ROTS Yoda vs. Darth Bane

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because its told from Anakin's perspective as he watches the fight. Which contradicts the movie because Anakin doesn't arive until after the fight is over. Theres no way that Anakin could see that Mace's blade was moving that fast.

I don't buy that. Sure, Anakin was not present at the fight, but that doesn't mean we should throw out the entire passage IMO.

As for Raskta, of course she could react to him, I've never said that she couldn't. But that she only gets out of his way at the last moment suggests to me that were it not for the BM, she would have bee in the same position as Farfalla.

Her leaping aside may have been assisted but that was undoubtedly due to him surviving her attack rather than his speed. As the text specifically indicates "instead of toppling, the big man kept coming".

Originally posted by ares834
I don't buy that. Sure, Anakin was not present at the fight, but that doesn't mean we should throw out the entire passage IMO.

You don't think the fact that its literally impossible for that narration to have occured invalidates it?

Originally posted by ares834
Her leaping aside may have been assisted but that was undoubtedly due to him surviving her attack rather than his speed. As the text specifically indicates "instead of toppling, the big man kept coming".

What was due to him surviving? Leaping out of the way? That doesn't factor into the discussion. She would have had to get out of the way even if their speed was equal. Its that she only did so at the last moment that suggests to me that speed was a factor, not got out of his way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You don't think the fact that its literally impossible for that narration to have occured invalidates it?

Actually, no. It's the same way I view Jedi Twilight's opening. Sure it shouldn't be happening because Even Piell is dead, however, rather than throwing it all out I believe it to simply be a diffrent Jedi Master.

What was due to him surviving? Leaping out of the way? That doesn't factor into the discussion. She would have had to get out of the way even if their speed was equal. Its that she only did so at the last moment that suggests to me that speed was a factor, not got out of his way.

Speed is a factor, I'm not saying it isn't but rather that it's not the biggst factor. Him surviving Raskta's inital flurry and not toppling over is.

You know, I still haven't found anythign suggesting Bane could take Yoda down. Don't get me wrong, Bane is actually my favorited Sith Lord, he just so happens to be a badass, but I don't see him beating Yoda. If I could find that thread with the debate about his speed, then I would double check it. If it convinced me, I would concede. However, you really haven't said much that proves Bane is faster than Yoda.
Sure, you brought up some points involving his physical attributes, but again, when fighting, Yoda leaps about. He parries while in midair, so if one of Bane's blows did connect, it wouldn't send him flying like you seem to think.

All in all, I see Yoda winning through a lucky hit.

Originally posted by ares834
Actually, no. It's the same way I view Jedi Twilight's opening. Sure it shouldn't be happening because Even Piell is dead, however, rather than throwing it all out I believe it to simply be a diffrent Jedi Master.

Thats nice. However, as per the rules of the forum, in cases where something contradicts a higher form of canon, its rendered non-canon.

Originally posted by ares834
Speed is a factor, I'm not saying it isn't but rather that it's not the biggst factor. Him surviving Raskta's inital flurry and not toppling over is.

Thats simply your interpretation. I disagree with it and still see that scene as proof for Bane's speed.

Originally posted by Pwned
You know, I still haven't found anythign suggesting Bane could take Yoda down. Don't get me wrong, Bane is actually my favorited Sith Lord, he just so happens to be a badass, but I don't see him beating Yoda. If I could find that thread with the debate about his speed, then I would double check it. If it convinced me, I would concede. However, you really haven't said much that proves Bane is faster than Yoda.
Sure, you brought up some points involving his physical attributes, but again, when fighting, Yoda leaps about. He parries while in midair, so if one of Bane's blows did connect, it wouldn't send him flying like you seem to think.

All in all, I see Yoda winning through a lucky hit.

Well then you're not looking hard enough. I never said that Bane was faster than Yoda, I said that his speed is near enough to Yoda's that he would be able to fight him effectively. In my opinion they are comparable in terms of speed.

That isn't how parrying works. Without anything to brace himself on, Yoda can't redirect Bane's blade effectively, which is what a parry does. When someone swings at you, you hit the side to move it off course and make it miss, something that Yoda can't do while in midair. If Bane swings his lightsaber at him, how can Yoda avoid it?

I wasn't aware luck was a factor in these threads.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats nice. However, as per the rules of the forum, in cases where something contradicts a higher form of canon, its rendered non-canon.

The part that's contradicted is, yes. So Anakin isn't there. However, that doesn't contradict Mace appearing to have dozens of

Thats simply your interpretation. I disagree with it and still see that scene as proof for Bane's speed.

Yet, Raskta not only blocked Bane's blow but unleashed a flurry of blows on him... If anything, Raskta was the one who blitzed Bane.

I never said that Bane was faster than Yoda, I said that his speed is near enough to Yoda's that he would be able to fight him effectively. In my opinion they are comparable in terms of speed.

I agree. It's going to be a damn good fight.

Redirecting of force only requires a net force to be applied in a different direction. If Bane's saber is going down, Yoda can strike it to make it up down and left.
If Yoda couldn't put any force behind his strikes in mid air, then there wouldn't be any point in him fighting with a saber.

Lucas line-edited ROTS personally and has declared the prequels to be the golden age of Jedi combat. In The Making of Revenge of the Sith, he concludes that one has to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, despite the fact that both Obi-Wan and Anakin visibly move at higher speeds and with greater ferocity than Mace during their duel on Mustafar: which is to say that they remain inferior duelists though they appear to be superior ones. Lastly, Leland Chee explained on the now-defunct Holocron thread that there is no contradiction between the speeds depicted in the EU and those in the films. Clearly whatever discrepancy exists is because of Lucas's artistic vision and the technological demands at the time, not because movie!characters are slow, which is a truth reiterated by the fact that Darth Plagueis, reviewed in part by Lucas and then by his lieutenant, Howard Hoffman, depicts Plagueis and Sidious moving at superhuman speeds that largely defy what we see in the films.

That's not why Neph says it's contradicted though. He pointed out that the narriation from the excerpt I posted is from Anakin's POV yet in the actual movie he isn't present for that portion of the fight.

I know, I was just beefing up your defense as a preemptive strike against inevitable backlash.

Neph is right to question the scene given Anakin's absence, but because Lucas line-edited and approved its inclusion in the novelization, we must delicately prune contradictions that exist between text and film rather than eliminate entire passages and all their implications wholesale. If it were an average book with minimal or zero Lucas involvement, I may be inclined to agree with Neph.

Ares, don't interact with socks. Just ignore him and he'll go away. awermm

Not when I'm this bored and lazy. 😬

Ok then just ignore the arguements he's feeding you. They are poopy lies and would be really irritating to respond to.

😬

Shut up! You are a big stoopid doodoo head!

vin

Originally posted by ares834
I agree. It's going to be a damn good fight.

I disargee. Speed is onyl advantage Yoda has. If Bane really is almost as fast as Yoda which I didn;t was aware of (i thought yoda was much faster) than Bane should win quite easily, maybe even without orbalisks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shut up! You are a big stoopid doodoo head!

Originally posted by ares834
The part that's contradicted is, yes. So Anakin isn't there. However, that doesn't contradict Mace appearing to have dozens of

Everything in that scene is from Anakin's perspective. Its from Anakin's perspective that Mace appears to be wielding dozens of lightsabers. Thus, that perspective is rendered non-canon along with Anakin's placement in that scene.

Originally posted by ares834
Yet, Raskta not only blocked Bane's blow but unleashed a flurry of blows on him... If anything, Raskta was the one who blitzed Bane.

Raskta uses Jar'Kai and two lightsabers, so it was really only half as many as it seemed. Also remember that when Sidious blitzed the Jedi a few of his blows were blocked. Bane was focussed on trampling her and would have succeeded without the BM.

Originally posted by Pwned
Redirecting of force only requires a net force to be applied in a different direction. If Bane's saber is going down, Yoda can strike it to make it up down and left.
If Yoda couldn't put any force behind his strikes in mid air, then there wouldn't be any point in him fighting with a saber.

Not nearly as effectively as he could if he was properly ancoured and could brace himself on the ground, especially considering Bane's already considerable strength.

A lightsaber doesn't require much force to cut someone. The blade cuts with minimal resistence.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
I know, I was just beefing up your defense as a preemptive strike against inevitable backlash.

Neph is right to question the scene given Anakin's absence, but because Lucas line-edited and approved its inclusion in the novelization, we must delicately prune contradictions that exist between text and film rather than eliminate entire passages and all their implications wholesale. If it were an average book with minimal or zero Lucas involvement, I may be inclined to agree with Neph.

Lucas approved it for the novel, which is still a lower form of canon than the movie. What happens in the novel cannot override what happens in the movie. Just because he allowed it to be in the novel does not make it canon.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
Neph is right to question the scene given Anakin's absence, but because Lucas line-edited and approved its inclusion in the novelization, we must delicately prune contradictions that exist between text and film rather than eliminate entire passages and all their implications wholesale. If it were an average book with minimal or zero Lucas involvement, I may be inclined to agree with Neph.

That tends to be my view. But I tedn to do it with books that weren't line edited by Lucas as well. But his line-editing certainly helps!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Everything in that scene is from Anakin's perspective. Its from Anakin's perspective that Mace appears to be wielding dozens of lightsabers. Thus, that perspective is rendered non-canon along with Anakin's placement in that scene.

Not everything. The perspective changes shorlty afterwards to Mace's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Raskta uses Jar'Kai and two lightsabers, so it was really only half as many as it seemed. Also remember that when Sidious blitzed the Jedi a few of his blows were blocked. Bane was focussed on trampling her and would have succeeded without the BM.

The only reason though he could have trampled her though was because she failed to kill him due to his orbalisks. That was my point. The fact that Raskta can not only defelect Bane's attack but pull of six of her own, presumibly three with each lightsaber, shortly afterwards in the time it takes to charge at her pretty much shows that Raskta's speed is in fact superior to Bane's.

And truthfully, I wouldn't say Sidious's blitzed Kit Fisto but rather owned him in mere seconds as Fisto was able to react; the other two weren't able to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lucas approved it for the novel, which is still a lower form of canon than the movie. What happens in the novel cannot override what happens in the movie. Just because he allowed it to be in the novel does not make it canon.

The movie contradicts Anakin being at the scene. However, it doesn't contradict the notion that the two are fighting at incredible speeds. And the point of the "dozens of swords" is that Mace and Sidious are fighting really fast.