Originally posted by -Pr-
Bullshit.You've tried to use one mention of a nano-second to prove Gladiator fights at nano-second speeds.
Honestly, it's like you don't even try to hide your bias anymore.
@ -Pr-, what about the time in that FF comic when Gladiator was fighting Thor while he was being shifted through time or something to that extent, I have to reread it for clarification, but Gladiator was keeping up to Thor with tech that caused him to move at light speed. Does anyone remember this?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's simple.It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.
Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.
Your actual powerset and feats are.
Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.
CIS off doesn't turn him in to powerset Supes. He still won't use his speed until he has to. He might use it earlier, granted, but he won't off the bat.
Originally posted by Stoic
@ -Pr-, what about the time in that FF comic when Gladiator was fighting Thor while he was being shifted through time or something to that extent, I have to reread it for clarification, but Gladiator was keeping up to Thor with tech that caused him to move at light speed. Does anyone remember this?
Different feat, but yes, there was that time thing.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's simple.It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.
Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.
Your actual powerset and feats are.
Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.
😕
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's simple.It's CIS/PIS by writers who have no choice or are not aware of the implications of particular feats.
Fights by themselves are not indicative of reflexes.
Your actual powerset and feats are.
Sorry, but Hulk does not have a counter for the speed argument. He simply does not, especially here since the strongest argument against the speed argument; 'superman doesn't fight like that in-character', goes out the damn window since CIS Off is specified in the OP.
What about the lack of power that his more consistent levels has shown?
What if he could not hurt a Hulk whose strength has increased far above his own? It's happened with Grundy, and I'm betting that WB had Grundy's best beaten by a good amount.
I think CIS off Superman is scary with that damned super speed. Lets not forget about Superman's exotic feats with his super speed like going intangible. What exactly is Hulk going to do to counter that? Hulk is going to be a very tough punching bag. To be honest I really don't know; HotM Hulk was really, really, really powerful, but what good is all that power if you can't land your hits. I reckon if Hulk somehow manages to nail Supes he might slow him down long enough to work for a win.
Originally posted by -Pr-
CIS off doesn't turn him in to powerset Supes. He still won't use his speed until he has to. He might use it earlier, granted, but he won't off the bat.
This is the problem.
Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.
Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.
Speed is simply innate.
Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.
And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.
Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.
You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.
Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.
It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.
Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.
And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.
Should anyone care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a completely basic strategy ('dodge the guy far slower than you'😉? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
This is the problem.Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.
Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.
Speed is simply innate.
Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.
And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.
Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.
You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.
Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.
It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.
Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.
And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.
Do I care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a basic avenue to win? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
How would that work if Superman will be unable to be physically touched. And he could pretty much dodge all the slow-mo punches coming at him without the need of going intangible.
Ok, you would have to show some hard proof that a thunder clap isn't touching Supes and this could go both ways.
How is Superman even touching Hulk when he will be surrounded by this...
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094189/Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg.html
This OMNI blast will bust him in the face almost immediately which would leave him open for a punch and a punch from Hulk at these levels would cripple Supes. We have already seen how punches from WWH play out against Heralds.
I don't have the proof to say the thunderclap won't work because the exact thing has never been done when he has gone intangible(as far as I can tell anyway) Closest thing to that would be Doomsday's breath attack that failed miserably, but alas it ain't a thunderclap. However I still think a physical assault like a thunderclap would not work. That's just how I see it. You think it will. Whoopedo. Nuking Hulk is a much better stance though. That will be a problem.
Hulk clapping his hands together for a thunder clap would feel like its taking forever--literally it will feel like years to a CIS-Less Superman. Not an option.
As for his aura? Well, Hulk is going to need time to even think about getting angry enough to let it expand.
He's not going to have that time, as he's not going to start off with it.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Hulk clapping his hands together for a thunder clap would feel like its taking forever--literally it will feel like years to a CIS-Less Superman. Not an option.As for his aura? Well, Hulk is going to need time to even think about getting angry enough to let it expand.
He's not going to have that time, as he's not going to start off with it.
This is WBH, he's already mad. That energy is already coming off of him.
Ignore the pre-crisis and cross-over scans, but this video displays what a realistic fight between them would sorta look like.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
I don't have the proof to say the thunderclap won't work because the exact thing has never been done when he has gone intangible(as far as I can tell anyway) Closest thing to that would be Doomsday's breath attack that failed miserably, but alas it ain't a thunderclap. However I still think a physical assault like a thunderclap would not work. That's just how I see it. You think it will. Whoopedo. Nuking Hulk is a much better stance though. That will be a problem.
Superman attacks isn't working either and there is plenty of evidence supporting this.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
YouTube videoIgnore the pre-crisis and cross-over scans, but this video displays what a realistic fight between them would sorta look like.
That ignores everything shown on panel. No need for me to look at it.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
This is the problem.Misconceptions of what powersets means. Speed is part of your powerset yes, but at the same time its something far more basic as well; its just a physical attribute.
Speed/Reflexes is not something esoteric that requires some deliberate thought and planning to use; the way something like a black hole to the brain by Surfer would be.
Speed is simply innate.
Its just like what Philosophia gave as an example in another thread from a couple of months back. A three year old, with as little awareness and knowledge as it would have, still would not be stupid enough to let a slug touch it if it instinctively views the slug as dangerous.
And the difference in speed/reflexes between Superman and Hulk, is, quite frankly, far greater than the speed difference would be between the three year old and the slug.
Seeing as CIS is off, what would cause Superman to get hit, exactly? If CIS was on, you could argue things like 'he'd be curious to test Hulk's strength', or 'he would just take it because he'd be cocky'. But. Of course. That's CIS. And since its off, he's not going to get hit due to some personal choice.
You'd basically have to argue that he's getting hit because he's too abnormally retarded to dodge. Literally, since even something as stupid as a gnat, is not ever going to deliberately allow some human hand to crush it, especially if that human hand is coming in slow.
Anyway, the 'in-character' argument when it comes to speed is always annoyingly trite--especially when it involves some cross-over fight between Superman and some top tier Earth hero from Marvel.
It's vapid and it basically acts as a sentiment based bandage to not upset people who have no counter for genuinely arguable stances like 'Superman blitzes Hulk or Thor 10/10'. That's all it is. And things like 'I don't think X speedster would do this to Y non-speedster' is all it boils down to. No counter-arguments for the speed (seeing as they have none), nothing like that, just expressions of pure sentiment of how they believe it may depicted--no matter how inaccurate.
Its amusing because the simple question of 'Well, if X speedster simply decides not to be an idiot and use his speed like anyone of even completely average intelligence with such a power would do, there is nothing that Y non-speedster can do is there?' That's always what it boils down to, and in the end, there is never a viable, cohesive argument from the Y non-speedster side. Ever.
And that's basically what I'm going to leave here. If Superman does something as completely basic as actually use his speed. There is no argument for a Hulk win, is there? No. There isn't. Because the Hulk is slow enough to be a statue. Superman would basically have to wait for what feels like years to him to see Hulk simply exhale once. That is the perception speed difference.
Should anyone care that forum 'politics' makes saying someone like Superman could beat Hulk 10/10 using a completely basic strategy ('dodge the guy far slower than you'😉? No. Because there is no rule written anywhere that DC and Marvel characters of similar status within their own respective verses, has to be a close fight hypothetically. That's simply arguing with sentiment, based on the feeling that it should be close--for some reason. I don't know, maybe some 'publisher respect' reason or some shit like that.
Why do you always do this? pr1983
In anything other than comics, you might have an argument. As such, you're ignoring things like Superman's willingness to fight fair, his willingness to take a punch so that innocents don't have to, and his general willingness to, as you put it, gauge his opponents strength.
And the patronising "this is why you do x" statements don't help anyone.
Originally posted by carver9
Ok, you would have to show some hard proof that a thunder clap isn't touching Supes and this could go both ways.How is Superman even touching Hulk when he will be surrounded by this...
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8094189/Incredible_Hulks_632_021.jpg.html
This OMNI blast will bust him in the face almost immediately which would leave him open for a punch and a punch from Hulk at these levels would cripple Supes. We have already seen how punches from WWH play out against Heralds.
And you need to just stop talking. You're *this* close to getting banned for your hateful trolling.
Originally posted by carver9
This is WBH, he's already mad. That energy is already coming off of him.
Yes. I know he's WBH mode. But its not something that leaks out without his control.
Seeing as there are scenes where WB Hulk is taking hits from Bi-Beast and the other bricks (tanking them to be sure) in the Dark Dimension, but where was this aura supposedly repelling them away? Surely since he was already in WB mode, they couldn't even be physically close to him yes with this supposed auto-aura?
The gamma aura isn't purely automatic.
Even if it is, its nothing Supes can't power through. It's hardly a supernova powerwise. Not to mention, even if it hurts him intially, Hulk is still immensely too slow to capitalize. Superman will have already recovered to barge in for a second go before Hulk even realizes Superman barged in the first time--hell, before Hulk even has time to blink.
Such is the dilemma of their speed difference; when you're a statue to a guy who can lift any weight that you can, and is at least as durable as you are,can fly, and has ranged attacks and you have no exotic power sets up like Doctor Strange, you're phucked. Completely, phucked.
Sorry. Superman beats Hulk 10/10 in a CIS-Less environment. No argument.
