Iron Fist and Luke Cage vs Wolverine

Started by ODG8 pages

Originally posted by SamZED
Not trying to interrupt your conversation but do you really believe that all the writers who wrote Wolverine prior to that year.. All of them... Had a silent agreement that he had a healing factor rather than just superhuman durability? I'm asking because Black Cat beat Sabertooth when he had no HF. The fight stayed in continuity but his healing factor clearly wasn't present when they fought.
Conversation is hardly meant to be limited, it's an open one; so no need to be politely cautious about throwing in your two cents. My question is, did they need to have a silent agreement that he had a healing factor? Sabretooth displayed accelerated healing in a drag-out knock-down fight with Ms. Marvel before he ever fought Black Cat too in his second appearance.

I don't care what fanboys like us can theorize that writers agree on unless its shown on-panel. Unless Wolverine absolutely could not have a healing factor, which is something that you'd need positive clear evidence for, you cannot discount that per comics history he did have a healing factor back then, especially not when it's supported by his actual healing feats back then and all the hints and allusions.

Just because the writers likely didn't decide Wolverine was a mutant in his first appearance with Hulk doesn't mean he wasn't a mutant in that specific issue and so... hey... a Sentinel wouldn't bother with him. Just because the writers didn't likely decide Wolverine had his claws attached to his skeletal structure, doesn't mean that they weren't and so... hey... I can argue Cap could simply pull his gloves off and beat him easy. Just because the writers didn't likely decide Wolverine had full adamantium lacing over all his bones back then, doesn't mean he didn't have full lacing and so... hey... Iron Man could only magnetize his claws.

That kind of precise paring is absolutely retarded. A new fully formed revelation that is both supported and obvious in retrospect, doesn't reverse-retcon a character. There is no on-panel proof he had no healing factor. We know at that age and with that history, he did. And just because there are some "low feats" according to some people that make it suspect that the writer intends him to have a healing factor along with some high feats that make it obvious he does, doesn't mean he has no healing factor ever. In current times, the same exact thing happens.

Originally posted by ODG
Right, and lost to a Tyrannosaurus and Deadpool... badly in the same time frame. He fluctuated enormously.

First he didn't lose to Deadpool, he got tricked into impaling himself on a pipe... then Deadpool teleported away because he only wanted Hulk's blood in the first place. Anyway the examples you have cited question the durability and stamina of Bannerless Hulk, but not his strength... which is what is germane to this particular conversation. Wolverine didn't beat up Bannerless Hulk, he meerly tanked a punch from him, and Bannerless Hulk was stated as being stronger than Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by ODG
Translation: "Waah waah waah. The comics I don't like, some spanning several years of continuity... I don't like and I am allowed to pretend they never happened! But you're nt allowed to like a Sam Keith mini where Wolverine looked good against Hulk even though Wolverine and Hulk get slapped around by a polar bear !!!!"

Yeah I'm reeeeeeeeeeeeeal butt hurt about it. It keeps me up at night. 🙄

As usual, you're the one throwing a temper tantrum, and have resorted to your typical straw manning like you do every time you can't formulate an actual rebuttal. Again - and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be lay this out for you - "liking" the issues at hand has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the forum rules are very clear on what his considered valid and appropriate.

Full Capacity

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

AND

No Mentioning Events of PIS

Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

I don't ignore anything because "I don't like it," my personal feelings on the quality of an arc or individual issue are completely irrelevant when determining the validity in using a particular example as evidence in a forum match. The rules that cover this issue - as posted above - are clearly stated and defined. High or low, if something is inconstant with the majority representation of a character, then it is irrelevant in these discussions. You my friend are the one who lets his personal feelings dictate what feats are and are not valid in order to facilitate your own confirmation bias, I am merely fallowing the rules as laid out by the forum Mods, rules that exist to create a single consistent portrait of a character for the sole purpose of debate. So we don't treat Thor being knocked out by a falling mast, and him tanking punches form Gladiator with equal objectivity because we can't. Without some extenuating circumstance there is no way to reconcile the conflicting portrayal in a singular ideation of a character... which is why we don't even bother trying.

The rules clearly specifies that a character operates at the best of their abilities, where as you are clearly low balling the character by basing your argument around bottom of the barrel PIS examples that don't fall in line with majority representation of the character. We have these rules for a reason Dumb, fallow them. Stop looking for examples that support your twisted idea of how things should be, and start formulating opinions based on that facts that are presented to you.

Originally posted by ODG
Do it now in the Battlezone forum. Five posts each. We'll pick judges afterwards or let a mod pick judges. I don't want you slinking away from this like so many others do.

Fine, the threads up. I'm not proving a negative, so make your point and then I'll counter it.

Originally posted by ODG
You don't need to write an essay to prove how stupid you are. Wolverine was a mysterious character. Like any mysterious character, they didn't reveal all his cards from the very beginning. You can't separate out the history from the character and pretend that all his feats that show extraordinary healing, feats that could not have been possible without extraordinary healing, his very nature as having adamantium completely bonded to every single bone in his body, as somehow not having a healing factor. This bs myth that Wolverine was some malformed amorphous character is nothing but bs. Per canon, he had a healing factor ever since his mutation kicked in. Per publishing, he had feats that show he has accelerated healing otherwise he would have died. Had there been a single statement where Wolverine or another character noted that Wolverine doesn't heal any better than a normal human, you'd have an argument. As it stands, you have no evidence that he positively had no healing factor.

Don't you don't know the difference between an essay, and a paragraph?

They didn't reveal the cards at the very begin because they didn't know what the cards were. He was supposed to be a teen-age Spider-man analogue with claws built into his gloves, then he was going to be a mutant Wolverine who just looked human by happenstance of his mutation, and then he became more or less the Wolverine we know. There wasn't a deliberate intent from the writer to hide the fact that Wolverine had a healing factor, the simply handed decided he had one yet. Originally Wolverine simply had animistic characteristics, and undefined level of invulnerability, and there was no need to specify what his powers were because it was originally intended that Wolverine would be killed off. This stuff is all well documented. They were still hinting at the fact that Logan wasn't even a mutant

Also... why on earth would a writer specify that a character doesn't have a healing factor? That's not how things work. Show me a line of dialogue that states that Foggy Nelson is not a Herald of Galactus! dur

Originally posted by ODG
Stop trying to pretend it never happened then. You have no on-panel evidence that he had no healing factor. You don't even have an editor's/ writer's interview saying he had no healing factor (even though per KMC forum rules, those are inadmissable). Wolverine wasn't nebulous, he wasn't ill-defined. He was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable even though he could be occasionally ktfo, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), he could survive being sent into lunar orbit by Jahf, shrug off being engulfed in flame, was noted to heal extremely fast, and was capable of fighting with the Hulk and Wendigo.

I've never said that didn't happen, I said they irrelevant to the discussion... because they are. Do to retcon's and 30 years of character development the feats carried out in the Claremont's Uncanny X-Men prior to 1981 are largely inconsequential and are applicable to any discussion involving the current iteration of the character. Even if we pretended that this fairy tale that you've spun was accurate there would still be 30 years of natural character evolution on top of all this, that would leave you espousing the merits of feats that are the equivalent of teenage Spider-man struggling with Kingpin in a contest of strength, pretending that those hold an sort ground in relationship to the current operation levels of the character.

Wolverine didn't have a healing factor prior to 1981.

Originally posted by ODG
Now you can stop with your 5-year old whining and crying about "NO! THAS NOTS FAIR!!!! WOLVERINE HAZZED NO POWERS BACK THEN, U NOT ALLOWED TO TALKS ABOUTS EM!!!!!" Every time Wolverine gets beat up by a street leveler, or anything less than an atom bomb, you make the same god damn excuse about his healing factor. And we're all tired of hearing about it.

😆

Christ you are butt hurt, you are acting so juvenile, its cute how easily you get frustrated.

As much as you'd like to pretend that the only Wolverine feats that matter are Punisher hitting Wolverine in the nuts with a baseball bat, and Daredevil punching him in the throat, that isn't how things work on this forum. The rules are clear as to what is and what is not considered applicable, and for whatever reason your sad confirmation bias prevents you from fallowing this rules. Wolverine's baseline average is FAR and above what Iron Fist is capable off, and for everyone of your sad sack low ball feats, I can cite a dozen more to support my stance. You've been a member of this site for a long time, stop pretending like you need someone to hold your hand and explain how things work to you.

We aren't here to write a character bio or bibliography, we are here to debate and decide which characters would win fights. In order to do that we have a set of forum rules that dictate what feats are and are not relevant to the discussion, so that we can formulate a consistent and accurate idea of what the characters are capable of and have everything on the same page. For those purposes not everything is valid merely by virtue of being canon, and further more you don't have the luxury of picking and choosing the feats you want to matter in order to conform to a preconceived notion of what the character can and can't do. How a characters is typically portrayed is what is of the out most importance, any showings - high or low - that do not fall in line with a character's baseline average are completely irrelevant whether they are PIS or not.

SIMPLE

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
First he didn't lose to Deadpool, he got tricked into impaling himself on a pipe... then Deadpool teleported away because he only wanted Hulk's blood in the first place. Anyway the examples you have cited question the durability and stamina of Bannerless Hulk, but not his strength... which is what is germane to this particular conversation. Wolverine didn't beat up Bannerless Hulk, he meerly tanked a punch from him, and Bannerless Hulk was stated as being stronger than Savage Hulk.

Yeah I'm reeeeeeeeeeeeeal butt hurt about it. It keeps me up at night. 🙄

As usual, you're the one throwing a temper tantrum, and have resorted to your typical straw manning like you do every time you can't formulate an actual rebuttal. Again - and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be lay this out for you - "liking" the issues at hand has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the forum rules are very clear on what his considered valid and appropriate.

I don't care about weakened versions of Hulk that get overpowered by a Tyrannosaurus. You do. Cry more about it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Full Capacity

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened

Did Wolverine explicitly have no healing factor pre-1981? No. You have not presented any explicit on-panel evidence suggesting it. So pretending like I cannot refer to 7 whole years of some of the most important, vital history of Wolverine's adventures when you have not produced a single shred of explicit on-panel evidence that explicitly says he has no healing factor means nothing to me.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
Wolverine has never casually waded through Cyclops focused beams or zapped Colossus with energy blasts from his hands. Deathverine was an amp. I don't care about amped characters.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't ignore anything because "I don't like it," my personal feelings on the quality of an arc or individual issue are completely irrelevant when determining the validity in using a particular example as evidence in a forum match. The rules that cover this issue - as posted above - are clearly stated and defined.
No sh1t, Sherlock. Use them and understand them properly.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fine, the threads up. I'm not proving a negative, so make your point and then I'll counter it.
Don't b1tch out. You made your blanket statements and have argued them til the cows come home. This is a positive statement, not a negative: "The best Iron Fist could muster wouldn't make Wolverine bat an eye lid... he might as well spray Wolverine with saline solution for all the good it will do." And you've been arguing it with your backwards-a$$ Hulk=/=Iron Fist ABC logic from the start.

Don't b1tch out.

Was there really a big difference between Wolverines damage soak prior Claremont? Not sure if Hulk always had a healing factor either......or Captain America.

Originally posted by SamZED
This is basically Logan vs IF all over again. No disrespect to Cage but he will get skewered almost instantly. Logan will go after him first.
False, don't underestimate cage at all. As stated before Using ground pounds and thunder claps he has the power to do some serious damage from a distance.

Originally posted by Trackz
False, don't underestimate cage at all. As stated before Using ground pounds and thunder claps he has the power to do some serious damage from a distance.

Against Victoria Hand?

Originally posted by Trackz
False, don't underestimate cage at all. As stated before Using ground pounds and thunder claps he has the power to do some serious damage from a distance.
but its not really in Cage's CIS. Hed mosy likely charge at Logan. And that wont end well.

Originally posted by Deadline
Against Victoria Hand?
that was obviously a tame one he was using, but Luke Cage should definitely not be counted out of this fight.

Originally posted by SamZED
but its not really in Cage's CIS. Hed mosy likely charge at Logan. And that wont end well.
From what I've read, Cage isn't the most skilled fighter, but he works well with what he knows. If he knows Wolverine can skewer him, I hardly see him running at Wolverine. Cage by no means could take a majority against Wolverine one-on-one. Ge can't one-shot him. But if he lands a few thunder claps and maybe one hay maker before going down, that will do plenty to weaken Logans healing factor. If you don't believe Ironfist can one-shot logan, he could definitely be able to after Cage wreaks havoc on Logan's cranium.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
We aren't here to write a character bio or bibliography, we are here to debate and decide which characters would win fights.
Then stop trying to act like some arbiter of canon material and editorialize what adventures we're allowed to talk about and what adventures we're not allowed to talk about because of your juvenile, half-baked notions.

The 7 years of Wolverine's Claremont's adventures are canon to the character, so deal with it. So are the 4 years of Wolverine: Origins. Those lengthy adventures do not constitute some one-off victory of a street-leveler beating a Herald of Galactus, which is what PIS is. PIS =/= your guesswork that maybe the healing factor was completely non-existent based on: 1) no on-panel proof, 2) no writer/editor interviews (that are banned from the KMC rules anyway), and 3) actual allusions and feats of his accelerated healing.

Nuff said.

Originally posted by Deadline
Was there really a big difference between Wolverines damage soak prior Claremont? Not sure if Hulk always had a healing factor either......or Captain America.
No, there wasn't. He could survive being swatted by Colossus full force, survive getting knocked into lunar orbit by Jahf (who railed Colossus), survive being completely engulfed in flame, survived Harry Leland's gravity assault that sent him crashing through the Hellfire mansion into the sewers, survived Hulk's shot in their Hulk/Wendigo fight... etc.

Srank is drinking the Wolverine koolaid.

Home brewed.

Originally posted by Mindset
Srank is drinking the Wolverine koolaid.

You guys should try it, wash the taste of Iron Fist's cock out of your mouth.

You just picking and choosing the parts of my post you want to respond to now Dumb? *sigh*

Whatever is convenient for you I guess, it's not like you are saying anything that I haven't discredited a dozen times already.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
There is a better chance of him hurting himself punching Wolverine, then there is of him doing any sort of lasting damage to Wolverine.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Danny's most powerful punch is an impotent wet noodle compared to what Wolverine has shrugged off with a smile on his face. If you think Iron Fist can beat Wolverine, you need to get you f@cking head examined, because there is something wrong.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Iron Fist might as well be throwing snow balls, because he has NO chance of putting Wolverine down for the count.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Iron Fist can't put Wolverine down. Wolverine's base line average is better than, Danny's absolute very best 1 in 1000 outlier feats... by a long shot. The best Iron Fist could muster wouldn't make Wolverine bat an eye lid... he might as well spray Wolverine with saline solution for all the good it will do.
I had plenty of idiotic posts like this to pick and choose from. You didn't want to battlezone it because you didn't want judges to declare how retarded you are. Fine by me. They speak for themselves.

Nice attempt at trying to resucitate that bullsh1t "pre-1981 Wolverine was depowered" myth though. kinda

Originally posted by ODG
I had plenty of idiotic posts like this to pick and choose from. You didn't want to battlezone it because you didn't want judges to declare how retarded you are. Fine by me. They speak for themselves.

Nice attempt at trying to resucitate that bullsh1t "pre-1981 Wolverine was depowered" myth though. kinda

🙄

The threads ready to go man, make your case any time you're ready, you know where I am. Back your shit up or stop wasting my time already.

Originally posted by ODG
You wan to battlezone your god damn claim that Iron Fist's best shot won't make Wolverine even bat an eyelid? You're on. Make the topic, smart-mouth. Or shut the phuck up with this horsecrap you're panhandling.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Easiest ****ing Battlezone ever, I'll take that challenge any time you want buddy and laugh all the way to the bank.
Originally posted by ODG
Make the battlezone topic over this issue: "The best Iron Fist could muster wouldn't make Wolverine bat an eye lid... he might as well spray Wolverine with saline solution for all the good it will do."

Do it now in the Battlezone forum. Five posts each. We'll pick judges afterwards or let a mod pick judges. I don't want you slinking away from this like so many others do.

Now make that battlezone and don't you b1tch out.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fine, the threads up. I'm not proving a negative, so make your point and then I'll counter it.
The point is the underlined point. Well you shutted the phuck up. That you did it with all the grace of a slobbering weasel trying to backdoor a turtle is on you, not me. Good job with another non-starter battlezone, srankmissingnin. Good job.

i see s-rank's point about wolverine being able to stand up to hulk and others and still be able to breathe, but those types of heavy weights are not equal to the amount of street-meta types that have indeed hurt him, so you definitely have some explaining to do if you want to make a case for wolverine against a guy who's chief power is to punch the shit out of things

Originally posted by ODG
The point is the underlined point. Well you shutted the phuck up. That you did it with all the grace of a slobbering weasel trying to backdoor a turtle is on you, not me. Good job with another non-starter battlezone, srankmissingnin. Good job.

The Battlezones there and waiting champ, I made it just like you asked. It will be open in perpetuity on the off chance your balls drop and you decide do to more than just run your mouth.

^ 😂

Your attempt to rewrite the history of my battlezone challenge is about as accurate as your attempt to editorialize away 80 issues and 11 years of Wolverine's canon history. Anybody can read the quotes, clownshoes.

Don't change, ever. You always do spectacularly self-combust when it comes to Wolverine. Entertaining. Where should I leave the tip?