Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Hey Arhael,what's up. good point. Well its the practationer and what he or she adds to the style
to make it the best to them.I like the specific state of mind part. And the other part as well.

Let me ask you a question. In my replies did confuse you?
Or did I question your curiosity?
If I didn't that 's okay too. I'm just trying to make my replies better.

To be honest didn't read everything. From recently I have too much work and too little time to go through everything.

No, I didn't get confused as I answered question for myself already but you brought some good points, which made me to share my insight.

Yes, newer styles were invented to counter weaknesses of older style.
But it doesn't really make newer ones better. Any combatant on finding weaknesses in his style would find ways to get read of them, so even Form I practitioner can learn to defend against any advanced Forms.
Techniques come only from first two Forms: two-handed techniques from Form I and one-handed techniques from Form II. The rest of the Forms bring only philosophy without actual techniques.

As for state of mind as you said Vaapad has to fit personality. Windu would never be able to reach full potential as pure lightsider because of his "badass" personality. But with Vaapad he could utilize his darkness and just be himself, thus reach his full potential during combat. This style would be completely unsutable for someone like Kenobi, Yoda or Luke.

In a way Vaapad indeed is inherently better style during Old Republic. Because Jedi could not be themselves. Instead of drawing on positive emotions they were taught to have no emotions at all. Vaapad power comes from relishing fight - it is a positive emotion, something Windu felt good about. So Windu was one step ahead of everyone else as he could just be himself and draw on positive emotions the fight itself was giving him.

Only with Luke's New Order this weakness was eliminated as he lifted no attachments rule, so Jedi could have much more positive emotions to draw on.

Originally posted by Arhael
To be honest didn't read everything. From recently I have too much work and too little time to go through everything.

No, I didn't get confused as I answered question for myself already but you brought some good points, which made me to share my insight.

Yes, newer styles were invented to counter weaknesses of older style.
But it doesn't really make newer ones better. Any combatant on finding weaknesses in his style would find ways to get read of them, so even Form I practitioner can learn to defend against any advanced Forms.
Techniques come only from first two Forms: two-handed techniques from Form I and one-handed techniques from Form II. The rest of the Forms bring only philosophy without actual techniques.

As for state of mind as you said Vaapad has to fit personality. Windu would never be able to reach full potential as pure lightsider because of his "badass" personality. But with Vaapad he could utilize his darkness and just be himself, thus reach his full potential during combat. This style would be completely unsutable for someone like Kenobi, Yoda or Luke.

In a way Vaapad indeed is inherently better style during Old Republic. Because Jedi could not be themselves. Instead of drawing on positive emotions they were taught to have no emotions at all. Vaapad power comes from relishing fight - it is a positive emotion, something Windu felt good about. So Windu was one step ahead of everyone else as he could just be himself and draw on positive emotions the fight itself was giving him.

Only with Luke's New Order this weakness was eliminated as he lifted no attachments rule, so Jedi could have much more positive emotions to draw on.

😄 🙂 😆 Thanks you made a very good points,too I meant to say did I confuse you
you said I didn't so that's cool.

You mentioned the New Order,I agree with you on that.
But who in the New Order could adapt Vaapad to their time?
I think Kyle Katarn

You know your craft maybe we get the other guys in and share a little bit.
I know this a touchy topic but I'm trying to test a few theories before I debate else where
You and DarthPower have been a great help to me. Thank you guys!!!!

May the Force be with you

The way I understand Vaapad is that it allows Force user to use darkside without feeling guilty about it. When Anakin observed fight, he actually felt Windu succumbing to darkside: "There was no Jedi restraint. Mase Windu was cutting loose". And Anakin felt fury in both Windu and Sidious: "He could fee fury spray into the Force through some poisonous abscess in both their hearts".
However, in his mentality Windu is not using darkside but let it pass in and out. "The darkness had no power over him but neither did he have power over it". While Anakin feels his fury, in Windu's mentality he interprets it as reflecting power back to its source. So, while he uses his inner darkness, at the same time he maintains Jedi focus and taps into his full potential that way.

Don't think that Vaapad would suit Kyle Katarn despite his combat oriented attitude. While he had struggles with darkside a lot and was consumed by it during Dromund Kaas, he demonstrated that he can cast it off completely. In both games JK and JKII in final fights he completely let go of his anger. It demonstrates that he doesn't need Vaapad.

However, there are quite a few characters that practice similar things to Vaapad.
Jaina in Apocalypse was thriving on Chaos. She fought brutally like a Sith or assassin and was even getting pleasure from it.

Jacen in a way went beyond Vaapad. As Jedi he drew on all sorts of emotions. Empowered by pain, converted anger into electric judgement. Evan as Sith he did not just drew on anger and pain. He had attachment to his daughter, which was giving him even more determination. But still Vaapad wouldn't suit him, he didn't enjoy fights and was always thinking beyond that and he did go beyond everything by reaching deepest known unity with the Force.

Finally Saba Sebatyne. She is the best candidate for Vaapad as she does the same thing anyway. Fight for her is a hunt. She relishes it and genuinely feels happy. If opponent is very strong, it makes her feel even happier to fight worthy opponent. She is very strong and her fighting style is brutal according to her race. Even in terms of power and combat skill she is a powerhouse imho on par with Windu. They have a lot in common.

I understand Vaapad as giving yourself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight(relish)
And the satisfaction of winning.

A Jedi MUST also ACCEPT and EMBRACE the FURY of the opponent.
This TRANSFORMS a Jedi into HAIF of a SUPERCONDUCTING LOOP,
the OTHER HALF being the POWER OF DARKNESS,which passes
IN and OUT of the Jedi WITHOUT touching him.

Vaapad is more than a fighting style it's a state of mind, a path that leads through
the penumbra of the darkside.

Juyo cuts close to Sith intensity of focus on physical combat
where Vaapad focuses both on Jedi and Sith intensity of focus on physical and mental
combat abilities.

including psychological warfare.
Example Depa Billaba.

It uses a deeper well of emotions.
Again, who says you can't use your pain or any of the examples you have given.
With Juyo you can feed off your own pain or any other emotion .
it's a Sith technique, Vaapad being created from Juyo shares the same abilities.

They may have been lost to SkyWalker and his Order but the Jedi that survived Order 66
and past SkyWalker's Order to legacy knew the 7 classical forms. Vaapad was not mentioned
because NOBODY had the ballls to write about it like Matthew Stover.

Why? because it's the most dangerous and the most deadliest of all styles.
inheretly better?no Just Best of the Best of what it can do.

Very Good points you gave,disagree I do....,about Kyle Katarn.
That's why I chose him as the perfect canadate.
If Sora were alive he would have picked the same person.

He might not need it he wouldn't be a true Battle Master without it .
He embraced both sides
He fell to the dark side (temperally )
Both trials he had to fight and control his own inner darkness.

what else oh yeah that Force choke and grip he likes using (to interrogate)

You mentioned Jaina,her Mandalorian training
I read some skipped the rest.
They didn't know Vaapad.
Jango was killed by Mace and Vaapad.

Jaina didn't know Vaapad or Juyo.
I'm very sure they knew Strong ,Medium, and Fast styles
Such stupid names for a lightsaber style.

With styles like them I'll personally learn from a Mandalorian. lol !!!
She had no inner darkness but she would have brought something new to Vaapad.

That era would of been perfect for Vaapad.
Dark Jedi ,Dark Side Adepts, Sith, and a hyped up pre suit to peak suit Vader.

Arhael, if you're reading this, then you will know honestly I agree with some of your views
on this thread. You have an ability to see past and through certain things,
You gave great replies and feed back on this topic
which still got me thinking.

I only disagree because Vaapad is more than what we both have said about it.
You gave a nice reply to why it's not used in the NJO.
But if you think about it, really think about it, It could have been.

You said something about the NJO have accepted emotions and being themselves,
then Djem So, Juyo, and Vaapad would have been perfect to test that theory.
I know Djem So is being used,but the adanced forms are not.

I read something about Juyo is being studied by them,
Since you know more about this era I wouldn't mind being a student
in your expertise on this era.

So what is the general consensus regarding Vaapad? I still believe vaapad is no greater than any other combat form, that each form is its own philosophy and way of life as well as a form of combat.

I also believe Vaapad and Juyo are two entirely different forms

Originally posted by Board Walker
So what is the general consensus regarding Vaapad? I still believe vaapad is no greater than any other combat form, that each form is its own philosophy and way of life as well as a form of combat.

I also believe Vaapad and Juyo are two entirely different forms

Calling one style innately superior to all the others ignores that each mode of combat has separate advantages and disadvantages; obviously, soresu is better than vaapad at deflecting blaster bolts, for example. Difference styles may also better suit different individuals.

That being said, vaapad, described as the "deadliest" form of dueling, has a rather haxxed powerset in its ability to draw on the enemy's own dark side energies, to the point where Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious in a duel.

Vapaad is only useful to individuals who are inherently dark but are still attuned to the light. Since Mace is the only one who has proven he can handle vapaad without going to the dark side then obviously vapaad would be a terrible choice for people like Anakin.

So no it's not the best style for any Jedi. But for Mace? Yeah it's the best form of lightsaber combat and it ain't close.

How would anakin do using vaapad?

Also what is the differencr between vaapad and juyo?

If vaapad is best for inherent dark siders but attuned to the light, then is there a stance for inherent light siders that are attuned to the dark?

Good point,I disagree,Soresu is good at deflecting,but personally Shien
is better than Soresu at reflecting and deflecting.

Soresu is all defense,..you could only go so far with that,you won't win
with Soresu alone but hey what ever floats your boat...

Juyo and Vaapad are different...but using it only for dark siders,...
is like saying Juyo is only good against Organics...which is false...

To me,it was never meant for an average Jedi or an average master.
To me,it was meant for someone who is gray or have mastered both light and dark.

or someone who has mastered Juyo.
And I wouldn't say Soresu is better than Vaapad at deflecting blaster bolts when Shien is better at it then Soresu.

Shien and Vaapad wants the enemy dead,not given several attempts to try to kill you with deflecting bolts over their head or past their body and etc.

prolonging the gun battle,F...that...prolonging anything too long gets you killed.

Some Jedi survived the CW because of Soresu and Shien,Mace and Sora Bulq survived alone with Vaapad...

inherently better than any other saber style? yes when the fight gets
personal,and if it is just business,then you send the other stylists,oh that's right that's when they foolishly had a majority of the Niman specialist killed and the most casualties I might add why send

diplomats into the field of battle when their specialty is diplomacy...
And the time for peace talk had been long over...

If you are the best in that style,then that's saying a whole lot about you and that style whether its meant to battle dark siders or light siders.
Most of what I said is based on facts and my personal research into the mystery of Vaapad as well as Juyo...the other styles have their flaws as well as Vaapad and Juyo but when it comes to combat,personal or business or other wise..Form VII is the best form for the job.

Anakin would be terrible for both Juyo and Vaapad..
Djem So and Shien works great for him..good choice.

Of course,it's not the best form for a Jedi. Some would agree that Niman or Soresu is. That's what they have been taught to believe...

Its better than any other style,when the situation calls for it to be the best style...Clearly Niman was not the best style for the entire CW..
So that's saying alot right there.

Ok BW...you made a point Anakin wouldn't be terrible for Juyo
he would be great....
he mastered Djem So,he mastered Shien,....the next step is Juyo for him.
Juyo emphasises heavy Force use and heavy offense I can see Anakin weilding Juyo.
his HTH combat skills has to meet Juyo's physical onslaught in between saber strikes and physical
Force use.