to your body than your opooenent;s sword. You only have to make x and y movement to block whereas opponent has to make x,y and z mocements,. So slower opponent can defend against attacks of faster opponent.

Neph
Lucas approved it for the novel, which is still a lower form of canon than the movie. What happens in the novel cannot override what happens in the movie. Just because he allowed it to be in the novel does not make it canon.

Not true.
Lucas has retconned the film using ostensibly lower canon material. One such example is in an episode of TCW called "Cat and Mouse" concerning the use of cloaking devices on small ships. When backed by Lucas, T-canon can trump G-canon.

Hence my point. Obviously Anakin wasn't present for the duel between Windu and Sidious, but that doesn't require that the speed at which Windu was moving be removed from the equation. When dealing with elements that heavily involve Lucas, careful pruning is essential.

Except that the novel was released on April 2nd 2005 while the movie was released on May 15th 2005.

So in fact the movie retcons the novel. 😉

Again, Lucas line-edited the novelization. Anakin's presence is how the reader is made aware of Mace's speed but Anakin's presence is not what determines the speed. In other words, the fact that Anakin was not present does not require that the description of Mace's speed be eliminated.

Yes, he line-read the novelisation. The novel is not the true account of what happened. Not only is it a lower form of canon and a part of the EU that Lucas has professed apathy towards and based off of an early draft of the script, but there are plenty of scenes that contradict the movie that he left in. Anakin being in the room is just one of them. Consistency between the two texts is already gone to shit, even though Lucas line-read the book. He doesn't give a shit about consistency between the two texts.

Yes it does. Look at the line:

'there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.'

Seemed to whom? Anakin. The fact that from Anakin's perspective there seemed to be dozens of swords is completely non-canon. You might as well try to argue that the reason for Mace disarming Sidious is still valid, even though that that contradicts the movie as well.

That Lucas line-edited the novel personally contradicts the idea that he "doesn't give a shit about it." While his involvement with the EU is understated by some, he's never been known to apply that particularly high level of detail to any other project, not even the vaunted Darth Plagueis.

Your example doesn't follow. Anakin's presence has no bearing on Windu's speed. Or to put it another way, say I'm in the forest and hear a tree fall over. Does that mean the tree didn't or wouldn't have fallen had I not been there? Anakin's role is as a witness; I agree with you that Anakin clearly wasn't there, but whether or not Anakin was there has no bearing on how fast Windu was swinging his blade in combat.

Neph
You might as well try to argue that the reason for Mace disarming Sidious is still valid, even though that that contradicts the movie as well.

Absolutely not. If you're referring to the fear that Windu exploited to disarm Palpatine that Sidious later revealed was Anakin's, the situation is entirely different. In the case of Windu's speed, Anakin is a witness. In the case of the novel's account of the disarmament, he is a participant, meaning his presence is necessary: otherwise, there wouldn't be the fear that Windu exploited.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
Again, Lucas line-edited the novelization. Anakin's presence is how the reader is made aware of Mace's speed but Anakin's presence is not what determines the speed. In other words, the fact that Anakin was not present does not require that the description of Mace's speed be eliminated.

👆

Exactly what I was trying to say. Sure Anakin wasn't there, but his presence had no bearing on Windu's speed.

That doesn't change the fact that the entire scene blatantly contradicts the movie and Lucas allowed it! Doesn't that show how concerned with consistency between the two texts he is? If he really cared about the canonicity of the novel then why would he render parts of it non-canon with a script that he wrote, while line-reading through the book?

It has everything to do with the description of Windu's speed, which is what we're talking about. The quote in quesion is not an omniscient narration, it is Anakin's perception of Windu as he is fighting. We aren't given Windu's actual speed, we are only given Anakin's description of his speed. It directly contradicts the movie and as per forum rules is therefore non-canon.

Again, Anakin's presence is how the reader is made aware of Windu's speed. Anakin's presence is not what determines the speed. Therefore Anakin can be absent and Windu still be moving at such speeds unless his presence is somehow augmenting Windu's reflexes, which it is not known to be.

And again, the reader is not aware of Windu's speed. We are only aware of Anakin's perception of his speed.

wutno
Anakin's thoughts constitute an observation. What he is observing doesn't change simply because he's not there to observe it anymore than the absence of witnesses doesn't change the fact that a falling tree still falls and still makes noise. Savvy?

His observation is non-canon. If an observation is non-canon then it cannot be used to identify what is being observed. End of story.

Anakin's presence is non-canon. What he observed must endure unless contradicted by other, greater source material, given Lucas's personal approval. Finis.

And what did he observe? That 'there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once?' That description is non-canon. It is based off of something that does not exist.