I am somewhat of an accomplished wrestler and I can tell you that technique and power beats out speed any day of the week bro... Speed is nowhere enar the most important or even that important. As already said movement is restricted when grappling and when you both have a hold of eachother it's technique and power that wins the day, and as already said with Bane's lack of training with a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu equivalent discipline, his lack of understand will mean that with precog he could possibly go in a worse off position.
Bane is by no means weak on the ground, you may be referring tpo his submission skills and this is non-submission restling, his top control is great and among the best of all heavyweight wrestlers.
With the absolutely GIGANTIC advantage in grappling expereince, training, technique and isntincts, comparable advantage in strenght, Brock should take this.
BTW when I said this:
From what I have seen of this foum people tend to heavily udnerestimate the technique of real world fighters and overestimate force usuers, even when i handicap them to make fights slightly closer.
You are prime example of what I was talking about.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
(when I was much younger, I was on my school's Wrestling Team)
Also, if Force Speed is enabled, Bane can easily race behind Lesnar as a blur (such as Obi and Jinn did in TPM), sleeper hold/rear naked choke/anal violation, gg bro, /thread.
You're sorely underestimating how fast Force users can be when they want to, Park, and Bane is a ****ing Force titan.
Well it's a non-submission match so no choaks and the like aloud.
Doesn't force speed such as what we see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do only work in straight lines, or at the very least not something usable with precise movements? I always got the impression that if they moved like that in close combat they'd probably run into the other guy's lightsaber or something, and that's why they were always much slower...
TBH even if Bane used his speed to get into a superior opening position, such as get his back, I;m not sure he has the technique, next to brock's, to hold that position. You see it in MMA a lot, and Jiu-Jitsu is extremely important with such positional control, and typically if there's a large gap in Jiu-Jitsu (to a lesser extent wrestling) between two guys you'll often see the guy in the worse position, such as with his back exposed, or on the bottom, perform a reversal, so I wouldn't be surprised in that's what Brock would do here.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Well it's a non-submission match so no choaks and the like aloud.
Okay. Bane chain-German suplexes Brock until his spine bursts, augmenting each slam with Force speed. What's your point?
Doesn't force speed such as what we see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do only work in straight lines, or at the very least not something usable with precise movements? I always got the impression that if they moved like that in close combat they'd probably run into the other guy's lightsaber or something, and that's why they were always much slower...
You never see Force speed necessarily having one Force user with a definite advantage over another. They are only shown as blurs in reference to say, droids or normal sentients. GL, iirc, indicated in behind the scenes content that Jedi/Sith fights were supposed to be from their frame of reference and thus actually taking place faster than what we see. Why he failed to illustrate this point with narrative, or you know, having things move slower by comparison is beyond me, but it's there.
TBH even if Bane used his speed to get into a superior opening position, such as get his back, I;m not sure he has the technique, next to brock's, to hold that position. You see it in MMA a lot, and Jiu-Jitsu is extremely important with such positional control, and typically if there's a large gap in Jiu-Jitsu (to a lesser extent wrestling) between two guys you'll often see the guy in the worse position, such as with his back exposed, or on the bottom, perform a reversal, so I wouldn't be surprised in that's what Brock would do here.
You're missing the point here though. Bane has equal or greater physical strength, he's no novice fighter by any means, he's killed before numerous opponents, worked his body to perhaps peak physical shape, and he has some measure of precognition, meaning he can read into the immediate future and move to avoid Brock's next move.
There's literally nothing you have produced that shows why Brock would beat Darth Maul, much less Darth Bane. Start ponying up some sources or at least Youtube videos, Park.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Okay. Bane chain-German suplexes Brock until his spine bursts, augmenting each slam with Force speed. What's your point?
A superior wrestler/Jiu-Jitsu guy can defend against a suplex, and are we sure Bane can use force speed while performing such a grappling motion and picking up someone as heavy as Brock Lesnar.
You never see Force speed necessarily having one Force user with a definite advantage over another. They are only shown as blurs in reference to say, droids or normal sentients. GL, iirc, indicated in behind the scenes content that Jedi/Sith fights were supposed to be from their frame of reference and thus actually taking place faster than what we see. Why he failed to illustrate this point with narrative, or you know, having things move slower by comparison is beyond me, but it's there.
I agree but I'm still not sure that they can use Force Speed to quite the extent with precise movements in close combat ads they can by say running away from droid in a long corridor.
You're missing the point here though. Bane has equal or greater physical strength, he's no novice fighter by any means, he's killed before numerous opponents, worked his body to perhaps peak physical shape, and he has some measure of precognition, meaning he can read into the immediate future and move to avoid Brock's next move.There's literally nothing you have produced that shows why Brock would beat Darth Maul, much less Darth Bane. Start ponying up some sources or at least Youtube videos, Park.
Well I would post videos but ti's extremely hard to find UFC videos online... but well in his fight with Frank Mir for example he effortlessly took him down at will and stayed on top of him the entire time, and for both fights. I;m sure you can at least take my word for it that he's an incredibly skilled wrestler right? He was an all-american two times in a row, being the champion in one of those years and runner up in the other, he was in the Big Ten Conference two times in a row and in one of those years voted the number 1 heavyweight, and in the wrestling world these credentials are out of this world. And just look at him, the guy's an absoltue beast: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=brock+lesnar&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=934&tbm=isch&tbnid=CbleAjlGCINnfM:&imgrefurl=http://clubbrocklesnar.com/&docid=ARRl48r-y8xkxM&imgurl=http://clubbrocklesnar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Lesnar_Couture_pre_1.jpg&w=485&h=598&ei=2s_jT6TKOsnA0QWvgfWNCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=280&vpy=178&dur=7309&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=134&ty=126&sig=105786257944092491168&page=1&tbnh=123&tbnw=100&start=0&ndsp=56&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78
It is my opinion that bane's speed and precog will not be massive factors in this fight for reasons stated. I think in strenght they are close, but where the real gap is in technique where Brock is so far ahead of Bane it's not even funny. Maybe I have undersetimated the benefits of the extent of Bane's superior speed in this matchup, and whether he could use it to somehow throw Brock around before he can think to react... but I think brock honestly takes this.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
A superior wrestler/Jiu-Jitsu guy can defend against a suplex, and are we sure Bane can use force speed while performing such a grappling motion and picking up someone as heavy as Brock Lesnar.
I wasn't aware Brock Lesnar was impossible to throw into a German suplex. He's not a Yokozuna or anything. Hell, he has one inch on me and about forty pounds. Meanwhile, Bane is approaching seven feet tall, all muscle. He's routinely used to excessive lifting with his arms. Also, protip: if you're moving a larger mass at a higher speed, it can produce greater impact. Bane hits Lesnar like a meteor, proceeds to manhandle him in any manner necessary.
Or you know, Brock Lesnar will somehow overcome this huge handicap of greater mass/speed/size by virtue of having amateur wrestling titles and a thick neck. Or maybe it's jeans:
I agree but I'm still not sure that they can use Force Speed to quite the extent with precise movements in close combat ads they can by say running away from droid in a long corridor.
What you mean to say is that Force speed, although an established power by many levels of canon, must somehow be a straight line move only, like a video game special ability, and therefore Brock Lesnar will deflect it off of his thick neck and/or golden jeans.
No.
Well I would post videos but ti's extremely hard to find UFC videos online...
The **** it is. Seanbaby posts half a dozen when the mood strikes him to brag about or hate on UFC fighters. If you refuse to support your assertions, than you're effectively saying your argument has no merit other than as your own god-given opinion. And then I get to say:
No.
but well in his fight with Frank Mir for example he effortlessly took him down at will and stayed on top of him the entire time, and for both fights.
Frank Mir is a benchmark for Darth "I murder time with my bare hands" Bane how?
I;m sure you can at least take my word for it that he's an incredibly skilled wrestler right?
Sure, if you can take my word for it that Bane rapes him like he's the skinny guy in Cell Block D.
Taking a person at their word online, forsooth!
He was an all-american two times in a row, being the champion in one of those years and runner up in the other, he was in the Big Ten Conference two times in a row and in one of those years voted the number 1 heavyweight, and in the wrestling world these credentials are out of this world.
Literally dozens of men have similar qualifications. You haven't demonstrated how Brock Lesnar has fought off beings of greater size operating with metahuman speed and strength who have predictive powers and a known record of keeping rain drops from hitting them with a laser sword.
Or you know, how Brock Lesnar will suddenly mutate into Collosus from the X-Men and win by virtue of having steel skin.
And just look at him, the guy's an absoltue beast: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=brock+lesnar&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=934&tbm=isch&tbnid=CbleAjlGCINnfM:&imgrefurl=http://clubbrocklesnar.com/&docid=ARRl48r-y8xkxM&imgurl=http://clubbrocklesnar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Lesnar_Couture_pre_1.jpg&w=485&h=598&ei=2s_jT6TKOsnA0QWvgfWNCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=280&vpy=178&dur=7309&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=134&ty=126&sig=105786257944092491168&page=1&tbnh=123&tbnw=100&start=0&ndsp=56&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:78
I'm sorry, but Bane's neck looks longer. He wins.
It is my opinion that bane's speed and precog will not be massive factors in this fight for reasons stated. I think in strenght they are close, but where the real gap is in technique where Brock is so far ahead of Bane it's not even funny. Maybe I have undersetimated the benefits of the extent of Bane's superior speed in this matchup, and whether he could use it to somehow throw Brock around before he can think to react... but I think brock honestly takes this.
You are perfectly entitled to have your wrong opinion. What I was seeking was some kind of methodical attempt to prove your assertion.
You failed this greatly. You have three options left to you:
1. Admit you cannot debate objectively. Live in bliss. Repeat your assertions.
2. Admit that you may be wrong, attempt to find sources despite how notoriously unreliable Google search is for anything (even though the IRS uses it to track people down to audit them), and beg for forgiveness.
3. Admit that Bane wins, stop making human fighters go up against Force gods in a poor attempt to expose KMC to your favorite things in life.
Actually, Bane has a lot of experience grappling people almost as big as, and certainly as strong as him, from his time on Apatros. Close quarters bare handed fist fighting where knocking out teeth keeps 2 months pay from you? Grapple them.
Seriously, Bane has height, reach, weight, strength, speed, precog, looks, and practical skills on his side. There is no way he can lose.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I wasn't aware Brock Lesnar was impossible to throw into a German suplex. He's not a Yokozuna or anything.
Against someone with virtually non-existent wrestling/jiu-jitsu skills, someone of Brock's calibre would very likely be able to defend the maneuvre... never midn the strenght disadvantage.
Hell, he has one inch on me and about forty pounds. Meanwhile, Bane is approaching seven feet tall, all muscle. He's routinely used to excessive lifting with his arms.
I already admit that Bane has the strenght advantage probably, so what is you trying to prove?
Also, protip: if you're moving a larger mass at a higher speed, it can produce greater impact. Bane hits Lesnar like a meteor, proceeds to manhandle him in any manner necessary.
I understand this, but you have to prove that Bane is really all that fast. You have not posted evidence of Force users (that bane can call himself the equal of) moving at such superhuman speeds in close combat, and as ares pointed out bane's feat against sirak was the result of having spent the entire fight charging up energy for it.
Or you know, Brock Lesnar will somehow overcome this huge handicap of greater mass/speed/size by virtue of having amateur wrestling titles and a thick neck.
I'm guessing you're not very familiar with the wrestling world so I'll forgive you but what you would realise if followed it is that amateur wrestlers (specifically at the NCAA Division 1 level) are the greatest wrestlers on the planet, and as such thoe credentials carry a lot of weight. The pro circuit is virtually non-existent and msotly fake, the Olympics for example are about on par with the NCAA Division 1 and the reason why you get so many elite wrestlers in MMA is because MMA is the only real avenue for them to take their skill to the next level in a professional environment.
So. I'm afraid those amateur credentials are among the finest credentials you could ask for.
Or maybe it's jeans:
I genuinely lol'd. 😂
What you mean to say is that Force speed, although an established power by many levels of canon, must somehow be a straight line move only, like a video game special ability, and therefore Brock Lesnar will deflect it off of his thick neck and/or golden jeans.No.
How about it time that you establish a few things. establish that Bane could use Force Speed as seen in TPM in a motion that would see him run behind Brock and get into the very precise position of having his back. Do it.
You have not established that Force Speed can be used in close combat anywhere near as effectively as you are assuming it can.
The **** it is. Seanbaby posts half a dozen when the mood strikes him to brag about or hate on UFC fighters. If you refuse to support your assertions, than you're effectively saying your argument has no merit other than as your own god-given opinion. And then I get to say:No.
Believe me bro, I'd be extremely happy if you were right on this, the amount of times I've been driven crazy looking for fights online are too numerous to count. If you know of an easy place to find UFC fights, by all means, post some links. Until then, the best I can do is describe them to you.
Frank Mir is a benchmark for Darth "I murder time with my bare hands" Bane how?
You asked for videos; I summarised one for you.
Sure, if you can take my word for it that Bane rapes him like he's the skinny guy in Cell Block D.Taking a person at their word online, forsooth!
Now you just being silly. By no means do I really have to even psot these videos of brock at all, I've shown you the pictures, I've shown you the credentials, we all know Bane's lack of training and experience int he area. You asked for videos, so the best I can do until I find them is for you to take me at my word.
Literally dozens of men have similar qualifications.
Which is a very elite group, no? In football such a group would consist of the likes of the Messis, Ronaldos, Iniestas, Xavis, Casillases, Sergio Agueros of the world.
You haven't demonstrated how Brock Lesnar has fought off beings of greater size operating with metahuman speed and strength who have predictive powers and a known record of keeping rain drops from hitting them with a laser sword.
He's well practised in Jiu-Jitsu, which is foudned upon idea of using technique to overcome your opponent's superior strength. He's technically extremely proficient in wrestling, which could compensate the stength disadvantage. Predictive powers won;t be as effective when Bane doesn't fully understand what he's doing, or when Brock ahs his hands on him and he can;t do anything to sotp him. Last feat is something that happens two books, and more than 15 years, later.
Or you know, how Brock Lesnar will suddenly mutate into Collosus from the X-Men and win by virtue of having steel skin.I'm sorry, but Bane's neck looks longer. He wins.
I disagree Brock's is clearly bigger.
You are perfectly entitled to have your wrong opinion. What I was seeking was some kind of methodical attempt to prove your assertion.You failed this greatly. You have three options left to you:
1. Admit you cannot debate objectively. Live in bliss. Repeat your assertions.
2. Admit that you may be wrong, attempt to find sources despite how notoriously unreliable Google search is for anything (even though the IRS uses it to track people down to audit them), and beg for forgiveness.
3. Admit that Bane wins, stop making human fighters go up against Force gods in a poor attempt to expose KMC to your favorite things in life. [/B]
lol.
If you don't like thread, do not post in it.
Bane in PoD is by no means a Force God, especially when we take away his Force attacks.
Now how about we focus on what YOU have yet to do:
1. Explain how Bane will compensate for the massive technical gap in wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu, areas that he has virtually no skills in.
2. Establish how his speed or precog will be effective in a grappling match.
3. Prove that his Force Speed will work in a helpful manner and is great as you claim.
The oppression of the Star Wars Fanboys will never return! You, my moose, have lost!
Originally posted by Pwned
[B]Actually, Bane has a lot of experience grappling people almost as big as, and certainly as strong as him, from his time on Apatros. Close quarters bare handed fist fighting where knocking out teeth keeps 2 months pay from you? Grapple them.
This is the kind of argument you'd expect from all those people who were claiming that Kimbo Slice was going to destroy everyone in the UFC, lol. Big difference between unprofessional, drunekn brawls between untrained thugs, and professional martial arts, bro.
Seriously, Bane has height, reach, weight, strength, speed, precog, looks, and practical skills on his side. There is no way he can lose.
Ninja Please.
it's you... 😘
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Ground and pound is where Lesnar has the advantage over most fighters.
It's the takedowns and top control mixed with the ground and pound.
His standup is where he lacks.
And?
Either way, Lesnar gets destroyed. Speed and precog are definitely factors that Brock will never be able to compensate for.
Not in grappling match bro.
Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Against someone with virtually non-existent wrestling/jiu-jitsu skills, someone of Brock's calibre would very likely be able to defend the maneuvre... never midn the strenght disadvantage.[/b]
1. Bane still has size/reach and a massive speed advantage, along with the ability to immediately read into the future and know what Lesnar is doing before he knows himself. I can't think of a better advantage aside from letting Bane have lasers for hands and/or Force powers.
2. You don't have to know wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu to beat people with those skills. That's like saying no one could beat Bruce Lee because his fighting style was unknown at the time.
I already admit that Bane has the strenght advantage probably, so what is you trying to prove?
Did you? I didn't see it.
I understand this, but you have to prove that Bane is really all that fast.
No, no I don't. There's been numerous quotes in this thread alone by other members supporting this. In one instance, he kept a lightsaber going sufficiently fast enough to prevent rainfall from hitting him. I can't think of a single person every to have existed with such speed and precision. Brock Lesnar certainly isn't even close.
You have not posted evidence of Force users (that bane can call himself the equal of) moving at such superhuman speeds in close combat, and as ares pointed out bane's feat against sirak was the result of having spent the entire fight charging up energy for it.
First off, don't argue from ignorance. Even Wookiepedia possesses numerous examples of beyond human speeds. This includes defending, fighting, complex evasive maneuvers, and more. This is further augmented by basic Force precognition. Even untrained, Force users such as Bane and Anakin Skywalker were able to operate on levels normal humans could simply not achieve.
If I have to point that out to you any more, you're completely ignorant of SW lore and you're wasting my time.
Second, see above.
I'm guessing you're not very familiar with the wrestling world so I'll forgive you but what you would realise if followed it is that amateur wrestlers (specifically at the NCAA Division 1 level) are the greatest wrestlers on the planet, and as such thoe credentials carry a lot of weight. The pro circuit is virtually non-existent and msotly fake, the Olympics for example are about on par with the NCAA Division 1 and the reason why you get so many elite wrestlers in MMA is because MMA is the only real avenue for them to take their skill to the next level in a professional environment.So. I'm afraid those amateur credentials are among the finest credentials you could ask for.
... For normal human wrestlers, yes. Bane is not normal human nor a mere wrestler. He's also super humanly fast. Again, what's your point?
How about it time that you establish a few things. establish that Bane could use Force Speed as seen in TPM in a motion that would see him run behind Brock and get into the very precise position of having his back. Do it.
How about you establish how Brock Lesnar can catch a person moving in any direction while moving fast enough to be a virtual blur. Do it.
Don't put the onus on me to establish Force Speed as a viable power simply because you lacked foresight to remove it.
You have not established that Force Speed can be used in close combat anywhere near as effectively as you are assuming it can.
See above.
Believe me bro, I'd be extremely happy if you were right on this, the amount of times I've been driven crazy looking for fights online are too numerous to count. If you know of an easy place to find UFC fights, by all means, post some links. Until then, the best I can do is describe them to you.
So you're asking me to do your own work for you? While you dismiss anything I say out of hand? Suuure. Get right on that.
Now you just being silly. By no means do I really have to even psot these videos of brock at all, I've shown you the pictures, I've shown you the credentials, we all know Bane's lack of training and experience int he area. You asked for videos, so the best I can do until I find them is for you to take me at my word.
1. Lack of experience in a singular style of fighting does not make you incapable of defeating someone in those styles. If anything, people without singular fighting styles are sometimes -more- dangerous because of their unpredictability.
2. Second, Brock Lesnar is not super human. Darth Bane is, and he cannot be objectively considered outside of this realm of "superhuman" because all of his media consists of him being "superhuman". This is the same reason why you can't show me a video or link of Brock Lesnar fighting anyone who has Force powers; because it's outside of their scope. Apples to oranges. The fact is that Lesnar is slower, smaller, and has no precognition. Style or not, belts or not, thick neck and jeans on not, he dies.
Which is a very elite group, no? In football such a group would consist of the likes of the Messis, Ronaldos, Iniestas, Xavis, Casillases, Sergio Agueros of the world.
Boxing Heavyweight champs are fairly elite. Most Jedi or Sith would murder them. Point?
He's well practised in Jiu-Jitsu, which is foudned upon idea of using technique to overcome your opponent's superior strength. He's technically extremely proficient in wrestling, which could compensate the stength disadvantage. Predictive powers won;t be as effective when Bane doesn't fully understand what he's doing, or when Brock ahs his hands on him and he can;t do anything to sotp him. Last feat is something that happens two books, and more than 15 years, later.
This is so silly, I almost don't know where to start.
"Predictive powers won't be effective when Bane doesn't fully understand what he's doing?"
It's not like Brock Lesnar will be attacking Bane with ancient Sumerian writings, ffs. Now you're just attempting to dismiss Bane's advantages with "Brock Lesnar knows teh Jew Jitsu, ergo he winz", which is utter BS.
In MedStar: Battle Surgeons, there's a non-Force using multi-style combat expert named Phow Ji, who is also an insanely talented mercenary to boot. He's like if Rambo and Bruce Lee had a bastard child and sent him into space to conquer. He knows echani, armed combatives, Teras Kasi (which is basically silat) and more. The only Jedi he's ever beaten in fair combat was one who literally... LITERALLY turned off all his Force powers (which was noted as being a completely unique talent to this Jedi). The only one.
Oh, and Jango Fett, universe-renowned bounty hunter and professional killer, barely got away from Obi-Wan, who wasn't even trying to kill him. There's that too.
If you don't like thread, do not post in it.Bane in PoD is by no means a Force God, especially when we take away his Force attacks.
Now how about we focus on what YOU have yet to do:
1. Explain how Bane will compensate for the massive technical gap in wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu, areas that he has virtually no skills in.
2. Establish how his speed or precog will be effective in a grappling match.
3. Prove that his Force Speed will work in a helpful manner and is great as you claim.
The oppression of the Star Wars Fanboys will never return! You, my moose, have lost!
No.
I'm heading to bed pretty soon so I'll get back to you tomorrow Stealth.
Originally posted by Arhael
Brock Lesnar was just a bully with fighting skills gained in an MMA gym without no proper martial art background. He was winning because of his superior strength and stamina. However, ones he was put against another equally big guy with proper martial art skills, he went down pretty quickly.
He had wrestling background, and there is a lot of technique to it. Who are your referring to? Cain? Well Cain was a fellow All-American wrestler, who also has decent stand up skills to boot so, it's no shame that brock lost to him. It's not exactly a mark against his wrestling that he failed to dominate an All-American wrestler with his wrestling, and end up losing the fight to the superior striker. Against Alister he was no longer the athlete he had been as he had just gone through major surgury, and Alister was juiced up. Brock is still best HW wrestler in MMA imo, even better than Cain and Cormier.
