(Dynasty of Evil) Darth Bane -vs- Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)

Keywords: unused, cut content.

Only because they didn't have time to out it in, it was always supposed to be in there and the scenes and dialogues themselevs exist, and as i said they approve and endorse the resotraiton mod.

About Sith spells? Of course.

Not just spells there are even examples of tk being charged up for example, e.g. when bane destroyed the temple in his battle with kas'im. fact is you can just speculate they anything we see from a force user could have been being charged up unless its directly stated otherwise. At the end of the day we have to agree to just tske it for what we see them do. All we see exar do is walk into the room and freeze everyone, and nothing states that he had to prepare it.

Yoda and Sidious never move at such speeds; by your reckoning, TPM!Obi-Wan must be faster. Or, more likely, Lucas was offering us a mere glimpse into how quickly Jedi typically maneuver.

Its not that they are faster its that force speed like that clearly only works in long straight lines, and they dont have the control of precision to do it in small scale.

Of course it does, the one I provided: Lucas is limited in time, budget, and artistic constraints. The novels, comics, and animated series don't have quite as many limitations. Hence why we see common troopers hold their own against Sith Lords like Darth Malgus in The Old Republic videos despite the fact that, as a high level Sith Lord, Malgus should move at speeds vastly superior to what we see. Or in the original trilogy, where Vader and Obi-Wan move like octogenarians with severe hip dysplasia. Such limitations must be taken into account when supplement material support the idea that they are much more formidable than otherwise depicted.

But money or tech is not an issue it really doesn't take much to show what youred escribing and fact si that we do see it in some parts. lucas simply chose not to include it in the mace palps duel.

Can we at least agree on this point Darth:

"
Not just spells there are even examples of tk being charged up for example, e.g. when bane destroyed the temple in his battle with kas'im. fact is you can just speculate they anything we see from a force user could have been being charged up unless its directly stated otherwise. At the end of the day we have to agree to just tske it for what we see them do. All we see exar do is walk into the room and freeze everyone, and nothing states that he had to prepare it."

If we start question if people are just preparing stuff beforehand where does it end?

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
This is fanon. A Force Storm is a hyperspace wormhole according to all the relevant source material; it's one ability.

Yeah, I agree. One ability, with two functions - hence Palpatine casting a Wormhole on Luke to transport him - and not ripping him into pieces in the process.

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier

Because he was destroying the New Republic's fleet out of spite and was functionally immortal, he had no reason to fear Luke. As far as his death at the hands of Han Solo, he needed to shed his mortal coil to possess Anakin. Solo shooting him played into his hands.

Again, the math prevails. Sidious wins all 3.

/thread

I haven't seen anything to prove he can replicate the speed and precision of Bane's Rain-feat in Dynasty.

And Sidious's top TK feats were seen in Revenge of the Sith as I recall - so going by those, he's still pretty much even with Bane in Force Usage.

So, Bane rapes him in sabers, and is able to defend himself with the Force.

Also, do you any proof that Sidious can spring a Force Wormhole without getting himself killed in the process?

Just have to say on the subject of Bane's saber ability: Kas'im was the Sith blademaster, knowledgeable of all forms, training constantly in them and renowned to the extent that he was responsible for training only those Sith who would be worthy of becoming lords one day. I really don't see why there is a question as to his ability.

As to Raskta Lsu, she is basically described as death incarnate on the battlefield. No Sith who had ever met her in combat survived and she was from a race/culture that valued combat skills above all else. She was Weapons Master of the Jedi Order and a master of all saber forms (parallel to Kas'im anyone?) and the only one of the Jedi dispatched to deal with Bane who was able to handle him one on one, albeit amplified by Battle Meditation, until Zannah took care of that. The novel states that the other Jedi considered no one else to be her equal in combat.

So, clearly Bane was capable of matching two of the greatest duelists of the Jedi Civil War, the first of which took place without his Orbelisk armor. I'd say holding your own against swordsmiths who were constantly at war for years with other capable Force users gives you some credibility. Not sure why people try and downplay what he did like he was some gump with no blade skills.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Just have to say on the subject of Bane's saber ability: Kas'im was the Sith blademaster, knowledgeable of all forms, training constantly in them and renowned to the extent that he was responsible for training only those Sith who would be worthy of becoming lords one day. I really don't see why there is a question as to his ability.

As to Raskta Lsu, she is basically described as death incarnate on the battlefield. No Sith who had ever met her in combat survived and she was from a race/culture that valued combat skills above all else. She was Weapons Master of the Jedi Order (parallel to Kas'im anyone?) and the only one of the Jedi dispatched to deal with Bane who was able to handle him one on one, until Zannah took care of that. The novel states that the other Jedi considered no one else to be her equal in combat.

So, clearly Bane was capable of matching two of the greatest duelists of the Jedi Civil War, the first of which took place without his Orbelisk armor. I'd say holding your own against swordsmiths who were constantly at war for years with other capable Force users gives you some credibility. Not sure why people try and downplay what he did like he was some gump with no blade skills.

They do that, in addition to over-hyping DE Sidious's RotS-esque abilities, and trying to pretend somehow he'll be able to beat Bane without getting stomped.

I think the only advantage Palpatine has this time, is that he's in a youthful body.

Other than that, it's Sidious Gets Curb-stomped 2.0

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I haven't seen anything to prove he can replicate the speed and precision of Bane's Rain-feat in Dynasty.

Palpatine leaped a pretty good distance and slaughtered two jedi masters before they could react. When has Bane shown that kind of speed in an actual duel?

Ascendancy
Just have to say on the subject of Bane's saber ability: Kas'im was the Sith blademaster, knowledgeable of all forms, training constantly in them and renowned to the extent that he was responsible for training only those Sith who would be worthy of becoming lords one day. I really don't see why there is a question as to his ability.

Path of Destruction
Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

Setting aside the fact that this was written from Bane's perspective which makes its conclusions suspect by default, it exudes hyperbole—if Kas'im were a perfect weapon, how could he be defeated by Bane? How does Bane know that Kas'im had trained his entire life for this particular duel? How does Bane, who has never dueled Jedi prior to this point, know that Kas'im's ability outstrips every other Force user and swordsman in the galaxy?

Additionally, if Bane's observations are accurate, then Kas'im had only been honing his skill for mere decades. In contrast, Yoda had the better part of eight centuries to refine his swordsmanship. If passage of time factors in so strongly, then Yoda's dueling technique must eclipse Kas'im's by several orders of magnitude.

Moreover, Kas'im's position as blademaster doesn't authenticate Bane's assessment of his abilities. Otherwise we must extend similar consideration to the likes of Cin Drallig, Anoon Bondara, and Kyle Katarn, who—for all their skill—are outstripped by certain contemporaries.

Ascendancy
As to Raskta Lsu, she is basically described as death incarnate on the battlefield. No Sith who had ever met her in combat survived and she was from a race/culture that valued combat skills above all else. She was Weapons Master of the Jedi Order and a master of all saber forms (parallel to Kas'im anyone?) and the only one of the Jedi dispatched to deal with Bane who was able to handle him one on one, albeit amplified by Battle Meditation, until Zannah took care of that. The novel states that the other Jedi considered no one else to be her equal in combat.

Similar praise has been handed out in copious amounts to the likes of Bondara, Tiin, Kolar, Fisto, Maul, and others. Lsu, like Kas'im, is undoubtedly a masterly duelist, but nothing you've provided indicates that they're of an equal or better caliber than Palpatine's enemies or Palpatine himself.

Ascendancy
So, clearly Bane was capable of matching two of the greatest duelists of the Jedi Civil War, the first of which took place without his Orbelisk armor. I'd say holding your own against swordsmiths who were constantly at war for years with other capable Force users gives you some credibility. Not sure why people try and downplay what he did like he was some gump with no blade skills.

This is a strawman; no one has suggested this to be the case. Palpatine simply enjoys an advantage in speed, reflexes, and Force power. Bane can't defeat him in any respect, especially without orbalisks to aid him.

The math is conclusive. Sidious wins all three. 😎

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier
Setting aside the fact that this was written from Bane's perspective which makes its conclusions suspect by default, it exudes hyperbole—if Kas'im were a perfect weapon, how could he be defeated by Bane?

It's what happens when the perfect weapon meets the perfect weapon of mass destruction.

"Kas'im could protect himself from the blast, but he couldn't protect the temple walls around him"

Originally posted by Darth Ray Park
It's what happens when the perfect weapon meets the perfect weapon of mass destruction.

"Kas'im could protect himself from the blast, but he couldn't protect the temple walls around him"

A perfect weapon would be able to defeat a lesser weapon in combat. But he didn't.

Negative, Ghost Rider. The book states multiple times Kas'im's abilities and not just from Bane's perspective. Those Jedi you mentioned do not parallel Kas'im because again, he was devoted only to training those who might one day be capable of becoming Masters, not just any Sith.

As well, Lsu's ability in actual combat does speak volumes to what she is capable of. Do you base Yoda's ability on 800 years of training, or what he did when actually facing down other duelists?

I've yet to see a thread where conclusive evidence is shown that Palp is a match for Bane in speed or reflexes. Up until the last battle of his life Bane acts so quickly that at time his movements can't even be followed. He manages to defeat Zannah even without his saber.

As to Force power whatever is said about Sidious' ability in the handbooks, it's clear from descriptions of Bane's lightning and other feats that they are pretty evenly matched.

Sabers: Bane
Force: I'll weigh in when I see more arguments. Sidious has his Force Storm, etc, Bane has the thought bomb. Both know how to transfer their essence into another's body.
All out: I'll wait to pass judgement on this as well, but for now I give the edge to Bane.

Your math, like your Kung Fu, is weak.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine leaped a pretty good distance and slaughtered two jedi masters before they could react. When has Bane shown that kind of speed in an actual duel?

[/quote]Your math, like your Kung Fu, is weak.[/quote]

😆

Upvoted Bane all three choices.

/thread.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The book states multiple times Kas'im's abilities and not just from Bane's perspective.

I'll reiterate: the book is written in third person limited viewpoint—there is no omniscient narrator, information comes solely from specific characters' perspectives. Please provide these excerpts and explain why they are warrant my attention.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Those Jedi you mentioned do not parallel Kas'im because again, he was devoted only to training those who might one day be capable of becoming Masters, not just any Sith.

Irrelevant. He still had to train them from scratch; their higher potential has no bearing on his skills.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As well, Lsu's ability in actual combat does speak volumes to what she is capable of. Do you base Yoda's ability on 800 years of training, or what he did when actually facing down other duelists?

If passage of time is so important, Yoda's skill logically transcends Kas'im's and Lsu's skills combined by a tremendous margin.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I've yet to see a thread where conclusive evidence is shown that Palp is a match for Bane in speed or reflexes. Up until the last battle of his life Bane acts so quickly that at time his movements can't even be followed. He manages to defeat Zannah even without his saber.

I'm wholly uninterested in what you see, I'm only interested in what you prove. If the quality of your argument matches your quality of sight, I expect to be completely underwhelmed.

Palpatine has wielded a lightsaber beyond what could be perceived by Darth Maul (Star Wars: Episode I Journals: Darth Maul) and two of the order's most "celebrated swordmasters" (The Complete Visual Dictionary) in Revenge of the Sith, not to mention Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As to Force power whatever is said about Sidious' ability in the handbooks, it's clear from descriptions of Bane's lightning and other feats that they are pretty evenly matched.

Not at all. Sidious is already more powerful than Bane (per The Dark Side Sourcebook and The Complete Visual Dictionary) as of the prequel trilogy. As of Dark Empire, Palpatine has disintegrated dark side acolytes (Star Wars Tales 9: Resurrection), reduced giant Sith wyrms to ash (Sithisis), killed Jedi Knights with single gouts of lightning (Empire's End), used the Force to erase the memory of Coruscant's populace during the burial of a Super Star Destroyer (The New Essential Guide to Characters), enslaved and drained ~20 billion citizens on the planet Byss entirely through the Force (Byss and the Deep Core), tanked explosions that obliterated observation towers and reduced stormtroopers to ash (The Force Unleashed), etc. and so forth. But most importantly, Sidious can just open a Force storm and hurl Bane into the depths of space.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Sabers: Bane

Palpatine's too fast for Bane to prevail here.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Force: I'll weigh in when I see more arguments.

We've already addressed your myopic vision; the arguments are there, you've merely ignored them.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Sidious has his Force Storm, etc, Bane has the thought bomb. Both know how to transfer their essence into another's body.

Bane has only ever constructed the Thought Bomb with the aid of dozens of Sith Masters. Have you actually read the book?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
All out: I'll wait to pass judgement on this as well, but for now I give the edge to Bane.

What a startling development.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Your math, like your Kung Fu, is weak.

You've demonstrated an aptitude for observation that Helen Keller would find amusing. Come back when you have an argument, child.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
How foes did Bane fight when they had no weapons drawn?

What?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The one who comes to mind of the top of my head, Quoordis, he slaughtered like a chicken effortlessly.

Still doesn't compare to Palpatine slaughtering two "celebrated swordsmasters" before they could react, then slaughtering another seconds later, and then proceeding to force Windu back.

Originally posted by Darth_Sexier

If passage of time is so important, Yoda's skill logically transcends Kas'im's and Lsu's skills combined by a tremendous margin.

As to speed, citing your examples I see nothing that shows Palpatine to be beyond Bane. Palp fought Yoda to the point that one felt the need to end the duel, but never killed him. Windu would have killed him if it weren't for Anakin's betrayal.

Bane took two of the greatest sword masters of his time, however you want to try and spin it otherwise.

As to the child bit, don't be an ass. I'm fine with joking around but it's clear you have some kind of complex that makes you feel the need to try and belittle others. If you are of worth you'll let your arguments speak for you, but it's cool if you're incapable of that. I'd say your statements speak to your own immaturity much more than they do mine.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
My statement is that the time is unessential, it is the ability displayed in actual combat that matters.

Then Kas'im is entirely unremarkable.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As to speed, citing your examples I see nothing that shows Palpatine to be beyond Bane.

If I may be pardoned the vanity of quoting myself:

Me
We've already addressed your myopic vision; the arguments are there, you've merely ignored them.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Palp fought Yoda to the point that one felt the need to end the duel, but never killed him. Windu would have killed him if it weren't for Anakin's betrayal.

Given that Yoda is well beyond any opponent Bane faced, this isn't a mark against Sidious.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Bane took two of the greatest sword masters of his time, however you want to try and spin it otherwise.

So did Sidious. Except his opponents existed in "the golden age of the Jedi" (per Lucas), which makes it much more impressive.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As to the child bit, don't be an ass. I'm fine with joking around but it's clear you have some kind of complex that makes you feel the need to try and belittle others. If you are of worth you'll let your arguments speak for you, but it's cool if you're incapable of that. I'd say your statements speak to your own immaturity much more than they do mine.

Relax, sweetheart, this is just rough sex—not rape.

Spoiler:
I was joking.

Actually Darth, while I agree Sidious wins in the Force/All-Out (due to the Force) department, he is no match for Bane in sabers.

The few jedi that Sidious killed in his office (3 of the best, and Windu had him beat) do not hold a candle to the maelstrom that is Bane. The rain feat alone means that Sidious is never going to touch him. Combine that with Bane's mastery of the 7 forms, his extreme physical strength, and wonderful swordsmanship, Sidious can't win. He can try, but "Do, or do not. No try"

oh, and LULz at Thought Bomb. That took around 100-200 Sith to make, and Bane was nowhere near it.

Reread the OP, Sidious apparently can not use his uber Storm OR the wormhole. Both are explicitly mentioned along with, "Can not"

Wormhole says, "Without exposing himself to much risk" but thats a moot point, because "much risk" is death at this caliber.

Pwned
Actually Darth, while I agree Sidious wins in the Force/All-Out (due to the Force) department, he is no match for Bane in sabers.

The few jedi that Sidious killed in his office (3 of the best, and Windu had him beat) do not hold a candle to the maelstrom that is Bane. The rain feat alone means that Sidious is never going to touch him. Combine that with Bane's mastery of the 7 forms, his extreme physical strength, and wonderful swordsmanship, Sidious can't win. He can try, but "Do, or do not. No try"

Palpatine's speed feats outstrip Bane's own. Even if Bane has an advantage in skill, he's too slow to adequately defend himself.

Pwned
Reread the OP, Sidious apparently can not use his uber Storm OR the wormhole. Both are explicitly mentioned along with, "Can not"

Wormhole says, "Without exposing himself to much risk" but thats a moot point, because "much risk" is death at this caliber.

Those aren't fight conditions, otherwise the second consideration is redundant. Those are merely what Battlemaster believes to be the case about his powers and wants posters to consider them in the hope that will convince them to vote for Banebefore they decide.

Star Wars Gamer #5 indicates otherwise. Sidious can loose a Force storm on the fly, hurl Bane into the depths of space, and if need be, transport himself safely through it.

Interesting, poll is a dead tie. I will have to remind BM to do something about that...

Originally posted by Pwned
The few jedi that Sidious killed in his office (3 of the best, and Windu had him beat) do not hold a candle to the maelstrom that is Bane. The rain feat alone means that Sidious is never going to touch him. Combine that with Bane's mastery of the 7 forms, his extreme physical strength, and wonderful swordsmanship, Sidious can't win. He can try, but "Do, or do not. No try"

Kolar and Tiin can each block dozens of blaster bolts but could not react to Palpatine at all. Stop using Bane's rainstorm feat as a way of saying he can't be touched. Bane has never employed the kind of speed that Sidious has in an actual duel.