Franklin Richards VS Dreaming Celestial

Originally posted by zopzop

Don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. The alt reality Celestials WERE destroyed. Tiamut stated 616 Celestials don't really die. Even before that Eternals issue where Tiamut said that, I believe it was stated that the reason why Tiamut was imprisoned, rather than destroyed by his brothers, was because Celestials can't be killed. This is Surfer's and Galactus' reaction when Thanos with the HotU killed 616 Ziran :

Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too).

I agree with you on this one . During the Universal Entropy Gun incident , the Celestial that was slagged by Reed's gun , was indeed portrayed as having been killed . While Hickman's Mad Celestials seemed to have a variable durability(from surviving an alternate UN to having their armor melted by a CCR-enhanced Johnny) , they were portrayed as being very much killable .

Compared to 616 Celestials , who have never been truly "killed" in continuity(the Exitar incident is proof of this) and when they have(one of which ,i.e the Knowhere Celestial , was an off-panel death and is questionable , as the Celestial's "ghost" came back to give Adam Warlock a warning) , it elicited major shock from onlookers as to who or what could be powerful enough to perform such a feat as killing a Celestial .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Arishem is an alpha male among Celestials . Sure in that particular showing , Tiamut was portrayed as being his superior , but don't forget Thor#300 , in which the narrative describes him as "the mightiest of Celestials" that were present there .

So maybe , just MAYBE , it would be just that much harder to put him down(let alone damaging him) than it would be for an average Celestial . Also , while physical damage may not have been portrayed on-panel(it was Timaut's recollection after all) , considering how quickly Celestials can repair damage , its not wholly out of the realm of possibility , that Tiamut caused SOME damage to the Celestials which got repaired(all of this presumably happening off-panel) .

Maybe. The main reason I'd be inclined to side with Tiamut here is based on his ability to defeat Arishem, then proceed to [albeit momentarily] hold his own against 4 other Celestials. Granted Frank also beat a few Celestials, but he would have eventually been overwhelmed by the 3 of them w/o Galactus' help.

It's certainly no stomp, though.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's because Tiamut fought 616 Arishem. 616 Arishem was called the mightiest of the Celestials, tanked the combined blast of the three top skyfathers of Earth, had the power to destroy said skyfathers realm's gateway to Earth (sealing them off forever), destroyed the Odinsword AND the Curse on it (something Odin himself couldn't do) effortlessly.

Disagree with you about the other point. The mad Celestials were beaten--doubt they were perma-killed. No reason to assume they are any different than 616 Celestials where that is concerned...

Originally posted by zopzop

Alt Reality ANYTHING != 616 reality counterpart. 616 is the originator, everything else is the copy (cheap copy from the looks of it too). [/B]

There are plenty of characters and items stronger in an ult reality and plenty of chars just as strong or smart etc. It's a case by case basis not a blatant dismissal of anything not 616.

I really hate when people use Celestials from other universes to talk about 616 Celestials. They can have WILDLY different tech, and who knows what else. It's like using someone beating Ultimate Thor's a** to talk about Thor.

Originally posted by Galan007
No reason to assume they are any different than 616 Celestials where that is concerned...

So Ultimate Odin can bust galaxies? No reason to assume an Odin from a different universe is any different than 616 Odin.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
So Ultimate Odin can bust galaxies? No reason to assume an Odin from a different universe is any different than 616 Odin.

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...

Originally posted by Galan007
Eson was an 'alpha' as well--that didn't stop Galactus (who was roughly on par with Franklin at the time) from shredding through his shell. But yeah, you could very well be right.

Maybe. The main reason I'd be inclined to side with Tiamut here is based on his ability to defeat Arishem, then proceed to [albeit momentarily] hold his own against 4 other Celestials. Granted Frank also beat a few Celestials, but he would have eventually been overwhelmed by the 3 of them w/o Galactus' help.

It's certainly no stomp, though.

I doubt that Tiamut was truly trying to kill Arishem because :
1. according to Tiamut's own beliefs its impossible to kill a Celestial(so I doubt he would bother to attempt such a thing)
and ,
2. Tiamut was the supposedly the field leader at the time , and even if one of his own was trying to rebel , I doubt he would truly want to kill a brethren of his .

You'll have to show me where I said "weaker". I'm saying you can't use one universe's character's feats to talk about another universes. Scathan, for example is clearly beyond any 616 Celestial. Ultimate Colossus can beat down Ultimate Thor. Should I use that to prove something about 616 Thor and 616 Colossus? IDK if Mad Celestials are >, =, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
You'll have to show me where I said "weaker". I'm saying you can't use one universe's character's feats to talk about another universes. Scathan, for example is clearly beyond any 616 Celestial. Ultimate Colossus can beat down Ultimate Thor. IDK if Mad Celestials are >, +, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty.

I believe you meant an "=" sign there .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I doubt that Tiamut was truly trying to kill Arishem because :
1. according to Tiamut's own beliefs its impossible to kill a Celestial(so I doubt he would bother to attempt such a thing)
and ,
2. Tiamut was the supposedly the field leader at the time , and even if one of his own was trying to rebel , I doubt he would truly want to kill a brethren of his .

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
IDK if Mad Celestials are >, =, or < 616 Celestials, but neither does anyone else, and using them to prove something about 616 Celestials is faulty.

Originally posted by Galan007
So you're assuming any non-616 character is weaker than a 616 character? Where was this stated?

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I believe you meant an "=" sign there .

Damned shift key.

Originally posted by Galan007
So you're assuming any non-616 character is weaker than a 616 character? Where was this stated?

Hell 616 Reed himself said that his alternate versions were just as intelligent, if no moreso, than himself... And this was in the same arc that we saw the mad Celestials. So yeah...

And MC2 Reed has possibly the best tech feat of any marvel char

Originally posted by zopzop
And that was the same arc where 616 Reed saved their asses and slagged AKA KILLED a Rogue Celestial with his Entropy Gun. Like I said, don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. 😠

Yeah , in that arc , 616 Reed's own feat trumps the (hyperbolic) statement he himself made regarding the individual intellect of his Council counterparts .
They maybe smarter than him as a COLLECTIVE(if we take Sol's Anvil into account) , but individually.......no . Just no .

Originally posted by zopzop
And that was the same arc where 616 Reed saved their asses and slagged AKA KILLED a Rogue Celestial with his Entropy Gun. Like I said, don't try to save Hickman from his own stupidity. 😠

Furthermore, in that very same splash-page we see one of the mad Celestials tanking a blast from the UN. A few issues later we saw another mad Celestial tank yet another blast from a UN.

...So also take that into consideration. 😉

Originally posted by Galan007
So the other Reeds not having an entropy gun on hand proves that 616 Reed is smarter than them? Can't follow that logic.

Furthermore, in that very same splash-page we see one of the mad Celestials tanking a blast from the UN. A few issues later we saw another mad Celestial tank yet another blast from a UN.

...So also take that into consideration. 😉

In the second instance the Celestial didn't technically tank a blast from the UN , as that Reed lost focus and ended up turning the Nullifier on himself .

Originally posted by Galan007
So the other Reeds not having an entropy gun on hand proves that 616 Reed is smarter than them? Can't follow that logic.

Furthermore, in that very same splash-page we see one of the mad Celestials tanking a blast from the UN. A few issues later we saw another mad Celestial tank yet another blast from a UN.

...So also take that into consideration. 😉

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In the second instance the Celestial didn't technically tank a blast from the UN , as that Reed lost focus and ended up turning the Nullifier on himself .

Originally posted by zopzop
Hickman is a hack.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
What makes you think that ? And yes Ashema was indeed portrayed as superior to kid Franklin . Against Hickman's adult Franklin , she too would have received a (somewhat) similar treatment as the Mad Celestials did .

The Celestials themselves assessed Kid Franklin as having the potential to become one of them. Impressive as that is, it still doesn't mean he would be at the upper-end of their species.

Adult Franklin might have showings that I don't know of (most likely he does) but nothing I've seen makes me regard him as above their [Celestials] average.