(Dynasty of Evil) Darth Bane -vs- Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
But that is only in the EU which "up-scales" what they can do in the comcis and cartoons for example to make it more visually interesting. In the movies which is the only things that are G-Canon they push themselves to their limits by lifting stuff like boulders and hovercrafts. Sidious had to jump out of way to avoid spinning saucer from Yoda in RotS for example.

In the [now defunct] Holocron thread on the [equally defunct] Star Wars forums, Leland Chee (keeper of the Holocron) mentioned that there was no discrepancy between film and EU powers; George Lucas mentioned in the commentary of the original Clone Wars series that the TV show depicted the Jedi in their "real" forms. The movies are limited by technology and budget. The ROTS novelization, which Lucas personally line-edited and approved, depicted characters moving at speeds well beyond what we see on screen.

Their powers are clearly broader than what we see and are explored in their more primal form in the supplement works.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Kun's senate freezing trick and amulet blasts puts him above Movie era force users, easy. Nihilus is absolute Force God...

Kun's immobilization of the Senate was done courtesy of a Sith spell, not strict telekinesis or immediately available power. Nihilus's drain is the only thing that separates him from most characters. Otherwise he's fairly flaccid. Not to mention the fact he's not the only Sith to leech on a planetary scale.

It is certainly very impressive, however Bane was losing the overall duel until he had to desperately use the Force.

Kas'im is still many orders of skill beyond the people in the movies though, and this is Yoda in just the first book. He's at least 5 times more powerful by the third.

Who did she beat in sabers then?

Sorra Jax. Plus Ro2 did not have many opportunities to face Jedis in combat.

Both Yoda and Sidious were known to use BM, besides BM helps others in battle, it does not empower the user.

It was Worror that was using it, she was receiving its effects.

Yoda is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat per The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia and has eight centuries to hone his skills. Kas'im's peerless skill is not concrete, but alleged, and by a neophyte Bane. There is no reason to conclude that their skill is comparable.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Can Force Storm not be used? In that case I give all three to Bane.

THIS.

And yeah - check the first page under Things to take into Consideration - I list a few things to be aware of, and one of them is that Sidious can't deploy a Force Storm in this duel at all without killing himself.

So yes, Bane very much does likely take all 3.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
THIS.

And yeah - check the first page under Things to take into Consideration - I list a few things to be aware of, and one of them is that Sidious can't deploy a Force Storm in this duel at all without killing himself.

So yes, Bane very much does likely take all 3.

Not true:

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier

Star Wars Gamer #5
The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Droga to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier Pestage was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body.

Palpatine was able to rend space and transport himself safely across many lightyears (which is what a Force Storm does) in the Death Star's reactor core. Given that he can conjure one with mere thought and inclination per The Essential Guide to the Force, it stands to reason he could do so here and with great effect. Rend space, shove Bane through, he wins.

Mathematically, it's pretty simple: Sidious solos and takes all 3.

/thread

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Yoda is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat per The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia and has eight centuries to hone his skills. Kas'im's peerless skill is not concrete, but alleged, and by a neophyte Bane. There is no reason to conclude that their skill is comparable.

Who only ever uses Ataru (his body size and age make the other forms not veyr ideal for him). Kas'im practises in all 7 constantly and switches them in combat at his liesure. Plus Kas'im mastered sue of two sabers at once and double blade as well, not to mention saber whip. I dont know what you mean, Kasim was the best swordsman of the age and mastered all seven forms and then perfected them and invented new ones, this is all stated by narrator, not bane.

Plus Yoda is also a consular, he probably didn;t actively train with a saber anywhere near as much as a battlemaster would.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Who only ever uses Ataru (his body size and age make the other forms not veyr ideal for him). Kas'im practises in all 7 constantly and switches them in combat at his liesure. Plus Kas'im mastered sue of two sabers at once and double blade as well, not to mention saber whip. I dont know what you mean, Kasim was the best swordsman of the age and mastered all seven forms and then perfected them and invented new ones, this is all stated by narrator, not bane.

Plus Yoda is also a consular, he probably didn;t actively train with a saber anywhere near as much as a battlemaster would.

The narration is third-person limited, meaning that descriptions come from a viewpoint character's perspective. The character in question is Bane. No omniscient source ever accredits Kas'im with the rank of the age's greatest swordsman. Yoda's mastery is confirmed and has had substantially more time to hone his skills than Kas'im.

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Not true:

Palpatine was able to rend space and transport himself safely across many lightyears (which is what a Force Storm does) in the Death Star's reactor core. Given that he can conjure one with mere thought and inclination per The Essential Guide to the Force, it stands to reason he could do so here and with great effect. Rend space, shove Bane through, he wins.

Mathematically, it's pretty simple: Sidious solos and takes all 3.

/thread [/QUOTE]

Storm. Not wormhole.

If he deploys a Force Storm in close proximity to himself - he dies.

If he tries to conjure a Wormhole to escape/etc - Bane guts him.

He's kind of screwed.

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
In the [now defunct] Holocron thread on the [equally defunct] Star Wars forums, Leland Chee (keeper of the Holocron) mentioned that there was no discrepancy between film and EU powers;

if it is defunct then who cares? Wouldn't it be rendered S or even N canon if it no longer has online presence and is not in archive?

George Lucas mentioned in the commentary of the original Clone Wars series that the TV show depicted the Jedi in their "real" forms.

Link please.

The movies are limited by technology and budget. The ROTS novelization, which Lucas personally line-edited and approved, depicted characters moving at speeds well beyond what we see on screen.

Dude, they could have showed bigger feats regardless of technology and budget was certainly not that low that they can't show big tiems being destroyed for example. Slow motion is something that cna be done with zero-budget btw... so speed could have been unlimited.

Their powers are clearly broader than what we see and are explored in their more primal form in the supplement works.

Disagrrd.

Kun's immobilization of the Senate was done courtesy of a Sith spell, not strict telekinesis or immediately available power.

Just because it is sorcery it doesnt mean he can use it. All it took him was just to walk in, and snap his fingersm and everyone froze in pl,ace.

Nihilus's drain is the only thing that separates him from most characters. Otherwise he's fairly flaccid. Not to mention the fact he's not the only Sith to leech on a planetary scale.

Who cares it still makes him planet buster level, PLUS he has amazing TK as well and a bunch of other stuff such as people feeling weak in his presence, he stunned the party that confton him with ease and he pout sion on his ass with lightning and tk combo.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Storm. Not wormhole.

If he deploys a Force Storm in close proximity to himself - he dies.

If he tries to conjure a Wormhole to escape/etc - Bane guts him.

He's kind of screwed.

A Force storm is a wormhole. Sidious opens it up with mere thought an inclination (The Essential Guide to the Force) and transports Bane into a nearby star.

Sidious wins, pretty effortlessly. The math says so.

/thread

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
The narration is third-person limited, meaning that descriptions come from a viewpoint character's perspective. The character in question is Bane. No omniscient source ever accredits Kas'im with the rank of the age's greatest swordsman. Yoda's mastery is confirmed and has had substantially more time to hone his skills than Kas'im.

Nope it is directly from the writer it is not Bane who says/thinks it he is busy in duel at the time and writers tells us it while they are fighting.

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
A Force storm is a wormhole. Sidious opens it up with mere thought an inclination (The Essential Guide to the Force) and transports Bane into a nearby star.

Sidious wins, pretty effortlessly. The math says so.

/thread

They're roughly the same Power - but with two distinct aspects to them, hence their being divided into two elements.

Also, if Sidious can just use a Wormhole to kill someone just like that, and without danger to himself - why didn't he use a Wormhole all those times he was being offed by No-talent Force sensitives/non-Force sensitives and why didn't he use it when he was in danger of being killed by Luke?

The truth is - Bane can kill Plagueis and he can kill DE Luke.

Bane wins - albeit after a hellish fight.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
if it is defunct then who cares? Wouldn't it be rendered S or even N canon if it no longer has online presence and is not in archive?

Chee is the continuity coordinator who regularly issues proclamations over continuity snafus. His decrees stand.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Link please.

Sorry, I don't own the Star Wars: Clone Wars DVDs.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Dude, they could have showed bigger feats regardless of technology and budget was certainly not that low that they can't show big tiems being destroyed for example. Slow motion is something that cna be done with zero-budget btw... so speed could have been unlimited.

Nah, Lucas is willing to sacrifice choreography for artistic vision: compare Palpatine's performance against Windu to his performance against Yoda when he moves at visibly superior speeds (because he was being portrayed by a stuntman). The fact that we don't see superhuman speeds depicted in the movies doesn't mean that the characters don't move at such speeds, especially since Lucas-approved and reviewed supplementary material and the likes of Leland Chee confirm it to be true.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Just because it is sorcery it doesnt mean he can use it. All it took him was just to walk in, and snap his fingersm and everyone froze in pl,ace.

Which was likely performed with preparation beforehand.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Who cares it still makes him planet buster level, PLUS he has amazing TK as well and a bunch of other stuff such as people feeling weak in his presence, he stunned the party that confton him with ease and he pout sion on his ass with lightning and tk combo.

In cut-content, which is completely non-canon. Nihilus's amazing telekinesis has not been featured visually or otherwise, only hinted at from certain (dubious) sources without context.

I christen thee... Nick! After the talented swordsman and one of the nicest coworkers I've ever had. 😄

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Nope it is directly from the writer it is not Bane who says/thinks it he is busy in duel at the time and writers tells us it while they are fighting.

Nope. The Bane novels, like most others, are written in third person limited point of view. Descriptions and observations come from the viewpoint characters, which happens to be Bane.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
hey're roughly the same Power - but with two distinct aspects to them, hence their being divided into two elements.

This is fanon. A Force Storm is a hyperspace wormhole according to all the relevant source material; it's one ability.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Also, if Sidious can just use a Wormhole to kill someone just like that, and without danger to himself - why didn't he use a Wormhole all those times he was being offed by No-talent Force sensitives/non-Force sensitives and why didn't he use it when he was in danger of being killed by Luke?

Because he was destroying the New Republic's fleet out of spite and was functionally immortal, he had no reason to fear Luke. As far as his death at the hands of Han Solo, he needed to shed his mortal coil to possess Anakin. Solo shooting him played into his hands.

Again, the math prevails. Sidious wins all 3.

/thread

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Chee is the continuity coordinator who regularly issues proclamations over continuity snafus. His decrees stand.

But nobody can even be sure he said it.

Sorry, I don't own the Star Wars: Clone Wars DVDs.

I have signed copy from Liam Neeson and i never came across it.

Nah, Lucas is willing to sacrifice choreography for artistic vision: compare Palpatine's performance against Windu to his performance against Yoda when he moves at visibly superior speeds (because he was being portrayed by a stuntman).

There is simple reason for this: Sidious was going easy on Mace so he could use him to turn Anakin to the darkside. No other explanation makes sense.

The fact that we don't see superhuman speeds depicted in the movies doesn't mean that the characters don't move at such speeds, especially since Lucas-approved and reviewed supplementary material and the likes of Leland Chee confirm it to be true.

The thing is we do. When Obi-wan and Qui-Gon use force speed in tpm and yoda obviously moves with superhuman agility. But the point is they pick and choose where they show this to illustrate that yoda is rare example, and that force speed only reakly worlks liokle that in straight lines, and cant be sued in duels.

Which was likely performed with preparation beforehand.

You could sya that about anything bro.

In cut-content, which is completely non-canon.

Not true they managed to restore all the cut content and Bioware not only support the project but actually helped them by giving them some of the unused voice and video files.

Nihilus's amazing telekinesis has not been featured visually or otherwise, only hinted at from certain (dubious) sources without context.

We see flashback in one of the cut content mods actually.

Not true man when bane or one of the characters thinks something it is directly stated, the rest is coming from the writer aka the omniscient narrator. I do right screenplays you know bro.

Darth Ray Park
But nobody can even be sure he said it.

True, let's see if we can get him to comment on the issue.

Darth Ray Park
I have signed copy from Liam Neeson and i never came across it.

The microseries, not the current series that featured Neeson.

Darth Ray Park
There is simple reason for this: Sidious was going easy on Mace so he could use him to turn Anakin to the darkside. No other explanation makes sense.

Of course it does, the one I provided: Lucas is limited in time, budget, and artistic constraints. The novels, comics, and animated series don't have quite as many limitations. Hence why we see common troopers hold their own against Sith Lords like Darth Malgus in The Old Republic videos despite the fact that, as a high level Sith Lord, Malgus should move at speeds vastly superior to what we see. Or in the original trilogy, where Vader and Obi-Wan move like octogenarians with severe hip dysplasia. Such limitations must be taken into account when supplement material support the idea that they are much more formidable than otherwise depicted.

Darth Ray Park
The thing is we do. When Obi-wan and Qui-Gon use force speed in tpm and yoda obviously moves with superhuman agility. But the point is they pick and choose where they show this to illustrate that yoda is rare example, and that force speed only reakly worlks liokle that in straight lines, and cant be sued in duels.

Yoda and Sidious never move at such speeds; by your reckoning, TPM!Obi-Wan must be faster. Or, more likely, Lucas was offering us a mere glimpse into how quickly Jedi typically maneuver.

Darth Ray Park
You could sya that about anything bro.

About Sith spells? Of course.

Darth Ray Park
Not true they managed to restore all the cut content and Bioware not only support the project but actually helped them by giving them some of the unused voice and video files.

Darth Ray Park
We see flashback in one of the cut content mods actually.

Keywords: unused, cut content.

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
Not true man when bane or one of the characters thinks something it is directly stated, the rest is coming from the writer aka the omniscient narrator. I do right screenplays you know bro.

Not true, bro.
There is, with few exceptions (such as The Revenge of the Sith), no such thing as an omniscient narrator in Star Wars novels. They're written with third person limited viewpoint.

Sorry, bro. 😬

Anyway, this will be my final post on the subject until someone posts anything interesting/with merit. Otherwise, the outcome is black and white, cut and dry: Sidious wins all three. The math can't be ignored.

/thread