Would you date a insecure hot babe?

Originally posted by inimalist
jealousy and insecurity are not the same thing, nor is possessiveness, nor is narcissism.

what you have described is almost certainly not the action of an insecure individual, because that level of direct aggressiveness requires a level of self-confidence that is, by definition, not present in insecure individuals.

You seem quite knowledgeable. I'd love if you could point me to some studies that show that they aren't interconnected traits. I could see a person being insecure but not jealous or at leas the possibility that they are so insecure that they are able to express those jealousies or any valid feelings of being wronged, but no way in which a person who demonstrates unhealthy jealousy could lack insecurities about him or herself.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
You seem quite knowledgeable. I'd love if you could point me to some studies that show that they aren't interconnected traits. I could see a person being insecure but not jealous or at leas the possibility that they are so insecure that they are able to express those jealousies or any valid feelings of being wronged, but no way in which a person who demonstrates unhealthy jealousy could lack insecurities about him or herself.

jealousy can come from entitlement, the over estimation of one's worth, the opposite of insecurity.

if you are really interested in studies, PubMed is awesome, I'm just talking about ontology or definition, and frankly, I don't like "trait based" personality theories anyways, so I'm not going to put much effort into defending them... 😐

EDIT: I'm also not saying they aren't interconnected, simply that things are a little more complex than "person X acts jealous/possessive/aggressive/entitled, therefore person X is insecure". It is a possibility, sure, not a necessity. And given the description by C-big-C, insecurity is almost certainly not this girl's issue. It could be, of course, but it would be a very aberrant case, as insecure people are rarely so directly aggressive.

Again, I don't support this type of "trait labeling" in the first place, but certainly, a brief description by an obviously biased source on the internet is no where near enough to make an actual claim.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
I had this chick who was so insecure it was ****ing ridiculous. she wanted to be on the phone 24/7 literally. when i try to say im going to call her back because im busy(just an excuse) after being on the phone for [b]hours she gets frustrated. when she calls and i missed it(because im at work and my phone on silent) when i finally check my phone i see she had called over 20 times. she either does that or pops up at my job.

One time i made a mistake and left phone around her and she called my mother and cursed at her and called her a b*tch , because she though it was a girl texting me (because my mom calls me baby).

I left her and this stupid whore still thinks were together. [/B]

Originally posted by inimalist
jealousy can come from entitlement, the over estimation of one's worth, the opposite of insecurity.

if you are really interested in studies, PubMed is awesome, I'm just talking about ontology or definition, and frankly, I don't like "trait based" personality theories anyways, so I'm not going to put much effort into defending them... 😐

EDIT: I'm also not saying they aren't interconnected, simply that things are a little more complex than "person X acts jealous/possessive/aggressive/entitled, therefore person X is insecure". It is a possibility, sure, not a necessity. And given the description by C-big-C, insecurity is almost certainly not this girl's issue. It could be, of course, but it would be a very aberrant case, as insecure people are rarely so directly aggressive.

Again, I don't support this type of "trait labeling" in the first place, but certainly, a brief description by an obviously biased source on the internet is no where near enough to make an actual claim.

Excellent. The matter is crystalline once more.

Originally posted by inimalist
An insecure person would be much more passive aggressive, not likely to show up at your work.

There are many different types of "insecure". An insecure person would most certainly drive to their boyfriend's place of employment to see why they did not answer. Sounds like a control issue, right?

A person feeling out of control and searching for the hold on control again is...what? Insecure? I think so.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'd say some type of behavioural control issues, maybe some obsessiveness, maybe a conduct disorder. Hard to net-psych someone from such a poor description, but not what I would call insecure at all.

A "classic" almost archetypal characteristic of insecurity is a lack of trust: trusting themselves or others. Her inability to feel secure about the relationship when he did not answer for 20 minutes is a definitive sign that there is a security issue. No "pop-internet psy" necessary to see that. Very typical of an insecure person is how controlling they are. It is irritating.

However, you are right: we do not know the whole story. But based on the story...yeah...the lady was insecure and controlling. Crazy, too.

Originally posted by inimalist
what you have described is almost certainly not the action of an insecure individual, because that level of direct aggressiveness requires a level of self-confidence that is, by definition, not present in insecure individuals.

That's...not true...

Aggression is sometimes the result of insecurity.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=insecurity+and+aggression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=7lDzT5vgMKrO2AWUp4CyAw&ved=0CFcQgQMwAA

In this case, she seems to be a very insecure person. An insecure person is certainly does exhibit antisocial behaviors and isolates themselves, but that is not the same thing as a 'withdrawn' person: that is a specific type of insecure that is not at all representative of all the different "flavors" of "insecure" out there.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There are many different types of "insecure". An insecure person would most certainly drive to their boyfriend's place of employment to see why they did not answer. Sounds like a control issue, right?

A person feeling out of control and searching for the hold on control again is...what? Insecure? I think so.

I, nor would actual control theorists, wouldn't call "loss of control" the same as "insecurity". Certainly not without a better understanding of this person's primary and secondary control characteristics.

but no, it sounds far more like possessive entitlement than it does insecurity, especially given the willingness to violate social norms to get what they want.

If you want to just mash some weird definition of insecure into the convo, sure, obviously I can't argue with that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
A "classic" almost archetypal characteristic of insecurity is a lack of trust: trusting themselves or others. Her inability to feel secure about the relationship when he did not answer for 20 minutes is a definitive sign that there is a security issue. No "pop-internet psy" necessary to see that. Very typical of an insecure person is how controlling they are. It is irritating.

actually, this is pop-internet psych. lacking any in depth accounting for her motivations, you really can't say positively whether she was motivated by fear of rejection or by entitlement. I think it is closer to the latter (an insecure person is actually more likely to try and act in accommodating ways, as they fear being rejected, rather than being confrontational, which risks what they are afraid of) as the willingness to violate social norms and aggressiveness points to, but have at it man, I'm not really interested in arguing it with you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
However, you are right: we do not know the whole story. But based on the story...yeah...the lady was insecure and controlling. Crazy, too.

"controlling and insecure" would produce someone who uses passive aggressive tactics to guilt others into doing what they want. I'm not even sure this girl, from that story, could be called controlling, as she didn't seem to demand much outside of attention, but sure, w/eves

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's...not true...

Aggression is sometimes the result of insecurity.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=insecurity+and+aggression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=7lDzT5vgMKrO2AWUp4CyAw&ved=0CFcQgQMwAA

In this case, she seems to be a very insecure person. An insecure person is certainly does exhibit antisocial behaviors and isolates themselves, but that is not the same thing as a 'withdrawn' person: that is a specific type of insecure that is not at all representative of all the different "flavors" of "insecure" out there.

the only item that looks related to a personality trait called insecurity leading to aggressive behaviour is the first result, which deals with attachment insecurity, which is fairly different from the trait of insecurity.

maybe the issue is that you are looking at all the "flavors" of "insecure" out there and confusing those with the personality trait of insecure that the OP is clearly defining?

though, being honest, attachment insecurity, as a developmentally learned behaviour, is almost certainly more relevant to this girl's behaviour than is trait insecurity.

Originally posted by inimalist
the only item that looks related to a [b]personality trait called insecurity leading to aggressive behaviour is the first result, which deals with attachment insecurity, which is fairly different from the trait of insecurity.

maybe the issue is that you are looking at all the "flavors" of "insecure" out there and confusing those with the personality trait of insecure that the OP is clearly defining?

though, being honest, attachment insecurity, as a developmentally learned behaviour, is almost certainly more relevant to this girl's behaviour than is trait insecurity. [/B]

Whatever, dude: I said my piece. I do not think it is debatable nor will I engage the topic further. It is beating a dead horse.

It was insecurity.

Originally posted by inimalist
I, nor would actual control theorists, wouldn't call "loss of control" the same as "insecurity".

No, the feeling of "the loss of control". The control may not have been lost. But the insecurity really kicks in.

Hey, Big C, ignore these jabronis. Show us pics of this girl. That's way more relevant data to this decision.

Topless or not, your choice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Whatever, dude: I said my piece. I do not think it is debatable nor will I engage the topic further. It is beating a dead horse.

It was insecurity.

which study do you think shows this? I'm not being a dick when I say trait insecurity (which comes from personality psych) is a different concept than attachment insecurity (which comes from developmental psych).

The former is an ascription to an individual of a certain quality that motivates a wide range of behaviour, the latter is a learned behaviour that informs the way that individual forms and views subsequent relationships.

C-big-C made a trait based attribution, as has almost everyone in this thread, saying things like, "this girl is X". Nobody, afaik, has said something like, "this girl has obviously had issues in the past that now inform her ability to maintain a relationship". And even if they did, we still don't know her motivations, so we still would be in a position of arguing whether she did it for reasons of insecurity or something like possessiveness or entitlement.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, the feeling of "the loss of control". The control may not have been lost. But the insecurity really kicks in.

loss of primary or secondary control?

and what are this individuals attributional patterns for events? are they primary or secondary control oriented, and how easily can they move between one or the other?

for people with the proper attributional pattern and control orientation, loss of control can actually be comforting or inspiring. Even things like "learned helplessness", the quintessential "loss-of-control" scenario are only ever modestly observed, and studies since the 70s have essentially thrown a large degree of skepticism on Selegman's work, especially with regards to humans.

Originally posted by inimalist
which study do you think shows this? I'm not being a dick when I say trait insecurity (which comes from personality psych) is a different concept than attachment insecurity (which comes from developmental psych).

The former is an ascription to an individual of a certain quality that motivates a wide range of behaviour, the latter is a learned behaviour that informs the way that individual forms and views subsequent relationships.

C-big-C made a trait based attribution, as has almost everyone in this thread, saying things like, "this girl is X". And even if they did, we still don't know her motivations, so we still would be in a position of arguing whether she did it for reasons of insecurity or something like possessiveness or entitlement.

loss of primary or secondary control?

and what are this individuals attributional patterns for events? are they primary or secondary control oriented, and how easily can they move between one or the other?

for people with the proper attributional pattern and control orientation, loss of control can actually be comforting or inspiring. Even things like "learned helplessness", the quintessential "loss-of-control" scenario are only ever modestly observed, and studies since the 70s have essentially thrown a large degree of skepticism on Selegman's work, especially with regards to humans.

That's a lot of words for such little content. Too much words for a discussion I do not wish to have: I find it rather obvious that it is plenty of insecurity issues going on. You seem to think that "insecurity" only boils down to a specific type of system of behaviors: I do not.

To answer your question about what type of control loss I think she experience: primary or secondary control? The answer is, "yes." 😐 In other words, both. I personally do not feel you can narrow it down to internal or external.

Originally posted by inimalist
Nobody, afaik, has said something like, "this girl has obviously had issues in the past that now inform her ability to maintain a relationship".

Just saw this.

So let me rephrase: no one has pointed out that emotional insecurity can be attributed to events in the past (childhood)? I do not know if that was necessary. I think it would be difficult to blame her adult, insecurity behaviors soley on "man, dat b*tch be crazy." Obviously, she exhibits the behaviors for a reason and those reasons could be some severe abuse. Now we are getting too much into pop-psy with no grounds.

would this be the Thompson, Perry, Morling, Skinner version of Secondary Control, or the Heckhausen version?

again, not to sound like a dick, but it seems sort of funny that you come along and go "pfffft, you think X has this narrow definition, I don't", when, tbh, it seems to illustrate your lack of familiarity with the subject.

I mean, cool, ok, I'm certainly no expert on this stuff either, but like, I'm not sure your definition of insecurity as "anything I want it to mean" or as "anything, from any field of psych, that includes the word insecurity" carries any weight. I'm not saying agree with me, but the argument of "this is what I want" isn't very convincing.

Originally posted by inimalist
would this be the Thompson, Perry, Morling, Skinner version of Secondary Control, or the Heckhausen version?

I believe Skinner's version: 1995 (edit or 1996). But since I have not contrasted the locus, I think you're trying too hard with your "gotcha".

Originally posted by inimalist
again, not to sound like a dick, but it seems sort of funny that you come along and go "pfffft, you think X has this narrow definition, I don't", when, tbh, it seems to illustrate your lack of familiarity with the subject.

TBH, you came off as being extremely ill-informed at how diversely "insecurity" is defined in psychology. And, no, I am not being a dick, either. I know you know there are a shit ton of ways to flesh out that idea and there are many many behavioral interdependencies.

Originally posted by inimalist
I mean, cool, ok, I'm certainly no expert on this stuff either,

Why would you assume I think I am, as well? I definitely am not. But to sweepingly brush aside the notion that insecurity is not involved is definitely brash.

Originally posted by inimalist
but like, I'm not sure your definition of insecurity as "anything I want it to mean" or as "anything, from any field of psych, that includes the word insecurity" carries any weight.

Contrast that obvious strawman with this actual representation of your side: I consider insecurity to be a very specific definition of shyness and being withdrawn.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm not saying agree with me, but the argument of "this is what I want" isn't very convincing.

My argument is not that. My argument is that it is some form of insecurity, no matter how you want to mix and match it.

Can you both shut the **** up so that the more important matter can be addressed?

Originally posted by Digi
Hey, Big C, ignore these jabronis. Show us pics of this girl. That's way more relevant data to this decision.

Topless or not, your choice.

^ 👆 ^

There can be major benefits to dating someone with poor security. Burglarize the house and leave, for example, but stealing a piece of jewelry occasionally is easier to hide and is a more consistent flow of income.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There can be major benefits to dating someone with poor security. Burglarize the house and leave, for example, but stealing a piece of jewelry occasionally is easier to hide and is a more consistent flow of income.

As a Cyber Security major, I find your brand of humor humorous.

lol im not going to post picks of my ex here.

And yes I think it might be insecurity. She always assumed I was going to cheat on her. weather I go hang out with my friends or anywhere really she doesnt want me to go out at all. None of these guys she ever dated actually cheated on her. They left her for someone else because of the very reason I just left her.

You would think a girl would eventually realise she is chasing guys away with this shit.

I would post some of the very crazy voicemails she left on my cell if it were possible. theres tons of them.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
I would post some of the very crazy voicemails she left on my cell if it were possible. theres tons of them.

Why did you save those? Delete them: free up some space.

I'd weigh the costs and benefits.

I have a couple of highly insecure friends (it generally manifests as verbal condescension). But I'm still friends with them cuz I weighed the costs and benefits. Hey, no one's perfect.

My last 2 were both way above me in the looks dept and both seriously insecure...Both times it was fun...1 ended cos she moved to the other side of the world but will most likely be picked up again when she's back at Christmas...The other was a complete and utter psycho and still sporadically sends me vitriol filled messages via facebook. I'd block her but they're too entertaining to do that.