What's Logan's average? I think for the board's sanity sake, that should be established first. I'm not sure what "average" means nowadays for a character like Logan since his powers and skill level are so scattered across his thousands of appearances. In his early days with Claremont, he was pretty low compared to the pumped up '90s version that beat everyone. Today's version tends to be even less consistent.
^ In his early days with Claremont, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable even though he could be occasionally ktfo, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), he could survive being sent into lunar orbit by Jahf, shrug off being engulfed in flame, was noted to heal extremely fast, and was capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo.
That doesn't strike me as "pretty low" compared to the '90s version who was a mutant, had "powers," was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable but can be occasionally ktfo, had adamantium, went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, was a trained operative for the Canadian government and SHIELD, said "bub," continued to be mysterious with a shady past, could survive being punched into orbit, shrug off explosions, healed extremely fast, and... is capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo...
Originally posted by ODG
That doesn't strike me as "pretty low" compared to the '90s version who was a mutant, had "powers," was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable but can be occasionally ktfo, had adamantium, went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, was a trained operative for the Canadian government and SHIELD, said "bub," continued to be mysterious with a shady past, could survive being punched into orbit, shrug off explosions, healed extremely fast, and... is capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo...
Compared to what came after, it was very low. He went way above that in the '90s. At one point in Hama's run, he was rammed in the back with a stealth bomber flying a full speed and didn't blink. He just took it and just started slashing at the window to the cockpit. And that was just the tip if it.
Originally posted by ODG
^ In his early days with Claremont, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable even though he could be occasionally ktfo, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), he could survive being sent into lunar orbit by Jahf, shrug off being engulfed in flame, was noted to heal extremely fast, and was capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo.That doesn't strike me as "pretty low" compared to the '90s version who was a mutant, had "powers," was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable but can be occasionally ktfo, had adamantium, went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, was a trained operative for the Canadian government and SHIELD, said "bub," continued to be mysterious with a shady past, could survive being punched into orbit, shrug off explosions, healed extremely fast, and... is capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo...
Lmfao!!!
Originally posted by FlyingAces
Compared to what came after, it was very low. He went way above that in the '90s. At one point in Hama's run, he was rammed in the back with a stealth bomber flying a full speed and didn't blink. He just took it and just started slashing at the window to the cockpit. And that was just the tip if it.
Didn't CBR strike Hama from debates, for some reason?
I've heard the phrase "That was hama'd, we don't count it anymore" more than once.
Originally posted by ODG
His first fight which was retold in Wolverine Origins #28. The fight in Hulk/Wolverine: 6 Hours #4. Wolverine doesn't shrug off Hulk's most powerful attacks. Those are two of the only times he's actually fought Savage Hulk. That's a fact.Wolverine's been beaten by far less than Hulk and far less than Iron Fist. Wolverine doesn't shrug off Hulk's punches. And no matter how you try to spin it, or try to liberally use the term, "shrug off," that's completely false.
Invoking Hulk with some of the sh1ttiest ABC logic seen on these forums doesn't help your case. It only makes you a target for more derision. You can make a better argument. Why you choose not to is beyond me. There's no such thing. This myth has already been busted.
Dude you troll so hard, the mods should change your name to Chael Sonnen.
Those are the only two times Wolverine has fought the Savage Hulk? What about Kubert drawn fight in the Savages Lands? Or the Marvel Knights Wolverine / Hulk mini series. Punisher fight? The fight between Hulk and Deathverine? Wolverine has fought Savage Hulk more than the two times you've referenced. And Savage Hulk isn't the only class 100 brick Wolverine has thrown down with by a long shoot... he isn't even the strongest iteration of the Hulk Wolverine has fought.
Shitty ABC logic? Wolverine can shrug off punches from the Hulk. A single blow from the Hulk is more damage than Iron Fist could dish out if he had all day to do it. That's not ABC logic, it's just called logic. Iron Fist can't put Wolverine down. Wolverine's base line average is better than, Danny's absolute very best 1 in 1000 outlier feats... by a long shot. The best Iron Fist could muster wouldn't make Wolverine bat an eye lid... he might as well spray Wolverine with saline solution for all the good it will do. Iron Fist can't beat Wolverine. Danny is a glass canon, Wolverine can't take his best shots in stride and drop him with a single blow. That's it.
Wolverine didn't have a healing factor until Uncanny X-Men 142. That's not a myth that can be busted because it is A fact. Prior to that he was a mutant with unspecified powers that seemed to be an undefined (and inconsistent) level of invulnerability and super senses. Prior to 1981, Wolverine did not have a healing factor.
Originally posted by srankmissingninTwo of the only times. Not the only two times.
Dude you troll so hard, the mods should change your name to Chael Sonnen.Those are the only two times Wolverine has fought the Savage Hulk?
Originally posted by srankmissingninMindless Hulk dying from his separation from Banner. That Sam Keith miniseries was awful. I recall Wolverine getting one-shotted to Boston there... so??? Wolverine had his Death amp.
What about Kubert drawn fight in the Savages Lands? Or the Marvel Knights Wolverine / Hulk mini series. Punisher fight? The fight between Hulk and Deathverine?
Originally posted by srankmissingninAnd he gets one or two shotted by him. You're right that he's not the only class 100 brick Wolverine's fought. Skaar two-shotted him too. Juggernaut tossed him around and one-shotted him. Thing one-shotted him once. Sentry tossed him around and one-shotted him. Wolverine can fight class 100 bricks. But acting like Wolverine fights them while shrugging off their blows is a mischaracterization and bastardization.
Wolverine has fought Savage Hulk more than the two times you've referenced. And Savage Hulk isn't the only class 100 brick Wolverine has thrown down with by a long shoot... he isn't even the strongest iteration of the Hulk Wolverine has fought.
Originally posted by srankmissingninInvoking Hulk doesn't help your case, since Wolverine gets wrecked by him and has been wrecked by him. Wolverine's been knocked out by far less than Hulk. So your sh1tty ABC logic of comparing Iron Fist to Hulk's power output is meaningless.
Shitty ABC logic? Wolverine can shrug off punches from the Hulk. A single blow from the Hulk is more damage than Iron Fist could dish out if he had all day to do it. That's not ABC logic, it's just called logic. Iron Fist can't put Wolverine down. Wolverine's base line average is better than, Danny's absolute very best 1 in 1000 outlier feats... by a long shot. The best Iron Fist could muster wouldn't make Wolverine bat an eye lid... he might as well spray Wolverine with saline solution for all the good it will do. Iron Fist can't beat Wolverine. Danny is a glass canon, Wolverine can't take his best shots in stride and drop him with a single blow. That's it.Wolverine didn't have a healing factor until Uncanny X-Men 142. That's not a myth that can be busted because it is A fact. Prior to that he was a mutant with unspecified powers that seemed to be an undefined (and inconsistent) level of invulnerability and super senses. Prior to 1981, Wolverine did not have a healing factor.
Prior to 1981, we the audience did not know he had a defined healing factor that was responsible for the feats Wolverine had under his belt. After it was explicitly revealed, Wolverine's prior feats made complete sense in retrospect (how else does he survive getting knocked into lunar orbit by Jahf in 1977???). So he had a healing factor before 1981 in his appearances and it is applied. You also are aware of this because every single flashback to his pre-1981 appearances conserves those fights as they stood with his healing factor in play.
Until you have on-panel evidence that Wolverine did not have his healing factor to overturn all the flashbacks to his pre-1981 appearances, you're just making up sh1tty excuses and myths to disregard fights you don't care for. As for post-1981 fights that you want to disregard, you just make up other sh1tty excuses and invoke "zomg PIS" to disregard fights you don't care for. Your myth is busted. It was easy to bust. Stop trying to bring that sh1tty myth up.
Originally posted by ODG
Two of the only times. Not the only two times.
Why even bother to specify that?
Originally posted by ODG
Mindless Hulk dying from his separation from Banner. That Sam Keith miniseries was awful. I recall Wolverine getting one-shotted to Boston there... so??? Wolverine had his Death amp. And he gets one or two shotted by him. You're right that he's not the only class 100 brick Wolverine's fought. Skaar two-shotted him too. Juggernaut tossed him around and one-shotted him. Thing one-shotted him once. Sentry tossed him around and one-shotted him. Wolverine can fight class 100 bricks. But acting like Wolverine fights them while shrugging off their blows is a mischaracterization and bastardization. Invoking Hulk doesn't help your case, since Wolverine gets wrecked by him and has been wrecked by him. Wolverine's been knocked out by far less than Hulk. So your sh1tty ABC logic of comparing Iron Fist to Hulk's power output is meaningless.
It's true Banner-less Hulk was dying, but he was also stronger than Savage Hulk.
The Sam Keith mini was better than both the examples you cited... by like 10 orders of magnitude on a logarithmic scale better. Although I do think it funny that you cite an example from one of the most universally reviled arcs in comic book history, and then have the audacity to write off another example because the book was "awful."
He got punched to Boston, but he was completely fine. Wolverine tanked being punched across state lines like it was nothing. Which should give you and indication of how much effect the Iron Fist will have on him. Hint: None what-so-ever.
Deathverine amp was the return of his Adamantium, a scimitar that shot a laser, and some other weaponry that he never used against the Hulk... that's it. He wasn't stronger, or faster and his healing factor wasn't amped any, the fact that he was Deathverine is of little to no significance. He got hit a good half a dozen plus times on panel before the Wolverine persona regained control and gave-up, then Apoc summed Deathverine back and said he and Hulk could fight for an eternity before either one of them won (something WWH also said).
It is the height of humor that you claim that Wolverine shrugging off class 100 blows is a "bastardization and characterization," then say something like "Thing one shotted Wolverine," as though that holds any weight. How many times have Thing and Wolverine fought? And how many times has Wolverine been one shotted? Same goes for the dozen or so times Wolverine has fought the Hulk. It's blatantly obvious that the example you are citing is the exception not the rule. For every single instance there is of Wolverine being one or two shotted by a class 100 brick there is half a dozen more when he takes those shots in stride like they are nothing. You are using the outlier to formulate your opinion and you have the gale to accuse someone else of creating a bastardize idealization of the character's abilities? What makes you think the minority representation is more valid that majority? The stuff you are citing can be countered by a margin of more than ten to one in a feat war. Not do you low ball Wolverine with bullshit PIS feats, that but in your next breath you purport the merits of the Iron Fist by citing 1 in a 100 examples like the train or helicarrier punch... as though that's the standard for Danny's striking power? 9 out of 10 times the Iron Fist is more or Spider-man, car destroyer level. Dude, I doubt your bias could be any more transparent if you tried.
Originally posted by ODG
Prior to 1981, we the audience did not know he had a defined healing factor that was responsible for the feats Wolverine had under his belt. After it was explicitly revealed, Wolverine's prior feats made complete sense in retrospect (how else does he survive getting knocked into lunar orbit by Jahf in 1977???). So he had a healing factor before 1981 in his appearances and it is applied. You also are aware of this because every single flashback to his pre-1981 appearances conserves those fights as they stood with his healing factor in play.Until you have on-panel evidence that Wolverine did not have his healing factor to overturn all the flashbacks to his pre-1981 appearances, you're just making up sh1tty excuses and myths to disregard fights you don't care for. As for post-1981 fights that you want to disregard, you just make up other sh1tty excuses and invoke "zomg PIS" to disregard fights you don't care for. Your myth is busted. It was easy to bust. Stop trying to bring that sh1tty myth up.
Now you are purposely confusing the issue. You aren't citing flash backs that take place pre 1981 in Wolverine continuity, you are citing actually issues that were published in that time frame. Obviously we know that in current continuity Wolverine has always had a healing factor, but that wasn't always the case, and you are citing issues from before those clarifications were made. Sunspot originally didn't have enhanced durability to go along with his super strength.... the fact that he does now doesn't magically elevate all the feats of people injuring him prior to that point in his history of publication. Welcome to the world of retcons. If you want to cite Flashbacks, feel free to do so... but that is not what you are doing. You are citing examples from a well documented time when the writers had no idea what Wolverine's origin was, what his powers were and hadn't even decided if he was an actually mutant yet, and then pretending like those incidents have a relevant baring in a discussion regarding Wolverine now. They don't. In any issue of Wolverine published before 1981, Wolverine does not have a healing factor.
If you really don't understand the concept of retcons and continuity, I'm sure you can PM one of the mods and have them explain it to you.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes. Chris Claremont's seminal and universally acclaimed run on the Uncanny X-Men was bad writing. dur
I don't know about his Xmen run, not being the biggest X-fan, but his Iron Fist run is pretty acclaimed too.
But I still think turning Yu Ti into an arsehole despot who happens to be the brother to his father that he helped murder (along with his mother) for the sake of drama is pretty poor writing (And how much sense does it make to push Danny into becoming the next Iron Fist, when Danny has every reason to avenge his family if he discovers Yu Ti's crimes?), even if I do enjoy other aspects of his run.