Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Any style that emphasizes dueling with one-hand and using fanciful twirls is going to be inherently vulnerable against styles that utilize brute force, like Djem/So.

It doesn't take an official source to recognize that, it's common sense.

That being said, we see Dooku using a lot of two-handed grip techniques when fighting Anakin in RotS, so it stands to reason that there's more to Makashi than the one-handed gurlyman twirls.

Considering it's the peak of lightsaber fighting during Sith versus Jedi battles for millennia, I'd say so.

You say a lot of things, Crazy Old Maurice.

Just stay off my lawn, kid. Go listen to your raps and shoot all the jobs.

Originally posted by ares834
If Vaapad is used properly one shouldn't fall to the dark side. As, according to Windu, with Vaapad one skirts the edge of the dark side. If you don't have the proper discipline and control than you can easily fall. Meanwhile, Juyo actively uses the dark side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, there are many Jedi that practiced Juyo and even were council members.

Not many. The form is, after all, pretty much banned by the time of the movies and only the most powerful Jedi are shown to know it's techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's more like you get emotional during a sparring and give out occasional roars but at the same time you are not really pissed off about anything. You can simply put passion in your fighting and strike with full passion, which is still emotional but not angry.

According to Path of the Jedi, it doesn't merely require passion and excitement but also rage.

And Darth Bane claims to use it fully one most also rely on their fear, fury, and hatred. And this doesn't appear to be just normal "Sith speak" as he never claims these are required to embrace when utilizing the other "Sith forms".

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Windu himself was practitioner of Juyo before creating Vaapad. While Juyo is said to be "controversial among order", Vaapad brings user "perilously close to darkside", which in my opinion is far worse.

According to Path of the Jedi and Book of Sith, Juyo doesn't merely bring the user close to the dark side but they actively use it!

Originally posted by ares834
According to Path of the Jedi and Book of Sith, Juyo doesn't merely bring the user close to the dark side but they actively use it!

I've seen nothing to indicate that they use it to that extant. According to Mace, Vaapad just scratches the surface or as he calls it the "penumbra of the dark side." Furthermore, I can't recall anything stating that it requires an emotion as dark as rage.

Originally posted by ares834
I've seen nothing to indicate that they use it to that extant. According to Mace, Vaapad just scratches the surface or as he calls it the "penumbra of the dark side." Furthermore, I can't recall anything stating that it requires an emotion as dark as rage.

Vaapad does draw on the users darkside. Its why Windu only approved teaching it to so few, the risk of falling to the darkside is very great. But I'm sure that he describes Vaapad as allowing him to tap into his own darkness and get angry without actually falling.

By the way. Anakin was getting Angry without falling as well as killing. During fights with Dooku he looked to me like perfect example of Juyo practitioner.

I'm not saying it doesn't use the dark side, after all it does. But it doesn't seem to use the darker emotions like fear, anger, and hatred. Rather it uses Mace's emotions like excitement and his desire for victory. If you use Vaapad properly these emotions won't be able to affect you as seen with Windu. But using it improperly it can.

"And he (Sora Bulq) did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him."

Originally posted by Board Walker
Makashi uses some elements of fencing, does it mean it replicates fencing? No hardly at all.

According to Nick yes it dose.

It borrows the concept of using parry and footwork, so does every other form of combat in existence. Fencing isn't a form of combat so much as it is a form of sport.

None of the other forms havw the same amount of footwork which is key in makashi ans most at least defend head on for mostly.

Makashi has no inherent advantage against Sorseru, nor does any other style have any inherent advantage against another style.

Yes it does, styles make fights. Makashi is the most technical form of them allk and doesn;t use as much physical energy so the soreasu strategy of tiring opponent out is nearly useukless. Soresu is designed to weather the storm, it can not offer up an adequatew defence ot skillfull fencing. it will get outfenced by makashi 9 times out of ten.

Soresu won;t be nearly as effective against Makahsi as it would the Djem So's, Ataru's and Vapaaads. Because when you face makashi you enter a fencing match and you will lose every time unlkess you physically overwhelm the user, and because soresu's gimick becomes useless when opponent does not rely too much on physical energy in the way they fights.

It all depends on what the person trains for, if the person uses Niman and trains just as extensively in blade to blade combat as a makashi user, the makashi user wont have any advantage over him in regards to saber vs saber.

Nonsence some forms are just plain better than others, especiaslly in their particular matchup and this is case. Same person with same skills and everything spends same time learnign borh forms, the makashi guy wins every time.

It is the same in MMA, no form of fighting is superior to another, it all comes down to the individual's skill, style, and physical abilities. [/B]

Not true, as Joe TRpgan would say, "styles make fights." Look at recent matchup with Frank Mir and J2S. Both very deadly fighters but in this case striking + takedown defence will beat submission specialist every time. Same with Jon Jones and people with long reach, any decent boxer or karate master who has good sense of distancing will deal with it far better than a kickboxer or muaythai practitioner and you see it in jon jones opponents where machida actually gave him good fight in the standup despite massive reach disadvantage, whereas people like shogun rashad and rampage who are also all great stand up guys got destroyed because they do not use striking styles with good distancing princisples.

Yes it does, styles make fights. Makashi is the most technical form of them allk and doesn;t use as much physical energy so the soreasu strategy of tiring opponent out is nearly useukless. Soresu is designed to weather the storm, it can not offer up an adequatew defence ot skillfull fencing. it will get outfenced by makashi 9 times out of ten.

Soresu won;t be nearly as effective against Makahsi as it would the Djem So's, Ataru's and Vapaaads. Because when you face makashi you enter a fencing match and you will lose every time unlkess you physically overwhelm the user, and because soresu's gimick becomes useless when opponent does not rely too much on physical energy in the way they fights.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, it doesn't. The fighters make the fight, not styles. Whatever your style is you can learn to counter anything with it. There is a saying: "There is no best martial art". And if Dooku loses to grabbing technique, it doesn't make his style weak against Form V, it means that he lacks in defense against grabbing techniques.

This right here, when it comes to combat style does not make the fight. It the individuals skill, intelligence, and physical abilities. No style is superior to any other style, it is all about the individual, this is seen repeatedly in real mixed martial arts fights.

Makashi has no inherent advantage over any other style. Why is it good versus other sabers? Perhaps because the user focuses purely on fighting other sabers. Now if a niman user spent the same amount of time practicing and training for purely saber versus saber, neither he nor the makashi would have advantage over one another in terms of style. It would come down to physical speed, strength, and intelligence.

As for Juyo Versus Vaapad, Vaapad does NOT use the darkside in the manner Juyo does. Juyo practitioners completely submerge themselves in the darkside, they meld with FEAR, HATRED, JEALOUSY, PAIN, and so forth. They quite simply become one with them.

Vaapad users attempt to channel the very edges of the darkness within them and use it as a driving force to power them. They never submerge themselves fully in the darkside, they as Mace said only skirt the very edge of it to draw power, while at the same time still channeling the light side of the force.

Vaapad and Juyo are entirely different, Vaapad attempts to use both Light and dark side energies simultaneously but keeping them seperate from one another.

While Juyo completely is 100% dark side submergence, does it mean just being all angry and shouting? No not at all, as Bane said it is entirely different from any other form of sith style. The user must actively be able to channel and meld with Fear, Hatred, Pain, Jealousy, this is not some thing easy to do nor can any sith do this.

By your own admission certain styles imploy specific metaphysical traits that for all intents and purposes make them superior to other forms that lack those properties. Of course a user who is able to both draw from the darkside as well as channel inner darkness into a weapon of the light enjoys a certain advantage over opponents who do not. It is because of this that Vaapad can be considered a superior form and most definitely the deadliest. Does that mean that a Vaapad user will ALWAYS defeat say a Shi Cho user? Not necessarily. However, between warriors of a reasonably similar combat prowess, the Vaapad user should come out the victor save for certain variables. The form in and of itself, with all its metaphysical Force related properties, is indeed superior.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
By your own admission certain styles imploy specific metaphysical traits that for all intents and purposes make them superior to other forms that lack those properties. Of course a user who is able to both draw from the darkside as well as channel inner darkness into a weapon of the light enjoys a certain advantage over opponents who do not. It is because of this that Vaapad can be considered a superior form and most definitely the deadliest. Does that mean that a Vaapad user will ALWAYS defeat say a Shi Cho user? Not necessarily. However, between warriors of a reasonably similar combat prowess, the Vaapad user should come out the victor save for certain variables. The form in and of itself, with all its metaphysical Force related properties, is indeed superior.

Using both Light and Dark has never shown to be an inherent advantage versus using purely dark or purely light. IE Revan Versus Sith Emperor.

Vaapad is entirely different from Juyo, in that it is made so the practitioner does not fall to the dark side, does not use dark side energy. What it does aim to do is draw upon the users inner darkness and stay on the very edges of it, drawing upon it and converting it to the light. So not they are not using both Light and Dark, they are using the very edges of the dark side to convert it into light energy for their own use.

Juyo Users completely channel the dark side unihinibited, additionally they try on darkness wherever it is, their surroundings or their own self or others near them.

Vaapad is not unique in that is draws on the opponents darkness, of which vaapad has a limit as it does not want its user to fall to the dark side. Vaapad is only able to draw on the edges of the darkness of both the own user and their opponent.

While Juyo is able to limitlessly draw on all darkness of the user and everything around them. In all honesty an equal Juyo user facing an equal vaapad user would find the Juyo user holding an advantage over the vaapad user in my opinion under the condition that the Juyo user is extremely potent in the dark side as well as the vaapad user being potent in the dark side. Why does the Juyo user have an advantage? BC the vaapad user is extremely limited in what he can channel of the dark side of both his own self and target, while the juyo user is not.

Board Walker
Using both Light and Dark has never shown to be an inherent advantage versus using purely dark or purely light. IE Revan Versus Sith Emperor.

It put Vitiate on his ass.
As to why it wasn't a decisive advantage, the text was very clear that Vitiate is significantly more skilled in his Force use than Revan. JT's scenario specifically mentioned that both combatants would be on par with one another.

Juyo practitioners completely submerge themselves in the darkside, they meld with FEAR, HATRED, JEALOUSY, PAIN, and so forth. They quite simply become one with them.

However, between warriors of a reasonably similar combat prowess, the Vaapad user should come out the victor save for certain variables. The form in and of itself, with all its metaphysical Force related properties, is indeed superior.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
It put Vitiate on his ass.
As to why it wasn't a decisive advantage, the text was very clear that Vitiate is significantly more skilled in his Force use than Revan. JT's scenario specifically mentioned that both combatants would be on par with one another.

The effect was barely more powerful than a regular Force Push.

Careful, LeGenD might rip you a new one.