Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style

I disagree,why BC the Jedi will stay true to that style's philosophy or traditions.

Kit Fisto stated that he should have been more wild and unpredictable in a past duel.
Being that his chosen style is Shii cho,he would be breaking
Shii cho's true purpose,to disarm an opponent not kill an opponent.

Like I said in my other posts Vaapad accepts this skill of Shii cho.
Shatterpoint (pp 399-401) Mace disarms Kar Vastor instead of killing him.
Mace also uses a masterful display of telekinesis to disarm him.
(A) Niman uses any technique of the Force in mid duel.
(B) Makashi uses the same and so does Shii cho.

What iI'm trying to say is Vaapad uses any technique that suits the state of mind of the practitioner or in this case.....Master. The technique would be Vaapad - fueled .

Now JuyoMaster,just what the hell are you talking about? Vaapad - fueled ?

IF yall remember ,the Vaapad essay(very well written)it explains almost everything what Board Walker does n't understand about Vaapad.

O.K Vaapad - Fueled : it is the immersion and the mentality of (1) Wanting to win (2)Wanting to fight. in other words a technique, skill or Force ability dangerously practiced (linked ) with Vaapad's state of mind .

Keep in MIND 3 masters 3 different states of mind this will also determine the winner between vaapad vs vaapad. might be stale mate might be one still standing as its true master.

Very good point, Darth Power.But here's the key Obi Wan recognises Maul's flaws and capitalizes on them. Maul is starting to use Dun Moch with his Juyo .

Obi Wan uses inverse Dun Moch with his Soresu.
Obi Wan is borrowing techniques from his mastery of Ataru as well as Soresu
And his advanced skills in Shii cho and Niman. now he combines all this into a hybrid form of no name which he absolutely kicks your ass with defensively though.

remember he is a master of Niman's "pure root " Soresu. (wookieepedia) Soresu /Niman

Let's not forget Sokan,he knows that,too. So does Maul.
Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

Maul has finally learned to never lower your guard until your opponent is dead but his pride and over confidence still gets the best of him. He has grown strong and patient.

He lacks the real training of a real Sith Lord.
Dun Moch affects both Maul and Kenobi
Their duel ended in a stale mate, but Savage was clearly defeated.

Maul is blinded by his rage and hatred for Kenobi.
once he learns to calm his rages and channel his hatred then he will be abel to defeat Obi Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It doesn't surprise me that Mace shows Ataru and Niman moves. Because Juyo/Vapaad users have to be high level masters of multiple forms.

But still I don't believe any form is the all and end all. End of the day Maul is a Juyo Master. In fact I think he completely mastered it. But he clearly can't defeat Kenobi in a strict Saber match.

Starkiller was also a user of Juyo, yet he had difficulty in pretty much every lightsaber fight he was in.

So clearly there's a lot more to Lightsaber fights than what form they use, and how many forms they know.

Combat smarts, battle tactics the level of mastery in their chosen form and of course their level of connection to the force all make a HUGE Difference in Saber combat.

Mace was a Juyo master before he was a Vaapad master
Vaapad has a huge connection to the Force.
His chosen Form is Vaapad,true master/creator

you're right I explained part of Vaapad's Force Mastery
Combat smarts check,battle tactics, check
level.... Master
connection to the Force my friend you can use Vaapad with or with out the Force
with state of mind with out state of mind switch it up vice or versa

Mace used Vaapad in many battles and won.
battle tactics? One or two - saber Vaapad?
armed or unarmed?

Force Mastery,the only light saber style besides sith juyo to use Force Crush without falling to the Dark Side.
using dark side powers as well as light side powers to the level of mastery.
Not just borrows their strengths I really mean adapt to whatever or who ever may come.

Force mastery is one of the requirements needed to practise this Form.

I agree with your answers. that's why it's more than a lightsaber style
it's a state of mind.Mace can wield Vaapad without even activating his lightsaber
it's not the end all evil but it is the end all style (in personal) combat or warefare

it respects the other styles it'just if someone gets out of line (personally) its the one you want first in your arsenal. Trust me we haven't seen its full potential

Quick question, why didn't the Council choose the chosen one or the negotiator to arrest Depa?
or any other Jedi? BC they would have died. In personal combat Vaapad always win. you send another living weapon to kill another living weapon.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Very good point, Darth Power.But here's the key Obi Wan recognises Maul's flaws and capitalizes on them. Maul is starting to use Dun Moch with his Juyo .

Obi Wan uses inverse Dun Moch with his Soresu.
Obi Wan is borrowing techniques from his mastery of Ataru as well as Soresu
And his advanced skills in Shii cho and Niman. now he combines all this into a hybrid form of no name which he absolutely kicks your ass with defensively though.

remember he is a master of Niman's "pure root " Soresu. (wookieepedia) Soresu /Niman

Let's not forget Sokan,he knows that,too. So does Maul.
Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

Maul has finally learned to never lower your guard until your opponent is dead but his pride and over confidence still gets the best of him. He has grown strong and patient.

He lacks the real training of a real Sith Lord.
Dun Moch affects both Maul and Kenobi
Their duel ended in a stale mate, but Savage was clearly defeated.

Maul is blinded by his rage and hatred for Kenobi.
once he learns to calm his rages and channel his hatred then he will be abel to defeat Obi Wan.

To make this shorter,Kenobi remembers past duel and Ataru 's weakness of confined spaces
wields two saber Ataru with what I said in other post (sokan and jar'kai )are apart of advanced Ataru
kenobi remembers past duel and tries to separate the brothers.
he fails but notices something predictable in savage's foot work, stance ,etc.
strategic decision to attack his knees(closest target to you )
succeeds and follows up with a deadly remove weapon arm (Cho sun)

Maul halts duel force pushes kenobi and retreats with a severely wounded Savage

Originally posted by juyomaster34

Maul is one of my fav's too,but is really not a SithLord

He is a living weapon of the Sith (Darth Plagueis) pages not sure/ also wookieepedia

That's got nothing to do with his combat abilities. He completely mastered Juyo and yet seems incapable of defeating Kenobi in pure Saber combat.

Also the route the CW show is taking is that Darth Maul was trained very well "in all the ways of the Sith" (according to Dave Filoni) and clearly is going to show he is a Galaxy wide threat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's got nothing to do with his combat abilities. He completely mastered Juyo and yet seems incapable of defeating Kenobi in pure Saber combat.

Also the route the CW show is taking is that Darth Maul was trained very well "in all the ways of the Sith" (according to Dave Filoni) and clearly is going to show he is a Galaxy wide threat.

yes I agree Maul is one of top fav's.

He is trained in all the ways of the Sith. trained as a living Sith weapon.
Maul was never trained to replace Palpatine.
Remember Sidious trained him well but not as his successor.

Your right about that,he did master juyo big BUT,
instead of finishing Kenobi
like I said in last post but in not so many words
he dropped his guard and Kenobi cut him in half.

Kenobi is a strategist, negotiator,his combat skills (wookieepedia) and any where else on the net,
what I'm saying about some styles is whatever your personality is its gonna go hand and hand
with that style.

certain styles are bred for combat
Maul may be a threat to the Galaxy but how long will you think Palpatine is gonna let Maul have free reign in the Galaxy?

That's Maul 's version of Juyo. Kenobi hasn't beat Yoda or Mace in a duel yet.
Maul has to find a way to best Obi Wan's skill.
Good talk Darth Power you pointed out some good points You win now back to Vaapad.

😆

The combat skills and etc.(wookipedia) any where on the net,role playing books
Too much to write Do you have a fav lightsaber style or are you blaster carring bounty hunter?

you guys say it's not better it really is,someone mentioned both sides of the Force.
it does uses both sides
Revan and the emperor,Revan was betrayed
distracted by exile's death

I'm gonna say it depends on the practitioner and his mindset
There will be a successor to Vaapad
It's all on the powers that be
You guys are great good thread

For the record in CW I'm getting tired of seeing Obi Wan and Anakin in nearly all the episodes
what about the council?other Jedi,Even an episode on Yoda's or Mace's past
Any good thread I'll be on the others' soon.
🥷

Originally posted by juyomaster34
yes I agree Maul is one of top fav's.

He is trained in all the ways of the Sith. trained as a living Sith weapon.
Maul was never trained to replace Palpatine.
Remember Sidious trained him well but not as his successor.

I'm saying I think CW might be about to retcon this idea.

Why would Sidious train him with the abilities to take over the Galaxy if he were dead sure he never wanted Maul to be his successor??

He was clearly trained as more than just an assassin.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Your right about that,he did master juyo big BUT,
instead of finishing Kenobi
like I said in last post but in not so many words
he dropped his guard and Kenobi cut him in half.

I wasn't talking about Kenobi cutting him in half in TPM. That was obviously a lucky/surprise move.

I meant in the last CW episode. It seems that Maul despite his power up can not defeat Kenobi in Sabers. So Juyo doesn't automatically beat every other form.

That's what I'm saying. Kenobi despite not knowing any Juyo is probably one of the Top Prequel are duelists. Heck he may be among the top duelists of all time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm saying I think CW might be about to retcon this idea.

Why would Sidious train him with the abilities to take over the Galaxy if he were dead sure he never wanted Maul to be his successor??

He was clearly trained as more than just an assassin.

I wasn't talking about Kenobi cutting him in half in TPM. That was obviously a lucky/surprise move.

I meant in the last CW episode. It seems that Maul despite his power up can not defeat Kenobi in Sabers. So Juyo doesn't automatically beat every other form.

That's what I'm saying. Kenobi despite not knowing any Juyo is probably one of the Top Prequel are duelists. Heck he may be among the top duelists of all time.

I agree and you're right.He clearly was trained as more than just an assassin.
Now that Maul is back,Will Sidious reveal himself to Maul??
Or test Maul's skill against Grievous to make him earn a surprise visit from his former Master??
Juyo doesn't beat any form,automatically no.

Kenobi is in that list of top duelist,Mace bestowed the rank of master of soresu to Kenobi.
In my opinion I believe Kenobi talked to Mace or Yoda about Juyo and wanted to know how
he could best Maul without learning Juyo which is still forbidden for even Masters to learn.

The Rank of Master? try wookieepedia or somewhere else

Mace:That's is so like you,Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I
invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form - or the Master of
the classic form? Mace Windu to Obi Wan Kenobi.
wookieepedia

Toward the end of the CW,Master Windu acknowledged Obi Wan Kenobi as the Master of Soresu. wookieepedia 🙂

Clearly I have under estimated certain truths and opinions about this topic.
Vaapad is not inhertly better by itself,it's the practitioners of the style and how well they have
mastered Vaapad and what they bring to the style.

In my opinion,in ROTS both book and movie,Vaapad's ultimate test against the most Powerful Sith Lord in history was flawed. The focus was clearly not on this duel. It was too short. it was not in the true interests on who would win.

Anakin was the focus as well as the shatterpoint. Mace realised this too late.
Mace had attachments to Dooku,he couldn't kill his friend in AOTC.

And clearly Dooku was the shatterpoint of that event.
I didn't read Dark Rendezous but clearly the same reason that the duel ended in a draw or stale mate is his attachments to his friend.

We still have yet to see Vaapad face it's ultimate test. Master Billaba was clearly a factor.Her Mastery of Vaapad would have turned the tide in many battles if she had n't gone to Haruun Kal. Her version of Vaapad might have helped Mace against Sidious. Instead of taking those guys who clearly weren't Masters of their craft.

There was a reply that Mace could n't beat Sora Bulq.
In that duel they both felt Jedi die in the Force.Mace had to end the duel to save the remaining padawans from Ventress.

You have certain styles and masters that are good for certain missions. Obi wan and Anakin are examples on this. When the Council rarely act on a mission that requires a true Master, they send Obi wan and Anakin instead of going themselves.

I say if you have a style you created,you should test it and test it again and again until you are sure
that your style is capable of meeting and defeating any adversary or conflict.

Niman practioners died in the field of battle,Niman evens all the strengths of Shii cho,Soresu,Ataru,and Shien/Djem So. The Styles have to fit with your personality and you with their
philosophies. Vaapad's State of Mind is very different from the others' state of mind. Sure anybody can have a state of mind when they fight.

But can they use that state of mind as lethal as Vaapad? No..... why?

Shii cho,basics to Makashi and Soresu.their main goal is Sun djem,unarming an opponent
and fighting multiple opponents The Sources say(wookieepedia,Jedi Path, and any other source)
says Shii cho cannot defeat Makashi no way no how. Makashi takes it a step further.

Makashi is all Saber to Saber,no blaster deflecting no strength no acrobatics.
the curved light saber is its signature weapon built for dueling.

Djem So created from Makashi and Soresu with a lil touch of Shien. brute strength,domination,
saber to saber, reflecting blaster bolts, counter attack.The Sith went further by adding Dun Moch.

I can go on and on but the fact is when Sora Bulq turned Dark Jedi who did they send to kill him Quinlan Vos....why? because of his skill in Vaapad.
When Depa Billaba turned insane dark Jedi,who did they send?The founder of Vaapad.why?
BC He knew how to fight her without killing her.
Depa Billaba ,Mace Windu,and Sora Bulq are the most dangerous Jedi in the Galaxy.

Now Quinlan Vos......,even Mace told all the Masters to be cautious of Quin.They don't how much of Vaapad he has learned from Sora Bulq.

Juyo doesn't beat,any form automatically,.......no.To the Jedi,Juyo will always be incomplete....
Yes Vaapad completes Juyo,again(to the Jedi). Vaapad uses the Force in between strikes,blows,and
lightsaber combat,the difference is to KILL,.... in Shatter Point Depa reflected the blaster bolts at the clones and the Balawai militia for one purpose....to kill. Juyo's philosophy is to kill too.

Vaapad goes further in technique,skill,armed or unarmed. Not inherently better? no, The practationer always makes a style inherently better. It's the deadliest lightsaber style besides Juyo.

A Juyo practationer always focuses on the Physical atacks
A Vaapad practationer always focuses on the Physical and Mental attacks.

Try to summarize your points please juyomaster34. I can't make out what your trying to say.

Darth Power I was trying to answer some of the past threads on this forum.
What I'm trying to say is we haven't seen Vaapad in action.
Just barely in comic books,movies,and novels.

I'm wondering if we'll ever see it in CW.
In my opinion it's better, I was just saying that I respect everyones' opinions.
In my post I write some of the things I have studied

Things from different sources. I have been trying to solve the mysteries of Juyo and Vaapad
for a long time. I think I'm getting closer.

When people visit these forums I wanted to give them some hope to what they want to know.
Some don't know what we know about these things.
So I wanted to give them something to think about.
If I'm wrong on some things then we got you guys and myself to straighten things out.

Vaapad is not better than any other styles. "There is no best martial art".
Vaapad is Juyo that goes with specific state of mind. Practitioners of other styles also maintain various states of mind that suit them but they didn't feel need to give it a name like Windu.

Vaapad has to fit in with your personality,your state of mind.
Your inner darkness. Some one asked me a while back,does the Jedi Code guild Vaapad
to be a weapon of the light?

Rather than the I want to win or both...... yes
But which Code? The old Code or the new one?
Depends on the practationer.

Board Walker explained some of what I was trying to say.
He made some good points
You made some good points.

Does Vaapad feed on the dark side?
That answer remains to be seen.
Board Walker talked about this.

It uses both sides of the Force
my guess would be half light and half dark
Did Mace study the teachings and the history of both Revan and Darth Revan
to create Vaapad?

It takes the name of the animal.
Does it drain energy like the real vaapad does?

Board Walker touched on the hybrid part also.
Hey Board Walker if you're reading this it would be great if you could reply to this too.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is not better than any other styles. "There is no best martial art".
Vaapad is Juyo that goes with specific state of mind. Practitioners of other styles also maintain various states of mind that suit them but they didn't feel need to give it a name like Windu.

Hey Arhael,what's up. good point. Well its the practationer and what he or she adds to the style
to make it the best to them.I like the specific state of mind part. And the other part as well.

Let me ask you a question. In my replies did confuse you?
Or did I question your curiosity?
If I didn't that 's okay too. I'm just trying to make my replies better.

In each era when the lightsaber styles were created the Jedi had to adapt to certain situations.
The lightsaber styles themselves had to adapt as well.
Juyo was the last of them to adapt.

When Vaapad was created,it was suppose to be the finished Juyo.
In the Old Republic era Juyo is some what complete.
If there is knowledge of the complete Juyo it would probably be in the Great Holocron.