(Jedi Outcast) Luke Skywalker - vs - (Dynasty of Evil) Darth Bane

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
Caedus tortured Luke's son, murdered his wife, and threatened to kill Jedi children and still Luke let him walk.

Caedus: Luke's beloved Nephew who fell to the Dark side because of foolishness - not because he was truly evil.

What would happen if he succeeded: A second Empire would be born, some people would die; others be enslaved, and some people would live and still be free. The galaxy at large would still be relatively safe; no more in danger than the last Empire that inhabited it. Same as always.

Desann: A space-lizard who had no important connection to Luke. Who was also deliberately evil, from the get-go.

What would happen if he succeeded: Desann would absorb the power of the Valley of the Jedi - effectively making him invincable.
Trillions of innocent people could die instantly because of him.

The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen.
A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power."
―Qu Rahn

Unbeatable from that point on, Desann would irreversibly murder Luke's entire family and could go on a killing spree - wiping out all life in the universe, if he felt cast-out by them enough.

So it's either kill Desann - or watch him murder your family.

Unless Luke really valued Desann over Leia and her children - or Luke had some kind of secret romantic involvment with Desann - Luke basically lost fair and square.

There is no between here - unless Luke used his TK to either over-ride Desann's and slam his head into a wall - knocking him out mercifully or else just fling some debris at Desann's head, knocking him out mercifully.

But he could not do that. He was not capable of doing that to Desann. And doing that would not only simply end the threat, but do so in a merciful way. And Luke was not able to do that. Because Desann was too fast and powerful - and Luke Could Not beat him.

Luke did not try to turn Desann back during their fight, either.

And with Caedus, Blood is always thicker than water.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua

Likewise, with all due respect, there is no reason to believe that Desann or Kyle are superior combatants to Luke when they lack his power and training.

With Desann training for only 1 year, Luke should have been able to easily disable him without hurting him too badly - but he wasn't good enough to do that.

Meh. I think Bane takes it, but not because he is so "superior in every way because Luke sux" but because he will end up hitting Luke a bit harder. Luke has a tendency to block and get into a contest of strength, even if its Force enhanced (where his is no slouch) but Bane just has him beat. I think its safe to say, with Force-steroids, Bane is one of the strongest humans to ever live. It can be argued, and there really isn't any point in saying it since its speculation, but its just a neat little concept to me.

Originally posted by ares834
Well if we are going to low ball and not take into consideration other factors...

This isn't low-balling - this was Luke's Boss battle with Palpatine, and he lost.

Later, when Anakin and Leia joined their energy to him, through BM he was able to win - before, he got taken out, in a short amount of time.

And when Luke fought Desann the Boss of the game he also lost against that Boss.

So this isn't low-balling - these are Luke's showings against Bosses.

Originally posted by ares834

DoE Bane was defeated by a few mercenaries and an untrained force-sensative.

Gee, was this before or after Bane was dying? 😆

Originally posted by ares834

I've argued against the panel=seconds

I'm sure Palpatine's fast enough to swing a lightsaber around in a few movements that wouldn't require minutes to physically accomplish in the panels displayed in the story.

Originally posted by ares834

and Leia boosting Luke.

This was proven by the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and also the comic, I believe - and also by some of the greatest Debators here.

Hell, even Darth Power will admit it.

Originally posted by ares834

You're move.

I'm move? No, I'm Battlemaster. 😛

As you said, Desann was the boss fight of the game. Therefore, if Luke killed him before the end, you wouldn't have a boss fight. Luke could have killed Desann, but PIS stated otherwise.

Jerec was not that powerful after absorbing the power in the Valley, that is obviously an exaggeration. Kyle did as well, he couldn't do as such.

BM was never proved to be used by Leia. Its up to your interpretation.

Bane was fine when he was taken down, but the Huntress unconciously interferes with connecting to the Force. She makes it hard to use.

Bosses don't actually exist in Star Wars you know, just video games. Luke has had to have low showings, because otherwise everything would be over in a minute.

No, he's calling it low-balling because you've taken a single example and isolated it from context and circumstance. I'll say it again: Luke is stronger in the Force than either Desann or Kyle and has trained in the Jedi arts for substantially longer than both of them combined. I'm not interested in that kind of argument. I provided a well sourced and well reasoned explanation for why Luke was briefly overcome by Desann and not only do you ignore it, but when I remind you that Luke has natural strength and training on his side, you ignore that as well.

It's clear from the opening post that your conclusion is inflexible and that this discussion will be nothing but a perpetual circle. I'll pass.

I still say Bane wins. I just refuse to give in to the rampant faboy-ism that permeates the very air on these boards nowadays, so I point out some things for Luke.

Sorry, I was speaking to Battlemaster but was too lazy to quote him.

Ah. I forgive you. This time glare

Originally posted by Battlemaster
This isn't low-balling - this was Luke's Boss battle with Palpatine, and he lost.

It's low-balling. Taking a single duel while removing it from context and claiming it is how powerful Luke is is low-balling.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Gee, was this before or after Bane was dying? 😆

No. Bane was very much alive at the time.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm sure Palpatine's fast enough to swing a lightsaber around in a few movements that wouldn't require minutes to physically accomplish in the panels displayed in the story.

Except, panels don't have to show every single attack. As pointed out when they fought it was on Byss which is a powerful dark side nexus.

From the radio drama, "Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to this. To the very heart of the dark side."

Originally posted by Battlemaster
This was proven by the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and also the comic, I believe - and also by some of the greatest Debators here.

Hell, even Darth Power will admit it.

If it was proven in the Dark Empire Sourcebook lets see the quote.

In the drama however it's clear that Leia didn't meld with Luke until after Luke defeats Palpatine.

Here is what she says afterwards, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

Originally posted by Pwned
As you said, Desann was the boss fight of the game. Therefore, if Luke killed him before the end, you wouldn't have a boss fight. Luke could have killed Desann, but PIS stated otherwise.

No, Luke didn't kill Desann because he couldn't. Desann's gaining the power of the Valley would spell certain doom for the universe. He could at least knocked Desann out - and he couldn't even manage that. He lost fair and square.

Originally posted by Pwned
Jerec was not that powerful after absorbing the power in the Valley, that is obviously an exaggeration. Kyle did as well, he couldn't do as such.

Kyle used a method to curtail Jerec's connection to the Valley - while Jerec was still absorbing it.
Had Kyle not done this and had Jerec finished absorbing all the power, then Qu Rahn's warning would have come to fruition.

Originally posted by Pwned

BM was never proved to be used by Leia. Its up to your interpretation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's cited in Empire's End that she used BM (Battle Meditation) .

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
No, he's calling it low-balling because you've taken a single example and isolated it from context and circumstance. I'll say it again: Luke is stronger in the Force than either Desann or Kyle and has trained in the Jedi arts for substantially longer than both of them combined. I'm not interested in that kind of argument. I provided a well sourced and well reasoned explanation for why Luke was briefly overcome by Desann and not only do you ignore it, but when I remind you that Luke has natural strength and training on his side, you ignore that as well.

It's clear from the opening post that your conclusion is inflexible and that this discussion will be nothing but a perpetual circle. I'll pass.

If Desann gets the Valley's power, the universe is gone, period.

Luke knows that; Kyle knows that.

Sparing Desann's life means dooming the Universe - it's that simple.

Luke wouldn't value Desann over Leia, or Anakin or Jacen or Jaina.

He lost.

Originally posted by ares834
It's low-balling. Taking a single duel while removing it from context and claiming it is how powerful Luke is is low-balling.

Luke lost against two Bosses who were going to kill innocent people - especially Desann.

Originally posted by ares834

No. Bane was very much alive at the time.

And not dying? 😄

Originally posted by ares834

Except, panels don't have to show every single attack.

Get me some proof that there was more to that fight than what was in those panels, and then you'll have something.

Originally posted by ares834

In the drama however it's clear that Leia didn't meld with Luke until after Luke defeats Palpatine.

Here is what she says afterwards, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

LOL. You're hilarious. 😆

Why would Leia meld with Luke after his duel with Palpatine?

A victory mind-****? 😆

Seriously, if you're going to bother casting your two cents into the pot - make sure they aren't counterfeit. 😛

You use BM during fights - and if she hadn't used BM, then Luke would be dead.

So make sure your arguments make sense. 😆

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Get me some proof that there was more to that fight than what was in those panels, and then you'll have something.

I'm not saying that it was longer. Only that is potentionally longer... There is no way of knowing.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
LOL. You're hilarious. 😆

Why would Leia meld with Luke after his duel with Palpatine?

A victory mind-****? 😆

Seriously, if you're going to bother casting your two cents into the pot - make sure they aren't counterfeit. 😛

You use BM during fights - and if she hadn't used BM, then Luke would be dead.

So make sure your arguments make sense. 😆

So now it's clear you didn't even read Dark Empire.

If you had you would know that after Luke defeated Palpatine in their duel, Palpatine summoned a force storm to destroy the Rebels.

Well, I'm done here.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying that it was longer. Only that is potentionally longer... There is no way of knowing.

That's bull. 😛

Originally posted by ares834

So now it's clear you didn't even read Dark Empire.
If you had you would know that after Luke defeated Palpatine in their duel, Palpatine summoned a force storm to destroy the Rebels.

Well, I'm done here.

I know well enough to know Leia did indeed use Battle Meditation in the duel to help defeat Palpatine, as my good friend DARTH POWER pointed out.

Now go sulk. 😆

No, she didn't. Leia is not even capable of using BM as far as I know, because not only would that be her ONLY showing of it, but her talents lie along the lines of diplomacy and negotiation.

I honestly don't think you know what your talking about half the time here.

Luke could beat Desann, no problem. But Kyle absorbed the power of the Valley, and he was nowehere near that powerful. Seriously, that is an exaggeration. Also, I want to see the quote where it says that Leia used BM from DE. If there is no such quote specifically lining out BM, then thats BS. Your own logic.

Yes, Bane lost while he was perfectly fine. He wasn't even tired. And yet the Huntress, while yes, she was inhibiting his connection, it was not terrible. I jsut reread the scene, "Four soldiers armed with stun rifles sent a barrage of bolts raining down from the balcony;Bane--Still reeling from the sonic detonators--barely had enough time to throw up a protective barrier to shield him from the assault. As he did so, he felt something fighting him. Some power was trying to block his ability to call upon the Force to shield himself. It wasn't strong enough to stop him, but it did hinder his efforts just enough so that a flicker of energy passed through the barrier." Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, page 169.

As obvious, while Bane was not at PEAK condition due to slight interference (he had 4 bars instead of 5 for his Force connection) he was still taken down by some mercs. Luke, however, has only failed in the interest of Plot. Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.

Originally posted by Pwned
No, she didn't. Leia is not even capable of using BM as far as I know, because not only would that be her ONLY showing of it, but her talents lie along the lines of diplomacy and negotiation.
I honestly don't think you know what your talking about half the time here.

So, are you calling DARTH POWER a liar, or are you admitting that you're mentally-retarded?

DARTH POWER made all the same arguments you did, and then went and looked through the Dark Empire series, before he finally came back and informed me that it was indeed cited that Leia used Battle Meditation.

And this guy had argued with me for three or four Threads, saying that Leia didn't know BM, and then went and saw she did and re-nigged.

DARTH POWER knows she uses Battle Meditation, and so do a bunch of other knowledgeable Debators here.

That means you're the one with the learning disability, Sonny.

Originally posted by Pwned

Luke could beat Desann, no problem.

Which is why he did, right?

Originally posted by Pwned

But Kyle absorbed the power of the Valley, and he was nowehere near that powerful.

You're an idiot. When Kyle traveled to the Valley of the Jedi, he sought out a small piece of residual energy and stepped into it - only to regain his connection to the Force.

Kyle isn't the type of person to want to claim the power of the Valley for himself anyway.

Then Desann tracked the Valley down and planned to harness all the power of the Valley for his own ends.

Originally posted by Pwned

Seriously, that is an exaggeration.

I don't think Rahn risked his life to keep the location of the Valley from Jerec if it weren't as every bit dangerous as he said it was.

Have you even played Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II? Qu Rahn specifically states the Universal Cosmic power that an individual would gain from fully-absorbing the power of the Valley.

Originally posted by Pwned

Also, I want to see the quote where it says that Leia used BM from DE. If there is no such quote specifically lining out BM, then thats BS. Your own logic.

I'll have to ask the formerly-biggest Leia-BM Denier for that information. He's the one who found it outlined in Empire's End.

In the meantime, you might want to read some Star Wars books and watch the movies; familiarize yourself with the Star Wars Universe. You might like it. 😉

Originally posted by Pwned

Yes, Bane lost while he was perfectly fine. He wasn't even tired. And yet the Huntress, while yes, she was inhibiting his connection, it was not terrible. I jsut reread the scene, "Four soldiers armed with stun rifles sent a barrage of bolts raining down from the balcony;Bane--Still reeling from the sonic detonators--barely had enough time to throw up a protective barrier to shield him from the assault. As he did so, he felt something fighting him. Some power was trying to block his ability to call upon the Force to shield himself. It wasn't strong enough to stop him, but it did hinder his efforts just enough so that a flicker of energy passed through the barrier." Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, page 169.

As obvious, while Bane was not at PEAK condition due to slight interference (he had 4 bars instead of 5 for his Force connection) he was still taken down by some mercs. Luke, however, has only failed in the interest of Plot. Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.

Wait, so Bane had his connection to the Force attacked?

Okay, and when did that happen when Luke was fighting the 1 Year student?

Never.

Luke had a full connection to the Force and perfectly healthy at the time. And got his ass kicked.

Originally posted by Pwned

Saying Luke could not beat Desann due to weakness, but then Kyle can go and beat a powered up Desann, is just plain ignorance.

Actually, that's more like proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke.

Desann fully-absorbing the Valley = Death Sentence for the Universe and Luke couldn't stop Desann from going there, and didn't even want to fight him once he got to the Valley.

Kyle managed to catch up to Desann before he had absorbed all the power and saved the Universe.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So, are you calling DARTH POWER a liar, or are you admitting that you're mentally-retarded?

DARTH POWER made all the same arguments you did, and then went and looked through the Dark Empire series, before he finally came back and informed me that it was indeed cited that Leia used Battle Meditation.

And this guy had argued with me for three or four Threads, saying that Leia didn't know BM, and then went and saw she did and re-nigged.

DARTH POWER knows she uses Battle Meditation, and so do a bunch of other knowledgeable Debators here.

That means you're the one with the learning disability, Sonny.

😆

You still don't realize it was after the duel when she helped Luke make Palpatine loose control of the storm. Read the comic next time before you debate about it next time rather than rely on what others have said. Hell, you're complete lack of understanding of the story suggest you didn't even bother to read up a summary on Wookieepedia.

In case you forgot.

Originally posted by ares834
In the drama however it's clear that Leia didn't meld with Luke until after Luke defeats Palpatine.

Here is what she says afterwards, "But we can Luke. We can do it. That's what the holocron meant. Let me add my power to yours."

So if anyone here has a learning disability, I'm sorry to say, it's you. Either that or you ignore it to push your biased agenda.

Anyways this time I officially retire from the “debate”. Or at least until such a time that Battlemaster, or someone else who shares his opinion on the DE duel, brings up canon evidence to the contrary of what I said and do not rely on what others have stated.

The only defense you have is "Plot said otherwise! LUL!"? Seriously? Thats how your saying it.

Oh, and unless you get me the panel where Leia uses BM during Luke's fight with Sidious, then you are just saying the same thing, no matter that you have no basis of support. I don't care who said what, I want to see the proof (as my copy of DE was long ago lost. Moving :/ )

It was attacked to a bare minimum. And again, Plot said Luke can't kill him there. Otherwise Desann would have died pretty early. Plus, Luke isn't the sort of guy to go "I am so powerful, I can take anybody down." No, he doesn't think he can take Desann down when he could. Its a no brainer. I will look up the time frame for JKO, I am not quite sure on the year.

So, didn't want to read it? Get me hard proof, not one one person says. Desann had access to the Valley, he walked into it. So whatever you say, he didn't claim the power. Seriously, at least look up the material you are "debating" Your debate hinges on "Luke "lost" one fight fair and square so he can never win"
I have no clue why you are so biased against Luke. Besides, I already said Bane wins.

Or go read some Star Wars. You mayenjoy it.

Originally posted by ares834
You still don't realize it was after the duel when she helped Luke make Palpatine loose control of the storm. Read the comic next time before you debate about it next time rather than rely on what others have said. Hell, you're complete lack of understanding of the story suggest you didn't even bother to read up a summary on Wookieepedia.

And you still don't realize I was talking about Leia using Battle Meditation during the duel - which she used.

Your lack of understanding of basic concepts suggests that you and your friend may have a future together at a Day Care Center, playing with blocks. 😆

Originally posted by ares834

Hell, you're complete

I am complete? 😛

Yes, I am. 😄 After experiencing the depths of your stupidity, I do feel as if my life is complete. Thank you.

Originally posted by ares834
* In case you forgot.

So it anyon here has a learming dibabiliky, Im sorry to sahy its you.

You mean, you? 😛 😆

Originally posted by ares834

Either that or you ignore it to push your biased agenda.
Anyways this time I officially retire from the “debate”. Or at least until such a time that Battlemaster, or someone else who shares his opinion on the DE duel, brings up canon evidence to the contrary of what I said and do not rely on what others have stated.

I guess you'll be disagreeing with Canon, an ex-Leia BM Naysayer (DARTH POWER) and some of the best Debators in this forum.

Go ahead and retire - and move on to something that requires less mental strength. 😆

Originally posted by Battlemaster

I guess you'll be disagreeing with Canon, an ex-Leia BM Naysayer (DARTH POWER) and some of the best Debators in this forum.

More to the point, this is like watching dorky fourth graders attempt to trash talk. If you had stuck to simple name-calling, I'd have winced at some inappropriate usage of the "r-word" and then moved on. But really, "move on to something that requires less mental strength" isn't exactly comedy-roast level witticism. Go ahead and take a breather because it's becoming embarrassing. Better luck next time, champ.