Health Care Upheld - Welcome to Socialism

Originally posted by Peach
My knowledge of the Bible is a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't care if someone couldn't pay and would say to heal them anyway! Then again, Jesus was a pretty big hippie socialist himself 😉

well, there are different interpretations on that last part (Koresh legitimately used some more esoteric biblical verse to paint Jesus as a warrior, or Liberation Theology seeing him as a violent revolutionary), but for sure, the idea Jesus would have been like "Oh, you don't have money? well, go beg those rich folk, because I got nothing for you" is nonsense. I'm sure he has a line or two about healing the sick.

The point is more that I know DT is a Christian (unless I'm confusing him with someone else), so I'd like to see him reconcile these two stances. Is it Jesus or Objectivist economics. They are, actually by design, mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
My roommate was watching Fox news, and there was a talk segment where they had a quasi-Democrat on who asserted that Republicans give more to charity than Democrats do, but that's only because they have higher church-going rates. His conclusion was that Republicans aren't totally opposed to charity, they just trust the Church to redistribute their money more than they trust the government.

Personally I think distrusting your government to the point of crippling it is silly.

giving to churches is considered giving to charity?

I hear your point, though, I'm not sure I would give them so much credit. I'm not sure they would be doing so because of some reasoned idea of who is more efficient with money, but more that they are taught that one is good and the other is bad. There are certainly more than enough examples of waste in the church.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
tiny today -> giant tomorrow. -> 500ft tall monster rampaging throughout tokyo next week.

baseless rhetoric is fun

help! I'm falling down the slippery slope!!!

focus4chumps, no rhetoric, fact!

500ft monster in tokyo, fact?

Does this mean I have to pay so poor people can have the basics for a better life?

Don't I do this anyways now?

Originally posted by Robtard
Does this mean I have to pay so poor people can have the basics for a better life?

Don't I do this anyways now?

right, but now you have to pay to keep them from dying, so that you have to continue paying for them to live. i think thats the general gripe.

Originally posted by inimalist
giving to churches is considered giving to charity?

Often, yes, especially since many churches use the money to do charity work.

This is one-way. It will never be reversed. There is no feasible scenario where Romney would have the Senate strength to do so, even if he genuinely had the political will to push through the enormous political war that trying to reverse it would take. I don't see anyone ever having that will. And once it is in for a few years, it will just become a permanent part of the establishment. The only way it will ever be changed is to become more social in nature, not less.

(About darn time too)

The Republicans have lost this one, and in the fullness of time future Republicans will support it.

lol, hopefully most of these are a joke:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Often, yes, especially since many churches use the money to do charity work.

sure, but the church doesn't have to set up a specific charitable organization to collect funds? what would happen in the case of an audit, all church expenditures would be considered "charity", even like, new stained glass windows or other such nonsense?

"**** it, I'm moving to Canada!!!11!!" is a common reaction with Americans when something happens that they disagree with. eg G.W. Bush winning his second term.

Isn't Canada more socialist than the US though? Odd comments, if so.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is one-way. It will never be reversed. There is no feasible scenario where Romney would have the Senate strength to do so, even if he genuinely had the political will to push through the enormous political war that trying to reverse it would take. I don't see anyone ever having that will. And once it is in for a few years, it will just become a permanent part of the establishment. The only way it will ever be changed is to become more social in nature, not less.

(About darn time too)

The Republicans have lost this one, and in the fullness of time future Republicans will support it.

I think that a lot of individual Republicans do actually support it, just as most support birth control and very few are actually completely anti-abortion. The GOP itself really does not reflect the views of...well, anyone, other than some politicians.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, hopefully most of these are a joke:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare

sure, but the church doesn't have to set up a specific charitable organization to collect funds? what would happen in the case of an audit, all church expenditures would be considered "charity", even like, new stained glass windows or other such nonsense?

Haha, yeah, I saw that. "Socialized healthcare? I'M MOVING TO CANADA WHERE THEY...wait..."

Originally posted by Peach
I think that a lot of individual Republicans do actually support it, just as most support birth control and very few are actually completely anti-abortion. The GOP itself really does not reflect the views of...well, anyone, other than some politicians.

I am assuming it is still popular sentiment, else Romney's rhetoric against it would not be so strong.

Aside from anything else, I don't think Romney actually has any severe personal issue with it. His opposition is largely tactical.

Romney will say anything so long as it's opposed to what Obama says.

I'm not sure he even has any opinions of his own anymore.

romney has little to nothing to gain by working to repeal it, assuming (god forbid) he's elected. however expect this empty promise to be the theme of his campaign from here on. "saving america from the jaws of communism". its going to get really ugly and really stupid.

Originally posted by Robtard
"**** it, I'm moving to Canada!!!11!!" is a common reaction with Americans when something happens that they disagree with. eg G.W. Bush winning his second term.

Isn't Canada more socialist than the US though? Odd comments, if so.

oh ya, all health insurance in Canada is government run.

We not only pay for our neighbours to get coverage, but for people we have never even met, woooooooooooo!

but ya, that is sort of the point. Canada is essentially a (modestly) functional European socialist nation, with a streak of light conservatism.

Originally posted by inimalist
oh ya, all health insurance in Canada is government run.

We not only pay for our neighbours to get coverage, but for people [b]we have never even met, woooooooooooo!

but ya, that is sort of the point. Canada is essentially a (modestly) functional European socialist nation, with a streak of light conservatism. [/B]

Yeah, I had a derp moment.

To be fair, I agree with it being activist judges.

Thankfully this time they went against their usually activism 😐

I'd also just like to point out, that for the second time, after making the argument:

C'mon guys, you don't really want to pay for your neighbours to be healthy

Mr. Truculent has run off when it was unanimous that, at the very least, we don't actually think it is the end of the world to make people healthy.

As an aside, I just want to share a story of things I'm going through with regard to health, maybe to emphasize why I don't think Obamacare even goes far enough to ensure individual coverage.

Back in January of this year, I started having persistent issues with my digestive tract. We initially thought it was celiac, then when that showed up negative, we thought it was some complication with my diabetes, which it turned out not to be. I've had a colonoscopy, and am currently waiting on the results to see if the next step is medication (if I have Crohn's), diet (unlikely, but if it is celiac or something) or surgery. Over the past 6 months I've had numerous appointments with specialists (endocrinologist and gastro), been in constant contact with my GP, had more blood work than I care to think about done, and have had a few meetings with a nutritionist, in addition to some ER visits at night when there was blood in my stool [fun times for inimalist].

The longest waiting period I've had was a month to see my gastro, and that is only because I was lazy and didn't get blood work done as immediately as I could. The longest delays have been because we were trying to figure out (and still are) what is actually wrong, not due to terrible wait-times [wooooooooo], I tend to have about a week to wait after booking an appointment. I don't have an actual calculation, but for just the colonoscopy alone, if I were in America, iirc, the cost would have been something like $3000. Even if that were covered by insurance (though, before Obamacare, my preexisting diabetes would have disqualified me from insurance), the frequent appointments with my specialists and nutritionist might not have been, and I can imagine they would be prohibitively expensive.

The only costs I've paid so far have been for the laxative I had to take before my colonoscopy and the taxi home from the ER, well under $100. A single $3000 procedure would literally be too expensive for me to pay, and I don't have good enough credit to get a safe loan from a bank. I don't want to sound like I'm whining, but literally, the last 6 months have been Hell, and this is with constant medical attention. This leads me to believe there are people in America with similar problems, who just have to make due, because they will never afford their care. Or if they do get some treatment, they wont have full access to specialists and a team of people working to make them healthy. I've heard stories from friends about poor diabetics in America, who couldn't get insured, who had to go from clinic to clinic essentially begging for sample insulin packs, so they didn't die.

Like, this is not hyperbole: If I were an American, I would probably already be dead.

Ick, I hope you get everything all figured out. And yeah, I can tell all sorts of fun stories about what it's like to be uninsured. My mom (who is on medicaid) only just last month got surgery that she was supposed to have had done back in October. They kept putting off and refusing to schedule it.

Also, something I missed - DT claimed the fines for not buying insurance will be around $5000.

I'm kinda wondering where that came from, as the numbers I've seen for that say it'll start at $95, go up to about $695 by 2016, and there'll be a cap on what the fine will be.

That's kinda not even close to $5000...

Originally posted by Peach

I'm kinda wondering where that came from

With totally non-biased news outlets like Fox saying: "The Supreme Court on Thursday upheld nearly all of President Obama's health care overhaul, in a landmark ruling that will have sweeping consequences for the economy, the election and America's health care system."

It's easy to see where people can get their 'facts' from.

Faux News? Well, that explains it.