Health Care Upheld - Welcome to Socialism

Started by Darth Truculent17 pages

Health Care Upheld - Welcome to Socialism

Little more than 2 hours ago, Obamacare was upheld. This blatantly unconstitutional law was passed by activist judges. What they [Democrats] didn't tell you is that now, if you don't get government health care, it's actually a 'tax', medicare and medicaid cut, 500 billion in new taxes just to cover the cost of Obamacare and more than 1 trillion in new spending (yes that's right, you read correctly! That's a lot of money).

Tell me, why should I pay for Johnny's health care? Why should you? Everyone thinks that it's free health care, but there is no such thing as free. Taxes are going to go up, my health insurance where I work is either going to be cut or some covered programs dropped. I hope you enjoy the change you voted for America because officially in my opinion . . . our democracy is dead.

I hear that this new tax cannot be enforced. Is that true?

We have socialism now?

Awesome!

Wait, no, it's just another overreaction...shucks.

http://factcheck.org/2012/06/nrcc-obamacare-taxes-sick-puppies/

Once the Supreme Court approves it the law is Constitutional on account of the Constitution giving them total power in "cases of Law and Equity".

Re: Health Care Upheld - Welcome to Socialism

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I hope you enjoy the change you voted for America because officially in my opinion . . . our democracy is dead.

internally inconsistent

Before it was mandatory that all Americans must buy government health care. Now this 'tax' states that you must buy some form of health care or pay a 'tax' aka a fine of close to $5,000. We have a president who is running around acting like he's king. The justices are on Obama's side so whatever he says it gets done. The only way to get rid of Obamacare is to vote his ass out of office and get the Dems out of the Senate.

It's probably pointless to make an appeal for non-extremist reactions here, huh? I feel like a lot of the backlash was preordained because of the party, and has very little to do with the actual bill. I'm also not biased in this matter. I can separate parties from issues, and didn't really feel strongly about Obamacare one way or another.

Though my favorite bit in all this was the Ned Stark meme popping up with "Brace yourselves. Everyone on Facebook is about to become a Constitutional scholar."

And socialism is very different from what we have now. Our government is a mix of capitalism and socialism, and still errs largely on the side of the former of those. The "Welcome to Socialism" and "RIP Constitution" chants are ignoring the fact that we're dealing with one single aspect of a large, large economic system.

Also, a conservative justice voted for it. So... srug.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Before it was mandatory that all Americans must buy government health care. Now this 'tax' states that you must buy some form of health care or pay a 'tax' aka a fine of close to $5,000. We have a president who is running around acting like he's king. The justices are on Obama's side so whatever he says it gets done. The only way to get rid of Obamacare is to vote his ass out of office and get the Dems out of the Senate.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you.

Edit: This lays out everything in the PPACA quite nicely.

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vb8vs/eli5_what_exactly_is_obamacare_and_what_did_it/c530lfx

What economic system? It is broken and don't blame it on Bush. Sure he made bad decisions, but in 3 1/2 years Obama spent 5 trillion. Rather than fix the economy, he [Obama] wasted time on his lunatic Health Care for a year and half when the economy needed actually stills needs fixing.

Can you answer this question Digi? Do you want to pay for your neighbors kid's health care? I sure as hell don't. I'm not an extremist - it pisses me off that people think that Obama is God's gift to mankind. Look at his policy record.

Also Peach, I don't care what the hell I eat or how many calories a steak or cheeseburger has. It's up to personal responsibility. Would you like someone telling you you're a lush if you have a few drinks here and there? America was based on freedom and limited government. So why should change the very ideals we were founded on?

By the way, love the quote Digi

Read up.

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

Also, it's hard to fix things when Congress goes out of its way to block every single thing he tries proposing, just because they can.

And yeah, actually, I don't mind at all my taxes possibly increasing by a few cents (being as I make well under $200k a year they won't actually go up at all at any point) so that the neighbor's kid can have insurance. I can't think of anything better I'd rather have that money be used for.

Bit of a disconnect there, saying you don't care what you eat and then saying it's all personal responsibility. How is letting people know exactly what is in the food at a restaurant a bad thing? Good lord.

it would be cool if someone edited out the last 3 words of the thread title so that we have a valid topic instead of a non sequitur based tantrum. or not...w/e

Interesting Peach . . . a few cents? Try a hell of a lot more. Do you really think that the money will actually go to Obamacare? Nope. Don't go to left leaning sites where they blindly follow the president. He reminds me of a Sith Lord

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
What economic system? It is broken and don't blame it on Bush. Sure he made bad decisions, but in 3 1/2 years Obama spent 5 trillion. Rather than fix the economy, he [Obama] wasted time on his lunatic Health Care for a year and half when the economy needed actually stills needs fixing.

Can you answer this question Digi? Do you want to pay for your neighbors kid's health care? I sure as hell don't. I'm not an extremist - it pisses me off that people think that Obama is God's gift to mankind. Look at his policy record.

By the way, love the quote

Well, tone down the rhetoric a bit. I'm actually an economic libertarian (or at least a very conservative fiscal policy if not exactly libertarian).

This is the central tension: we want economic freedom, but in such an advanced society, there's a feeling that we should not leave any in abject poverty and unable to enjoy the same rights and privileges. So we strike a balance between economic freedoms and a state in which we support the more unfortunate. Dems tend to downplay how economic freedom equates to personal freedom, while Republicans tend to downplay how most institutions that we support are in some way benefiting the populace, even if all pay into them. So...it's helping people. It's probably not the only way to do it, or the best, but it's also not a horrible affront to humanity.

On to the bill: The primary objection is to one aspect of a bill that includes several dozen other unobjectionable elements. And the problem is apparent: if you don't require people to have healthcare, but require insurance companies to cover various conditions, the health care industry would go bankrupt in a matter of months. Option 2, force everyone to have health insurance period, much like we pay taxes for firemen or police. Option 3, Don't force them to have insurance, give them the choice, but don't require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. In option 1, insurance companies go bankrupt. In option 3, the poor suffer because they will rarely be able to receive coverage.

That's a simplified summary, but shows the basic disagreement. What Obamacare is, is basically a modified option 2.

In my ideal system, for example, I'd give people the choice, not force them to pay anything, but would also subsidize the poor to living wage in order to be able to make those decisions more easily. And I'm not entirely sure that my system wouldn't allow exploitation on the part of the insurance companies. As it is, Obama's solution isn't the worst one, and imo improves on what we had.

...

As for your musings on the economy in general - we're very likely to blame whatever side we're not on. it's a complex system, and I don't think we're in a position to say definitively who is responsible (if it can even be attributed primarily to a President).

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Do you want to pay for your neighbors kid's health care? I sure as hell don't.

you brought this up in another thread, but never replied to people's responses.

Overwhelmingly, it appears you are in the minority on this issue. Most people would heal the sick if they could.

For instance, what would Jesus do?

He reminds me of a Sith Lord

which one exactly?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Interesting Peach . . . a few cents? Try a hell of a lot more. Do you really think that the money will actually go to Obamacare? Nope. Don't go to left leaning sites where they blindly follow the president. He reminds me of a Sith Lord

Taxes will go up by 0.9% only if you make over $200,000 a year, when that goes into effect.

Meaning only about 5% of the nation will see any difference and it will be a tiny amount.

Why not try checking out all of the cited sources in those articles. That, you know, show where the numbers come from. Or, for that matter, try actually reading the articles. The one on spending, for example, straight-out says that they don't think he spent as little as some claim, but also not as much as a lot of the right claims, and their analysis falls between the two.

Originally posted by inimalist
you brought this up in another thread, but never replied to people's responses.

Overwhelmingly, it appears you are in the minority on this issue. Most people would heal the sick if they could.

For instance, what would Jesus do?

My knowledge of the Bible is a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't care if someone couldn't pay and would say to heal them anyway! Then again, Jesus was a pretty big hippie socialist himself 😉

Originally posted by inimalist
you brought this up in another thread, but never replied to people's responses.

Overwhelmingly, it appears you are in the minority on this issue. Most people would heal the sick if they could.

For instance, what would Jesus do?


My roommate was watching Fox news, and there was a talk segment where they had a quasi-Democrat on who asserted that Republicans give more to charity than Democrats do, but that's only because they have higher church-going rates. His conclusion was that Republicans aren't totally opposed to charity, they just trust the Church to redistribute their money more than they trust the government.

Personally I think distrusting your government to the point of crippling it is silly.

Originally posted by Peach
...
Meaning only about 5% of the nation will see any difference and it will be a tiny amount...

Tiny today -> giant tomorrow. I see this all the time.

tiny today -> giant tomorrow. -> 500ft tall monster rampaging throughout tokyo next week.

baseless rhetoric is fun