Best travelling speed feats

Originally posted by Juntai
First off, your first few observations are pointless, and the last one is a stretch of the truth. Surfer had no plans to die with the Elders, he also did not do anything as they were being sucked in regardless. He said he would if he must, but they were going down anyways, just as Surfer was until "MASTER" was screamed several times by Nova and Galactus showed up. This is just the first in a drastic series of comprehension fails.
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r453/Stigmonus/Issue%209-1.jpg
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r453/Stigmonus/Issue%209-2.jpg

Also, that wasn't Surfer screaming either. That was Nova. Whether or not he was actively trying to escape, he was still trying to make sure they would go in the hole.

But I enjoy how you actively crusade against this, but you just file the many many examples of ftl as secret hyperspace travel. You're only answering things you think you can, but ignoring the actual main issue. All of this is side issues. Hell, you bring up this black hole issue as trying to say Surfer can't travel faster than light, but then you go on to ignore examples of people escaping black holes. You realize how that looks don't you?

So yes, if Surfer couldn't escape a black hole, you're right. But all that leaves us to is lowballing. But what happens when people do escape black holes? Ignore them?

Originally posted by Juntai
As you've conceeded the use of hyperspace throughout this story, I'll concede to forgetting that In-betweener sealed the realm and that's why he needed help out of a black hole yet again.

There is one that I want to point out specifically though that is not here, and I point it out because it wasn't stated anywhere but is pretty much irrefutable, and also breaks down several pieces of your arguments

Reed and Surfer just flying on his board.
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r453/Stigmonus/Issue%2016-1.jpg

And when it switches perspectives, you see the telltale signs of FTL/Hyperspace travel.
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r453/Stigmonus/Issue%2016-2.jpg

So they're seen just cruising at one angle. In the other angle it's that artists array of colors that details hyperspace/ftl sometimes, then back to the other angle of just cruising.

But I'll bring it all full circle later.

lol, Ron Lim loves those colors if he doesn't want to draw backgrounds. He adds those effects in for no reason sometimes, like for example:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SS_v3_018_03a.jpg

Proof they went absolutely nowhere:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SS_v3_018_04a.jpg

Not to mention the background was the same colors as those blurred lines.

Though I like how this isn't applicable when there's absolutely no Ron Lim colors like that, or when a warp is specifically shown in stories, but not in the instance of Surfer traveling light years in seconds. What'd you say later? Picking and choosing? Yeah, exactly that.

Irrefutable. 😂
Though I appreciate the irony when you're ignoring irrefutable ftl scans.

Originally posted by Juntai
Being amused at how long it took to travel from point a to point b in hyperspace does nothing to diminish the fact it was both used as I said, and also that when Surfer thought Zenn-La faced imminent destruction, at one of his most desperate moments ever, he used a wormhole to traverse light years in seconds. Why go to all that bother if he could do it himself without hyperspace?
You didn't disprove anything here, you just thought it was funny I guess?

And I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here, but Zenn La is 6000 light years away from Earth
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/SSANN02_22a.jpg

Why wouldn't he use hyperspace to get there immediately? I don't know what you think your point is here, but everything you say about hyperspace fits into the actual use of it. It's used to travel light years nigh instantly. Surfer's not using it to travel light minutes. Surfer uses it to travel many many light years.

Now, back to the actual feat at hand. Surfer was using hyperspace to travel to the galactic center of the galaxy.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/SS_v3_031_06a.jpg

I'm not even sure what you were going on with about Zenn La, but that's the actual issue.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, you may or not be able to use wormholes, but hyperspace travel can be used without coordinates or direction, as it's simply faster than light travel. Wormholes are optional, but frequent. I've addressed this before and I'll address it more in these posts.

But you still ignored the actual point. Those guys knew **** all about Surfer and Surfer had already visited most of the locations in the universe by that time. Something they said he couldn't have even traveled halfway across the universe in billions of years. Just accept it, they were wrong.

Originally posted by Juntai
As for the Macroverse. Are you sure you read that story? Surfer flew around in the space of the Macroverse for a couple panels, merged with the consciousness of a planet, then sat on a beach, then decided it was time to go home, found Sama D again, and mentioned that Sama D has been exploring the Macroverse for centuries and that he should come with him back to the regular universe. That measure of time had nothing to do with Surfer.
Comprehension fail again.

But yes, you're right in this case. I'm wrong.
Though the guy who said Surfer traveled through hyperspace in an issue that the only thing that could be construed as hyperspace would be him falling to Earth should probably ease up on the reading comprehension fail. Hell, you just repeatedly stated that he was using hyperspace when he traveled through the cosmic swell and you thought he used a wormhole to travel across the universe.

1 fail doesn't amount to your dozens. The difference is that I'll actually address where I screw up. Whereas you'd think I barely posted anything to you.

As for the actual issue at hand, Surfer has traversed the universe in the time he's been a herald. I thought centuries was kind of long myself. Maybe a century, but probably shorter. But yeah, you raise a good point here, centuries is way too long for it to take Surfer to travel the universe.
Congrats. By your insistence to get one over on me, you just made a feat better, and you more wrong. So...

Originally posted by Juntai
As for his casual mention of having visited every part of his own universe previously, we know this is only hyperbole, as pretty much every arc in the entire volume involves him visiting places he's never been before and encountering beings and races he's never met before.

So you could claim it, I guess, but the previous hundred 140 issues in this volume alone don't support it.

Here's another one:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/SS_v3_141_03b.jpg

And surprise surprise, you ignored a scan. A scan from the same issue where he outright says he's explored the deepest reaches of the universe.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/SS_v3_111_09a.jpg

In 111 he almost explored all of space, and in 141 he accomplished seeing every star. Now he's a tour guide to the universe in his latest series.

And do you not understand what the point of traveling to places you haven't seen is? Do you uh think that maybe by him visiting those places in the previous 140 issues, that uh maybe it uh would fall under visiting areas he's never seen in the universe before and uh add up to places he's visited in the universe?

"I've visited every country in the world."
"No you haven't. I saw pictures of you visiting the Grand Canyon and the Roman Coliseum before on Facebook when you did it."
"What"
"You visiting every country is hyperbole because there's evidence of you visiting countries."
"I'm just going to go sit over here and talk to this wall now... you keep making sense over here."

I don't even understand how you think this is a point. In fact, him visiting all these locations should only back up him traveling the universe, not be used against him.

Did you read what I wrote? Surfer gained his speed while inside, vanished in a flash of light, appeared in a separate flash of light on the other side, and crashed into a planet at faster than lightspeed

Also, again, even if it was, your reasoning is that things going faster than light automatically enter hyperspace. So how is it possible that something exits a hyperspace tunnel and continues going faster than light? Following your logic it should have never been able to enter normal space unless it decelerated.

You've completely defeated your own point with your own logic. Why are you trying to argue against it if your gripes with it only contradict your own arguments?

It said Red Shift uses his uses his like Surfer his board, to enhance his hyperspace abilities. This is what is stated when he points his sword away from Surfer and uses it to fly away. To which Surfer's reaction is to hang on and ride with him. Then followed that up with "And now he's using it to open a portal". Once again a seperation of the concepts but both under the umbrella of hyperspace travel. Both used in succession. Which in another part of this thread, you suggested would be pointless. Hyperspace travel into a hyperspace warp.

In Galactus the Devourer and again in Annihilation, it was shown that Surfer uses his board's hyperspace abilities for his speed[in G;tD]

All it's saying is he uses his board for hyperspace travel. That's it. It's not saying he relies on hyperspace for speed. It's not saying hyperspace is the reason for speed. It's saying he uses his board for hyperspace travel. There's a difference.

Also, I said using wormholes and hyperspace would be pointless. Because they both function the same, minus the black hole.
I don't even fathom how you think opening a hyperspace tunnel inside a black hole that is completely closed on all sides is the same thing.

Here I'll explain it since you don't get it. A wormhole or stargate, or hyperspace has multiple points of exit. It would be redundant to use any of them in combination since all function essentially the same, except the Stargate doesn't seem to effect natural speed, and for most cases you need ftl travel to get through black hole wormholes... but I digress.

What happened to Surfer/Red Shift, is that they were trapped in an area with zero points of entry or exit. The only way out is to rip a hole in space. I don't get how this furthers your point.

And before you say it, the black hole wasn't used as hyperspace travel. It was just a ****ing black hole that Red Shift used to try and murder Surfer with.

And he threw his board out of the black hole... which is ftl travel in that same instance. Which you ignored.

Putting himself in the microverse was aces.

He escaped the pull of a black hole while being in the most powerful pull of it while being really small. 😬

And no, the Microverse doesn't exist in a black hole, which means Surfer escaped through the portal. In a black hole.

I like how you cherry-picked which Surfer bio you wanted to use because the other one at the end of Annihilation, lists space flight and ability to use warp speed separately. Either way, these aren't official bios, these are "Nova Corp" bios.

I don't care what bio I use. I was just reading the Surfer mini. It blatantly says he travels faster than light, which you said Annihilation says he couldn't do which was supported by nothing in that story. Thanks for continuing though after failing to back up your previous stance.

However, it's absolutely my favorite thing in the world right now that you made the separation for me considering one bio.
"He can fly at trans-light speed, he can access hyperspace"

http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/sonnendawg/media/Stuff/Nova%20Corps%20Files%20page%2013.jpg.html

I really continue to enjoy you defeating your own logic for me. Saves me a teensy bit of trouble.

Hyperspace and trans light travel are separate from at least 2006. Bio confirmed.

Also, these bios were actually printed inside the actual comics as opposed to being released separately or on an editable website. And they're still a ****load more accurate than most.

Stardust accelerated to near light speed, then used power cosmic to shift to hyperspace and launched into a portal. How you can go through all these issues of seeing Surfer do the exact same thing a 100 times with and still believe that wasn't hyperspace is beyond me. Comprehension fail.

It's right there on panel. Stardust's natural abilities couldn't only put him at light speed. IE, the entire thing you've been arguing is that going past lightspeed puts you into hyperspace. The race could not enter hyperspace, and therefore couldn't have interacted with him.

Really simple. Comprehension fail though indeed. You can't even follow along with the events of the comic, nor can you remember your own logic at all times.

So Surfer is seen going faster than light in yet another story involving massive use of hyperspace

Yes. But again, he was blatantly shown using hyperspace jumps, and we know what they look like. He was not shown using it when he traveled light years.

Address the actual issue for once. Was his speed, or was his speed not shown to be a straight line in that issue, where we saw hyperspace blatantly be portals?

It sure was. Which means it was separated.

Surfer using hyperspace to jump many solar systems away doesn't negate him traveling light years in seconds. It has nothing to do with it actually.

Also, you ignored Surfer outrunning a blast that encompassed three star systems nigh instantly.

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Branlactus/media/Raw%20power/Annihilation6-005.jpg.html
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Raw%20power/Annihilation6-006-007.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Raw%20power/Annihilation6-008.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Raw%20power/Annihilation6-009.jpg

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/Branlactus/media/Raw%20power/thanos_004.jpg.html

Like I said before, why would you even use Annihilation to try and further your point? Nothing in there backs you up. And no, them using hyperspace doesn't back you up either since even then he went light years in seconds without it.

Terrible example.

Cool. It doesn't really prove too much though. Glad you're keeping track of all these offhand hyperspace references too, including some I'm forgetting, because I'll cover the sheer volume of them in a bit. Do you see where this is going yet?
All you've done so far is assist me in providing example after example.

But that's a serious issue. I never denied hyperspace existed or was being used.

Now after you realize that you have literally one panel backing up your point, you're instead abandoning your previous reasoning and thinking that hyperspace existing merely reinforces that things can't go faster than light... without actually defending this. You realize your point is severely lacking so you think you can put everything that I've posted as some sort of proof that hyperspace existing means that ftl can't happen in normal space.

I have no issue saying hyperspace exists. That does nothing to defeat my point. But however, with all these hyperspace existing points, there's not ****ing one that says once you surpass lightspeed you automatically get thrown into hyperspace. Wait, sorry, there was one. But that's it. One thing that backs up your point. One online bio that backs up your point. Two pieces of evidence that have been promptly overwritten in later canon (well, the bio isn't really evidence). Which you know what that makes them? Retconned. Even if you were right, and hyperspace was a law, all the pieces of evidence would only make that retconned. That's quite a simple answer no? You using a panel that's 30 some years old going against newer scans. Seems pretty obvious.

However, I don't believe it ever was a law, because there's zero evidence of this. A writer can write anything, and that doesn't make a one off showing law.

lol at you thinking that scans that blatantly say ftl somehow assists you though because you can't adequately answer them. The first time you actually acknowledge their existence, has you twisting them to think they somehow assist you. That's pure desperation Juntai and you know it.

But it's hilarious that you think that Thor's hammer being referenced many years later as going twice the speed of light was actually referring to it only being possible because of hyperspace. Among other shit. Which yes, we will get to later.

Your ultimate defense of "Ha, everything you post is actually my proof" doesn't work when many of the examples actually go against this. Hell, I'll post later where Adam Warlock is cruising around the universe at way ftl speeds and then has to use hyperspace to get somewhere faster. Which is my entire point. Which has always been my entire point. Though it funny that there's a scene proving exactly that. But that might also actually farther your proof... somehow, so maybe I won't post it. Damn all of my own scans defeating me!

I guess we'll find out won't we?

Originally posted by Juntai
Now I'm getting lazy, and with my fever holding me down, unable to stay at the computer for any length of time required to rip through all your nonsense. I'm going to address pretty much all of the rest of it quick succession here. . It's just too darn tedius when I can barely be asked to sit upright to sit here and do all the [ quote ] [unquote] and largely reposting the same scans each of us has provided and writing the dozens of ways you're misinterpretating them as I did for the first half of this.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not only was hyperspace being introduced for the launch of the third volume of Silver Surfer, a polarizing moment in his history and had effect and mention or useage across pretty much every arc and appearance he has since been in, instead of becoming -less- frequently, the concepts became -more- frequent.

Steve Englehart is the only writer however to try and use it in a way to limit the speed in normal space. Which promptly got ignored by pretty much every other writer ever, except Gruenwald. Neither however wrote anything damning or law into the Marvel universe, and that's why you lack so much proof needed to actually show it's a law.

However, again, even if they did, that's called a retcon. Which considering all the stupid shit Mark Gruenwald did, it shouldn't come as a surprise to his work.

Originally posted by Juntai
Heralds who have been introduced since the end of Surfer's third volume like Red Shift and Stardust have also stated or been stated to traverse massive distances via hyperspace actually in Red Shift's case it's because he both flies with hyperspace speeds and also tears open space and steps through it sort of like Blink's portals, but Stardust has explicitly stated the Power Cosmic pushes him/her into hyperspace as I already covered.

Originally posted by Juntai
Characters like Ego who used to be written to plainly to move faster than light as well as being established as far more powerful than the Surfer is also written as accessing hyperspace in modern stories like that Astonishing Thor where the Asgardian himself makes a statement to the effect that Ego would need access to hyperspace to travel from the Black Galaxy to the Milky Way.

But this is great because Ego only gained the means to access hyperspace recently due to Stranger:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/AstonishingThor-3-012.jpg

So without me helping you out here, how do you possibly answer this when you've yet again, back yourself right into a corner?

And I could easily help you out here, as I know the answer to your post without that actual scan, but this is fun to me. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
The same is true for Nova, Quasar [Wendel and Phyla] and many others. In the last couple handfuls of years, there have been characters like Genis-Vell who are vastly more powerful than the Surfer, and even those guys now are written using hyperspace to travel faster-than-light.

Quasar is slow as shit too. Nova uses stargates which seem to be a little bit different. Mainly all Stargates do is make a shortcut through space. They don't actually "bend the laws of time and space". And Quasar uses quantum jumps in space, which are basically teleports.

I don't recall an example of Genis actually using hyperspace anyway.

Originally posted by Juntai
The idea that you blatantly ignore the massive amount of evidence that even you are providing in these threads -- though largely because I mentioned them and you ran to grab scans in some effort that because you're providing links and misinterpreting scans that it somehow gives more credence to your rather baseless line of thought. A complete divorce of the association that has been part of his character both in comics and bios since the 80s, [and before that during Stan Lee's time writing him as well!]. That when not only nearly every other cosmic character in the Marvel universe, including those more powerful or less powerful than the Surfer, as well as his fellow Heralds who have his near - identical powerset to one degree or another have been shown to rely on hyperspace for FTL travel in modern continuity.

The only thing I've actually just wrote off is the online bios. And even then I've brought up proof from comics to actually go against those. And you know what overwrites bios 100 percent of the time? Events in comics. No I don't give a shit about bios, but considering that's your entire point... or was before this display of "Hyperspace existing means everything is hyperspace" I've done more than enough to entertain the idea of it having merit.

Again though, you act like your word is law when you again only have one panel and two online bios that could begin to back you up. And somehow hyperspace existing again somehow make this irrefutable.
But you've ignored anything that unravels this, so how am I supposed to go against this? Using scans? Apparently not since those get ignored and somehow assist you.

Somehow Thor is a special case, and Ego using hyperspace means Thor's twice the speed of light feat that was brought up like 40 years down the line mean it was actually hyperspace. Because that's what it was secretly doing to assist you... it was traveling and hyperspace, and twice the speed of light in hyperspace is really important to point out apparently. 😂

Originally posted by Juntai
As for Thor, you'd probably have to go back 20 years or more to find a quality unamped speed feat that didn't involve his hammer flying him or him swinging or throwing it [which has magic access to hyperspace speeds!].
Question, where would -you- suggest Thor's actual movement is?
I mean Thor had the one feat where he ran from one spot in a city across the city 'in a heartbeat', which is what, a handful of times mach speed, but shit, how long ago was that even?
Then again, I'm no super-expert on Thor, either.
I'd refer to [b]OneDumb or Rage on those matters, because I know to concede that they're out of my depth concerning that character, just as I'm out of yours when concerning most anything comic related.
Outside of whirling his hammer around and perhaps reaction time, I never took him to be anywhere near someone like The Flash. [/B]

[i]Originally posted by Juntai
Thanos' powergrid speed is because of his chair.
Just as Thor's is because of his hammer.
Just as Ghost Rider's is because of his bike.
Just as Surfer's is because of his board.
Just as others are because of vehicles or teleportation.

And it specifically makes note of teleporters in the bios, so... Thanos is a plain old light speeder.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Sentry bio it seems that his grid was from his first appearance into the modern continuity before he built up feats and hadn't changed with updated OHOTMU yet.

Also the bio even mentions he threw Void into the sun. 😂
Like I said, throwing beings into the sun is a five in speed.

But to answer that, the Marvel.com bio is supposed to be up to date. What gives official source of all Marvel canon?

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm aware of how Runner's time gem worked, I'm also aware that what I wrote was word for word from that bio. Time gem or no, once he crossed lightspeed he was accessing hyperspace where speed of light is no longer the limit on velocity.

For your shitty Star Dancer analogy - yes, you can choose to jog and that doesn't mean you can't run, but when you do run, you're running in hyperspace.

He never even crossed lightspeed though. He was teleporting around at lightspeed. Space was shifting around him. Your bio is wrong.
Also, the bio says once he crossed lightspeed with the ****ing space gem he'd enter hyperspace. It doesn't make a difference if someone is using velocity or not to enter hyperspace with the Space Gem. He was subconsciously doing it and it wasn't even amping his speed.

But that doesn't even show she would be running in hyperspace. That's basically saying she prefers to conserve energy instead of hyperspacing everywhere. That's not evidence of ftl = hyperspace. That's evidence of preferable modes of travel.

Originally posted by Juntai
As for being knocked into hyperspace/ftl speed? Yes, it happens just as easily as someone being carried or a ship being pushed into hyperspace by a character or thrusters.

What

You think unconscious or ragdolled bodies just enter hyperspace even though as we've seen it's an active thing. Jesus Christ.

However, funnily enough, there's an answer to this as crazy as it is. Telepathy or energy has to be actively put into hyperspace for it to actually be in hyperspace.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SSANN02_16b.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SSANN01_22a.jpg

So unless you think energy is being put into hyperspace before it's shot out at an enemy... to destroy say a galaxy or something... laughable point.

lol at ragdolled bodies entering hyperspace and then they randomly slow down light years away or something though. That doesn't even make a lick a sense.

"OK, this punch is really going to hit me for a loop. Yup, I'm flying to the other side of the galaxy. Oh cool, look at me being taken out of real space here automatically so I can safely travel to the other side of the galaxy because as everyone knows, anything faster than light is automatically shifted into another dimensional plane that's actually really kind of a shortcut to where ever you're going.
*Winks at the reader*"

Originally posted by Juntai
But all of this in italics is beside the point, isn't it? It's just me laughing following you off on all your ridiculous tangents because it's so easy to poke holes in your debate and seeing what you come up with next all while claiming I'm not addressing every nonsensicle tangent. And you while you try to rebuttal these, and show more scans of people using hyperspace you've completely missed the bulk of my argument. Thus, proving nothing.

It's so easy to ignore all the actual proof and just claim everything is hyperspace so I don't actually have to address any of the scans, even though the implication of most of the scans being hyperspace is completely unbelievable. Also, Bran has missed the bulk of Juntai's argument here. Bran has. Not Juntai.

Not the ever changing, assimilating, and then spitting things out argument of Juntai.

Simply laughing me off though bro. My argument sucks. How could showing dozens of scans of people going lightspeed even begin to help me? What a ****ing moron I am.

Originally posted by Juntai
Given that you have already demonstrated an inability to read things that have already been said in this thread, and your failure to interpret several of my scans, and your own as well. I will spell it out for you:

You have completely failed at the task I put before you. You need to provide evidence that hyperspace was not used, not that lightspeed was achieved or surpassed. We know it can be surpassed, but you enter hyperspace doing it[shown on panel and in bios many times already], which may or may not be a portal/warp[shown on panel several times already]. So far all you have done is add leverage by showing everyone the exact instances I was talking about -- and several I hadn't even got to yet!

You have not produced a scrap of evidence that conforms to the constant upswing in frequency of hyperspace appearing in concept in Surfer's/Marvel's books, regarding both warps and FTL being hyperspace starting back the 80s.

If we were to break down the frequency appearance of hyperspace being stated or blatantly used in the same stories as other faster than light feats, chronologically story arc by story arc across Surfer and these types of characters, from the introduction of these concepts forward you would see that the position that these ideas are separable from the feats is completely indefensible. And your insistence that there must be something that states explicitly and unambiguously that Surfer and many others relies on hyperspace to move FTL on every single panel of flying in modern continuity is laughably akin to a divorce of knowledge in saying that Wolverine is still as durable as he was back in the 70's when ninjas could knock him unconscious with fists to his head.

Also, I don't need to do anything. That's your rule, not the actual comics. Though with that post, you basically admit to thinking a feat like this is actually hyperspace inside what a 20 foot radius. Hilarious
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/SilverSurfer_Rune-14.jpg

Do I need a separate scan to show that's not hyperspace or something? Do I need a separate scan to show Gladiator going 100 times the speed of light isn't hyperspace? Do I need a scan where Surfer is using wormholes to traverse the universe while suns are zipping past him outside them aren't hyperspace? Why would I? You aren't the law on the comics. Your logic is not the law on comics. What you're arguing isn't the law on comics. You've basically twisted it all up into a pile of shit, thrown it at me, and said "If you don't disprove this in exactly this specific way, then this doesn't count."

Also, you ignored Surfer traveling many meters through a portal in less than a nanosecond. Which would be absolutely hilarious if he went hyperspace to travel through a portal meters away from him.

You don't even have proof in the first place to use that stance. Why the **** would I need to abide by your rules to disprove something? Besides, you basically just defeated everything you said with the Ego stance anyway. You can't keep your points straight.

You've asked for scans of things going faster than light. Provided. You ignored.
You've admitted that things escaping black holes are faster than light. Provided. You ****ing dropped this point completely off any radar in the known universe.
You've argued for bios. I provided bios showing bullshit, and bios providing proof against you. Doesn't count because it wasn't this bio. Provided a new one. Let's see how this is received.
You said Thor's hammer was mach 32 and can only go faster because of hyperspace. Provided example of it going faster than light. Ignored. Then brought back up again that it was too old, while ignoring a scan from 2-3 years ago saying it's went faster than light by twice as much.
Now your point of all the ignored scans that you still haven't made any effort to actually answer, was actually assisting you because... why the **** not? Surfer traveling faster than light in a 20 foot radius? Assist. Sentry throwing Thor off balance with speeds far exceeding lightspeed? Assist. Surfer zooming around planets prior to hitting warp speed? Assist. Your entire point shifting from kind of saying that hyperspace existing means everything ftl is hyperspace, to that now being your main attraction.

Etc. You keep changing your goalposts, making no sense, and then changing it some more. You realize you made a point to note how old Thor's double lightspeed feat was, when all of your actual proof is from the 80s outside online bios? The hypocrisy in that is delightful.

Anyway, here's a good one that I mentioned earlier that shows my entire point with hyperspace. Actually this involves literally everything that could be involved.

Adam Warlock is flying across the universe at faster than light speeds. He realizes this would still take weeks to get to Earth, so he dives into a black hole to shorten the distance, escapes out the other end, and Star Thief says this is the first time hyperspace has been traversed. This is hilariously specific.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/05_1.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/13_2.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/14_2.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/10.jpg

This pretty much encompasses my entire argument. IE, that hyperspace is used when you need to get there now. Sometimes faster than light speed just isn't enough, and using that speed doesn't mean you're utilizing hyperspace. Not only that, but you said escaping a black hole's pull automatically puts you above lightspeed. This is fantastic.
Hilarious even

Here's another example where Firelord travels to another star cluster apparently, in an issue where sub space is explicably used by starships, but not for Firelord. Before you say it, he was only searching the planet at near lightspeed.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Avengers259_10b.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Avengers260_02b.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Avengers260_03a.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Avengers260_03b.jpg

Here's Nova traveling .8 superluminal outside of his stargates. Not that it'd matter anyway. But he wasn't using any "cheating"
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Nova%20v4%20004%20pg007.jpg

Here's a Monica traveling nearly a billion miles in a blink of an eye
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/6428/2695058-avengerspulsar2.jpg

Quicksilver traveling faster than radio waves that travel lightspeed.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ips7d2&s=5#.VSCIGXl0wdk

Mar-Vell escaping the pull of a black hole (though with tricks)
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Captain%20Marvel%20047-08.jpg

Quasar with an amp escaping a black hole that was swallowing the whole universe. While made of energy.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Quasar%2024%20021.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Quasar%2024%20022.jpg

Here's another one for your laughable point that Surfer can't even go lightspeed that you completely dropped even though it was the entire basis of your previous posts:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SS_v4_005_10b.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SS_v4_005_11a.jpg

He also traveled to another solar system light years away and back in that issue, but it didn't not say he uses hyperspace so naturally it doesn't count. 😂

Although on that note, here's some scans of Surfer traveling really fast without speed being mentioned. These are interesting because Dawn is comprehending everything around her:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Silver%20Surfer%202014-%20004-003.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Silver%20Surfer%202014-%20006-019.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Silver%20Surfer%202014-%20006-020.jpg

Here Genis says he's going to exceed light speed and shows his take off:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Captain%20Marvel%20v3%20022-15.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/Captain%20Marvel%20v3%20022-16.jpg

Here Firelord gets batted across the solar system instantly. Which you somehow think is an example of hyperspace...
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/NewWar-42-15.jpg

And the last one needed. Surfer traveling back in time is actually him exceeding lightspeed, AND THEN building up enough velocity to pierce the time barrier.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SSANN98_25b.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Stuff/SSANN98_12a.jpg

Again, the entering of different planes has to be activated, it isn't automatic.

There's many scans that back me up. That don't follow your "has to be hyperspace" theory. How many scans back you up? One. Apparently hundreds if using hyperspace somehow proves this. Because everyone knows reaching counts as proof.

Also, about that last scan. Surfer traveled in time with Durok when he was cut off from space from Galactus' barrier. Which means he exceeded lightspeed at time when he was most hindered. I could repost pretty much all of my prior scans to back myself up. But as we've seen, shoving scans it your face is actually a forcefield that merely directs your gaze to the word hyperspace. I'm curious if when you see a scan it just redirects you the dictionary page of hyperspace. It's like a popup ad.

I could also post hyperspeed being used since that seems to be just sped up perceptions, but if straight up faster than light isn't accepted, I doubt it's possible to convince you of that. Same with Stargates.

I could say a lot of shit, a lot more shit. But everything I say is secretly assisting you.

I'll just leave this with, I think Surfer and other beings can exceed light speed in real space. I hope this isn't assisting you though. 😉

---

Most of my argument was done before your last post. Hence all the questions. Not that it matters since I don't give a shit about getting the last word, I just want to change your opinion. And when you spew a copious amount of shit in a wide radius, the only way to not "get the last word" is to just not read your post, or the easiest anyway. Which I've done before to people. Unfortunately, I read your posts, hence the difficulty in just letting that fly.

But considering how much substance you say my posts lack, and the amount of pretending I was foresworn to do, maybe I did just quickly throw something together to get the last word. Certainly appears that way. Because quality isn't the game, it's last word.

However, in reality, I don't argue to get the last word. I argue to make someone know they're wrong. And on that font we both failed. Outward appearances would seem that I haven't changed your mind at all, and I know for a fact you haven't swayed me a little, so this was one big fail session. I'd rather you admitted you were wrong than having to resort to getting the last word that I so desperately need. I'd much rather have someone admit they're wrong, them get the last word, and if at all possible, have them go and blow their heads off with a shotgun because of their failure. Because that's why I debate. For the chance to have people feel really ****ing stupid and maybe off themselves, though I'm sure many don't have those same wants. One can dream can't they? It's not about my personal ego for me, it's about changing people's views. And isn't that what the point of debating is?

And no, I'm not saying I want you to off yourself personally, but in general the h1s of the world can.

With that said, Last Word

How its even being argued that Surfer or other Marvel characters cant go faster than light without accessing hyperspace is mind-numbing. Years and years of canon support hyper-space being a sufficient condition for FTL travel not a necessary one. Sheesh.

What we have here is Bran posting evidence of people going FTL but it is obviously being ignored. Maybe this is me just seeing this wrong but this debate was over with a long time ago. The only way this is going to be settled is via battlezone.

I don't think someone doubted that those peeps can go ftl, on the contrary, i think the point was that they use hyperspace for long distances and to enter it they need to go beyond ftl.

MOST writers have Surfer and other things going faster than light without having to enter hyperspace. Juntai is arguing all those instances are retconned. IMO, I accept that Surfer can exceed light speed (as well as other things in the Marvel universe) without having to enter light speed.

Too much proof pointing to them not need hyper space to achieve FTL speeds. It is near impossible to say every scene of going FTL was used via hyper space unless you have some concrete proof and none has been posted here. Yes, there are instances where some characters, including Surfer has used hyper space to achieve long distance travel within a short time but there are more times where this isn't the case and that has been ignored. Nothing against Juntai because he is a great poster but Bran has nipped this in the bud.

Originally posted by carver9
The only way this is going to be settled is via battlezone.

What I like is discussions where everyone has an open mind who's involved. Ideas being passed around with people being wrong with no ego behind it. People working together to figure something out. Magical stuff.
If more people simply discussed things then a lot more threads wouldn't be turned to shit.

If I'm going to argue it's gotta be spontaneous. And it's what I said, to make someone be wrong. It's not to appeal to a crowd. If I wanted to appeal to a crowd I'd just argue to one of the many walls here on the forum. Among my other reasons for not liking bz's. Which there are a few. More everytime I think about it.

Me and Juntai are done here though. There's more to be said on both sides but how much?
Neither side swayed the other side and hence what I set out to do failed. I think I won the debate personally a long time ago but I didn't change his mind. Unless you got a real piece of shit egotistical human being that you can rub in their face that doesn't mean much. Is a BZ really going to sway our own minds more than this? Doubt it.

Though I do hope down the line Juntai switches his opinion but it is what it is.

I think bran and Juntai should get a room and "BZ" it out.

I would poop in that room. Just everything I had at the time.

That would stop his advances imo. If not I guess it'd just be some seriously smelly homolove.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
😂 I don't even like battlezones, and I know you don't either. I don't even like arguing but me being a huge ass hole leads to that. Hell I don't even like debating in a nice civil manner, and that can only happen with like 2 people on the forum. Though that's preferrable to arguments.

What I like is discussions where everyone has an open mind who's involved. Ideas being passed around with people being wrong with no ego behind it. People working together to figure something out. Magical stuff.
If more people simply discussed things then a lot more threads wouldn't be turned to shit.

If I'm going to argue it's gotta be spontaneous. And it's what I said, to make someone be wrong. It's not to appeal to a crowd. If I wanted to appeal to a crowd I'd just argue to one of the many walls here on the forum. Among my other reasons for not liking bz's. Which there are a few. More everytime I think about it.

Me and Juntai are done here though. There's more to be said on both sides but how much?
Neither side swayed the other side and hence what I set out to do failed. I think I won the debate personally a long time ago but I didn't change his mind. Unless you got a real piece of shit egotistical human being that you can rub in their face that doesn't mean much. Is a BZ really going to sway our own minds more than this? Doubt it.

Though I do hope down the line Juntai switches his opinion but it is what it is.

Everything you've said is true but what I don't grasp is,how many FTL fts do you have to post for peeps (not just you Jun) to understand the purpose of what started this topic (FTL vs Marvel) and honestly, a BZ will not change anything tbh because whoever wins mind is already made up. Overall, good scans and posts from both of you all, enjoy seeing knowledgeable posters like you two exchanging words in a thread like this.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What I like is discussions where everyone has an open mind who's involved. Ideas being passed around with people being wrong with no ego behind it. People working together to figure something out. Magical stuff.

Rare occasion. Extremely rare.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift

However, in reality, I don't argue to get the last word. I argue to make someone know they're wrong. And on that font we both failed. Outward appearances would seem that I haven't changed your mind at all, and I know for a fact you haven't swayed me a little, so this was one big fail session.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I don't even like arguing but me being a huge ass hole leads to that. Hell I don't even like debating in a nice civil manner, and that can only happen with like 2 people on the forum. Though that's preferrable to arguments.

What I like is discussions where everyone has an open mind who's involved. Ideas being passed around with people being wrong with no ego behind it. People working together to figure something out. Magical stuff.
If more people simply discussed things then a lot more threads wouldn't be turned to shit.

If I'm going to argue it's gotta be spontaneous. And it's what I said, to make someone be wrong. It's not to appeal to a crowd. If I wanted to appeal to a crowd I'd just argue to one of the many walls here on the forum. Among my other reasons for not liking bz's. Which there are a few. More everytime I think about it.

Me and Juntai are done here though. There's more to be said on both sides but how much?
Neither side swayed the other side and hence what I set out to do failed. I think I won the debate personally a long time ago but I didn't change his mind. Unless you got a real piece of shit egotistical human being that you can rub in their face that doesn't mean much. Is a BZ really going to sway our own minds more than this? Doubt it.

Though I do hope down the line Juntai switches his opinion but it is what it is.

No, my opinion hasn't swayed at all, but it was nice seeing a real meaningful debate on the forum, and being part of it so soon after returning.
I think I was right and provided, you think the same.
I conceded a couple things, you conceded a couple things.
We shared some awesome scans and Surfer moments.

Ultimately we could keep going, but I felt it was time to call it for now just because of the treading water. Maybe we'll be randomly thrust into it again one day to finish it.

I don't know how it could be considered a failure for anyone though.

I know our dear readers loved it.

Cheers.

Originally posted by carver9
Overall, good scans and posts from both of you all, enjoy seeing knowledgeable posters like you two exchanging words in a thread like this.

I hate carver.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I hate carver.