Health Care Upheld - Welcome to Socialism

Started by BlackZero30x17 pages
Originally posted by Peach
How is letting people know exactly what is in the food at a restaurant a bad thing? Good lord.

I don't want to but in just felt like speaking about this one point...

Imo that is perfectly fine but people can't blame anyone for choosing to eat unhealthy granted it's not always a choice it's because some people grow up with no money and the $1 menu is cheap I get it. The point is if I want to go out and eat 30,000 burgers(bit of an over exaggeration lol) thats my choice and mine alone so to try and regulate what a person eats is in essence not just unconstitutional but also unethical.

on topic though America was formed because our ancestors wanted to escape England...which the Boston tea party comes to mind...Anyways they came here escaping ridiculous taxation for the sake of freedom. Knowing freedom needed some laws/regulation to ensure people couldn't just go out and murder they formed these laws basically stating that "my freedom ends at the tip of your nose". I bring this up because while I strongly believe people need to have healtcare I disagree how this is being gone about and it seems that dumb taxes is why we ran in the first place....

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Once the Supreme Court approves it the law is Constitutional on account of the Constitution giving them total power in "cases of Law and Equity".

A law that is passed by congress can still be unconstitutional: that's why the system of checks and balances was built into the constitution. That's why the judicial branch exists.

The act of passing a law via congress, however, is constitutional: the law itself may not be.

Edit - I think what you're referring to is an Amendment. The amendments are constitutional changes.

Originally posted by inimalist
Most people would heal the sick if they could.

For instance, what would Jesus do?

haha

This, my friend, is the bane of the American Conservative movement. When your type of objection is framed within the construct of their moral code, "helping those in need" does not seem even remotely as evil as it is being portrayed. 313

A Canadian perspective on America’s ideological civil war over health care

Jonathan Kay

To Canadian eyes, America’s ideological war over health policy — which came to a climax in today’s 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court victory for Obamacare — can appear bizarre. Aside from the United States, every OECD country on earth already has a universal health care system. Why do Americans have to be dragged kicking and screaming into a policy choice that the rest of the civilized world decided long ago was a cornerstone of a humane society?

For me, a clue came earlier this year, when I was in New Hampshire covering the campaign for the Republican presidential nomination.

The most interesting part of that campaign was the town halls, in which candidates were forced to depart from their prepared scripts, and answer questions from ordinary citizens. Many of the questions were about medical issues — and often they were very specific. I remember one Ron Paul event at which a woman detailed the challenges she was facing with her Alzheimer’s-afflicted parent. Another attendee spoke about his kidney problems. They wanted to know what Mr. Paul, the most libertarian candidate, would do to help them with their problems.

Americans think a lot about health care — far more than we Canadians do. Even Americans with insurance often face bewildering paperwork in regard to hospital stays, deductibles, and top-ups from public programs such as Medicare, not to mention the elaborate enlistment process — in which a single false answer sometimes can get you disqualified for coverage after the fact. The complexity of all this can be beyond the comprehension of most Canadians: One (insured) American friend of mine, for instance, had a laundry basket full of financial documents to go through after his child was born with complications. In many cases, the difference between bankruptcy and solvency is the technical difference between one medical condition and another.

But in New Hampshire, Ron Paul didn’t dwell much on these technical differences — even though he is a medical doctor who has delivered thousands of babies in his career. His answer to such questions typically was a variation on a single theme: that the health needs of needy Americans can be met at the local level — through charity hospitals, voluntary collectives, and religious organizations — once the federal government and Obamacare are pushed out of the way. He spoke warmly about his experience with these sort of local arrangements by hearkening back to his days as an obstetrics and gynecology specialist in Texas in the 1960s. Dr. Paul, as he then was known, gave discounts to poor patients. On principle, he refused to take money from Medicaid or Medicare.

Opponents of Obamacare often are depicted as cranky conservatives who simply hate big government. Some are like that. But many aren’t: Like Ron Paul, they are prototypical “can do” American optimists, who believe that no problem is too great or too complex that it cannot be solved at the grass-roots level by independent-minded citizens.

The problem is that, when it comes to health care, they’re wrong. In the early 1960s, when Ron Paul started his medical career, U.S. health care spending as a percentage of GDP was about 5%. Now, it is about 17%. Much of that spending goes toward teams of specialists and capital-intensive high-tech diagnostic equipment that are far beyond the means of the sort of neighborhood health clinics and charities that Ron Paul sentimentalizes. That’s why every Western nation on earth, whatever the specifics of their system, runs health care as a large-scale bureaucracy operated by medical technocrats, with substantial public funding and oversight. (This includes the United States, which, even decades before Obamacare, has run overlapping state and federal programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP, which effectively have pushed the country toward universal health care — albeit in a clumsy, wasteful and fragmented manner.) The massive ideological war over health care in America is essentially a struggle between those who accept the inevitability of this migration toward big-government health care, and those who don’t.

Here in Canada, even conservatives gave up the Ron Paul position decades ago. Yes, we want more private options, and an end to the North Korean-style public monopoly mentality. But not a single mainstream politician in this country demands an end to universal health care. Even back in the day of Tommy Douglas, Canada never had the sort of culture war over universal health care that the United States is now witnessing. The decision to provide care to all citizens was then seen as a policy issue; it did not represent an existential national-identity trauma, as Obamacare has become south of the border.

Canadians lament that they have few national myths. But as the health-care debate shows, an absence of myths makes policy-making easier. In the United States, where the Founding Fathers are treated as secular saints, where many “originalist” judges are trapped in a 1789-era reading of the Constitution, and where conservatives such as Ron Paul still imagine a country of frontier yeomen who can get their health care from neighbours and local well-wishers, Obamacare became a proxy for a larger and more vexing question: Can Americans still afford to entertain 18th-century political reveries when 50-million of their countrymen lack health insurance in the world of 2012?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/06/28/jonathan-kay-a-canadian-perspective-on-americas-ideological-civil-war-over-health-care/

**Tommy Douglas was the politician in Canada who first suggested public health care, and for this he was voted the top Canadian ever by our population

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I don't want to but in just felt like speaking about this one point...

Imo that is perfectly fine but people can't blame anyone for choosing to eat unhealthy granted it's not always a choice it's because some people grow up with no money and the $1 menu is cheap I get it. The point is if I want to go out and eat 30,000 burgers(bit of an over exaggeration lol) thats my choice and mine alone so to try and regulate what a person eats is in essence not just unconstitutional but also unethical.

But...that's not what they're doing at all. They're required to divulge health information. In no way whatsoever are they regulating what people eat. How is this relevant?

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
on topic though America was formed because our ancestors wanted to escape England...which the Boston tea party comes to mind...Anyways they came here escaping ridiculous taxation for the sake of freedom. Knowing freedom needed some laws/regulation to ensure people couldn't just go out and murder they formed these laws basically stating that "my freedom ends at the tip of your nose". I bring this up because while I strongly believe people need to have healtcare I disagree how this is being gone about and it seems that dumb taxes is why we ran in the first place....

Technically it was taxation without representation, and also had to do with religious and personal freedoms, so it's not perfectly analogous to this. Your point about taxation in general may have some merit, but it seems mired in a tangential point.

I'd be all for a smaller government, for example, even in regards to health care. But within the system we have, this isn't a horrible solution. Flawed, perhaps, but certainly not revolution-metaphor-level bad.

Originally posted by inimalist
**Tommy Douglas was the politician in Canada who first suggested public health care, and for this he was voted the top Canadian ever by our population

That would translate to 5th or 6th most best American. Depending on daily rate fluctuations.

Originally posted by dadudemon
haha

This, my friend, is the bane of the American Conservative movement. When your type of objection is framed within the construct of their moral code, "helping those in need" does not seem even remotely as evil as it is being portrayed. 313

idk, I just see it as really strange

like, I'm no bible expert, but in no interpretation of Jesus that I know (including crazy ones like the Moonies or David Koresh) is his focus not on the less fortunate. I think the one constant everyone can agree on about Jesus is that he went to the sick, the poor, etc, and he helped them because it was the right thing to do, not because of personal gain or anything else.

I get, you know, maybe someone can differentiate in their mind, "well, Jesus said this, but our government needs to do that", but I never see that sophistication from the right. Even... I think it was Walker... after someone pointed out to him that Rand was anti-Christian, back tracked from Objectivism to be like "oh ya, Jesus, hes the man, praise God!", though, his economic bill still wreaks havoc on the lower class.

I mean, I suppose what I am trying to say is, if the ideals of Jesus aren't what we should be using to determine our government policy, I want conservatives to admit that. I want them to explicitly say, "yes, this policy is against what our lord and saviour taught, but he never tried to run a nation of 300 million people". I mean, like, obviously I don't support health care for religious reasons, but for people who we know oppose things like gay marriage for religious reasons, I sort of want to see how they would deal with this.

I'd like to imagine he has a big medal that says "Top Canadian Ever" but he never wears it because he's too humble.

Originally posted by Digi
I'd like to imagine he has a big medal that says "Top Canadian Ever" but he never wears it because he's too humble.

But you know he polishes it every day and stands in front of the mirror naked while wearing it saying "oh, yeah, that's right, eh."

Originally posted by Robtard
But you know he polishes it every day and stands in front of the mirror naked while wearing it.

but never when people can see

Naked polishing just took my mind somewhere else. We're done here.

...so. POLITICS!!!

Originally posted by inimalist
but never when people can see

He might "accidentally" leave the curtains open a bit at times.

Originally posted by Digi

...so. POLITICS!!!

My bad. Continue. America now = socialist evil. Go!

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
I don't want to but in just felt like speaking about this one point...

Imo that is perfectly fine but people can't blame anyone for choosing to eat unhealthy granted it's not always a choice it's because some people grow up with no money and the $1 menu is cheap I get it. The point is if I want to go out and eat 30,000 burgers(bit of an over exaggeration lol) thats my choice and mine alone so to try and regulate what a person eats is in essence not just unconstitutional but also unethical.

on topic though America was formed because our ancestors wanted to escape England...which the Boston tea party comes to mind...Anyways they came here escaping ridiculous taxation for the sake of freedom. Knowing freedom needed some laws/regulation to ensure people couldn't just go out and murder they formed these laws basically stating that "my freedom ends at the tip of your nose". I bring this up because while I strongly believe people need to have healtcare I disagree how this is being gone about and it seems that dumb taxes is why we ran in the first place....

No one's saying "you can't eat this". They're saying "This is what's in this food, so you know what you're eating". There's a huge difference there.

And...no. "Escaping ridiculous taxation" is not why people originally came to America. Part of why we became an independent country was because of taxation without representation, but the original colonists coming here was more because of religious freedom. Fun fact - Puritans that originally came to the US did so because they were extremists that were unhappy with the reforms being made by the Church of England.

Originally posted by Robtard
He might "accidentally" leave the curtains open a bit at times.

hes known to "accidentally" leave it in public places just so they have to announce: "Mr Douglas, Mr Tommy Douglas, your 'best Canadian ever' medal has been returned to the lost and found.... again"

or it will nonchalantly fall out of his coat at dinner parties, and he can be all like "how did that get there, eh?"

Originally posted by Digi
Naked polishing just took my mind somewhere else. We're done here.

...so. POLITICS!!!

...nice, Digi.

GOOD JOB 😂

The more time goes by, the less I find in the Republican platform to agree with.

Agreed. It's a little bit of a shame.

The most lulz-worthy to me is that Romney initially supported something very much like Obamacare and, further, Gingrich also proposed a "mandate-style" health care reform because it was a reaction to - at the time - Hillary's plan (whose details I only vaguely remember). It's glaring proof that a huge amount of this is just strategic posturing.

Which isn't to say it doesn't happen on both sides. It does. But the Right Wing has been taken over by religion and extremists, so I can't endorse much these days.

Originally posted by Peach
...nice, Digi.

GOOD JOB 😂

We still dueling this December?

Originally posted by dadudemon
A law that is passed by congress can still be unconstitutional: that's why the system of checks and balances was built into the constitution. That's why the judicial branch exists.

The act of passing a law via congress, however, is constitutional: the law itself may not be.

The body that decides if a law is constitutional or not is the Supreme Court. It is not the people or Ron Paul or even "The Founding Fathers", it is SCOTUS. They're literally in charge of that kind of thing. Once they say a law is constitutional or unconstitutional it is, until they say it is not.

Originally posted by Digi
But...that's not what they're doing at all. They're required to divulge health information. In no way whatsoever are they regulating what people eat. How is this relevant?

Perhaps he's referring to the law in New York that does restrict what restaurants can serve.

Originally posted by Digi
We still dueling this December?

If I'm still here in Chicago?

Hell yeah evillaugh