Count Dooku runs a gauntlet

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
But honestly. As the foremost master of Soresu at the time, and his intuition, I can see him stalemating Dooku, not winning outright. Dooku will either find a way through the guard, or they'll both get really really tired. Since both styles place an emphasis on not expending energy.

In scenario 1 Dooku goes down at 7, in scenario 2 he stops at 8.

Here we go. I found some quotes from my copy of the RoTS novelization:

'He drove a series slashing thrusts towards Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine through kidneys . . . He failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet.'

'Perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving more than a millimeter than what was necessary, deflecting without effort.'

I'm not a big fan of Obi-Wan honestly, but it's unfair to say he'd get completely dominated in terms of saber combat. He did manage to defend himself against a Greivous her was moving at something like '20 strikes a second' if I remember correctly.

I assumed that it would be Kenobi by the end of RotS. Where he was capable of fighting enraged Anakin as well as resist his TK.

RotS seems to support Kenobi to be firmly above Dooku with lightsaber but this novelization contradicts a lot gcanon and a lot of other material avaliable that I have difficulty accepting it as valid portrayal.

During fight with Dooku he pretended to be ataru practitioner but ones he changed to Soresu, Dooku couldn't do a thing to him with lightsaber. Also, unlike movie, in book those two droids play pivotal role in defeating Kenobi. Those droids shoot at Anakin, which allows Dooku to kick him in stomach and as Kenobi cuts them down, Dooku kicks him in the chin and then accelerates Kenobi's fall with TK. So in book Dooku does not overpower him with TK but takes advantage of droids.

Grievous is portrayed much stronger, than in gcanon. Two council members were protecting Palpatine: Shaak Ti and Stass Allice and they coudn't stop Grievous from kidnapping him.

In talk about Grievous Windu in a way places Obi-Wan above even himself and Yoda. And he doesn't specifically puts accent on style as it is very basic form. He says that Windu created Vaapad to answer his inner darkness and Yoda mastered Ataru to overcome his physical limitations but unlike them Kenobi had no weaknesses. And while Windu is inventor of new style, Kenobi is "The Master" of his style concluding that he is the only one capable to take down Grievous in combat.

And Anakin. When he was half restraining himself, Dooku was barely defending himself and was getting Force exhausted. When Anakin completely sucumbed to rage, he finished Dooku, when he decided. Even Yoda and Windu couldn't display such feat against Dooku. And Kenobi leveled fully enraged Anakin.
It probably sounds like ABC logic but book makes Kenobi's performance look way more impressive, than in gcanon.

Sounds cool but Novel portrays every character as enormously impressive. Author puts so much poetry into fights that it feels like every single character experiences Oneness.
Dooku - center of the universe, summoned power from throughout the universe.
Sidious - black hole in the Force.
Anakin - "clarity", despite the fact that he just blatantly got enraged.
Obi-Wan - is who he is, similar to Ganner Rysode.
Windu - chanel of darkness and superconduit loop.
Yoda - fountain of light, avatar of the light.

Emotions portrayal is important but the author completwly overkills it putting so many beautiful words with little to no meaning to it.

And the book has so many contradictions with other canon and puts such importance into Forms that no surprice there was so many debates about it.

In the ROTS novel, Dooku was tooling Obi-Wan and Anakin before Anakin got angry and Dooku tired so I don't think he has a problem with Kenobi.

Originally posted by Arhael

He only thought that he tooled them. In reality they "suckered" him by faking their old styles from AotC.

And to what advantage for Kenobi? He was still disposed of by Dooku with near casual ease before Anakin and the Count began their final engagement. What advantage would faking their styles give them?

And in reply to the OP: regarding scenario 2, I see Dooku making it all the way to 8 before falling before the mighty Mace Windu. Vader is... overrated, and I would wager that Dooku's swordplay is significantly superior to Vader's. Also, his FL is a major obstacle to Vader's life support system (ala his death at the hands of Darts Sidious in RotJ).

Casualy? Indeed, Dooku casually handled Kenobi with the Force in film. However, it is not what happened in the book.

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

It is clear that Dooku outwitted them by utilizing droids. Both of them got distracted by droids and Dooku took advantage of it. In normal circumstances Jedi of Kenobi caliber don't receive kick in the face outright on approach.

Vader overrated?
He might have lost his original potential but he isn't any weaker in lightsaber combat. His reaction and anticipation are the same. Indeed, he lost mobility but he compensated it by readjusting his style and benefiting from much greater physical strengh.
Vader and Marek fought evenly. It took Marek utilizng Dun Moch to render Vader's combat performance and getting enraged because of desire to avenge his father.

Dooku wouldn't be able to utilize Dun Moch, he doesn't have Marek's rage and his potential cannot compare to Marek's either.

Moreover there is no reason to assume that Dooku is more skilled combatant, than Marek. Marek drilled lightsaber combat the same way he drilled Force exertions and there was enough time to become pro with lightaber and again his greater potential will give him greater speeds and strength.

Also, Dooku's lightning won't do a thing to Vader, he will
block it with lightsaber as casually as Kenobi, he did block Marek's, who's lightning is more potent.
Vader couldn't do heavy Force exertions like moving star desteoyers and battle meditation as it would put strain on his unhealthy body. However, he still has the same medichlorian count, his Force choke is as potent as it could ever be. Marek got choked but he was able to counter it with Force blast, however, when Dooku got choked by Opress, he couldn't do a thing to escape it.

As example to back up Vader we have Lumya. She stated that she can't be a proper Sith and utilize battle meditation on entire fleets. However, in combat she was as deadly as ever on level with Mara. And neither Luke nor Mara could simply handle her with the Force alone. And she was more of a machine than Vader.

Originally posted by Arhael
Casualy? Indeed, Dooku casually handled Kenobi with the Force in film. However, it is not what happened in the book.

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; [b]Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck. [/B]

The novelization version of the fight is C-Canon (" Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon"😉, whereas the movie is obviously G-Canon. With that being said, the scene depicted above is rendered useless as it is NON-CANON in that it directly contradicts the higher canon source.

I submit exhibit A for reference: YouTube video

Originally posted by Arhael
he did block Marek's, who's lightning is more potent.

Really? What evidence do you have that Marek's FL is more potent than Dooku's?

Not to mention that Dooku is one of the best duelists of all time, Marek doesn't compare.

Edit: Damn it, I forgot how to put the slashes in XD

I feel dirty inside.......

I'd say one hour rest is plenty of time to recover, unless he's been severely injured by his previous opponent.

In either case, I believe he doesn't make it past 8. He might not make it past 5 or 6 in scenario 1, if one hour doesn't provide a good enough recovery.

As to the Midi counts the further you go into the ABY books, the more often it is mentioned that significant loss of genetic material weakens one's ability in the force. Lumiya speaks to this over and over pointing out that it was something that both she and Vader had to deal with.

Exactly. That means that if Kenobi hadn't burned the hell out of Vader, removing significant body mass, eventually, he would've become the most powerful ever (as stated by GL).

But even as this happened, Vader is also stated to have been 80% of Sidious, in terms of power, which is considerable.

The novelization version of the fight is C-Canon (" Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon"😉, whereas the movie is obviously G-Canon. With that being said, the scene depicted above is rendered useless as it is NON-CANON in that it directly contradicts the higher canon source.

Really? What evidence do you have that Marek's FL is more potent than Dooku's?

Not to mention that Dooku is one of the best duelists of all time, Marek doesn't compare.

As to the Midi counts the further you go into the ABY books, the more often it is mentioned that significant loss of genetic material weakens one's ability in the force. Lumiya speaks to this over and over pointing out that it was something that both she and Vader had to deal with.

^ Kenobi has yet to prove himself a superior swordsman to Ventress, let alone Count Dooku.

As for the novel version of events, he Ko'd Kenobi without using Force TK, so that doesn't exactly help Kenobi's case anyway.

Oh and Mace Windu is the only one to claim that Kenobi is "The Master" of Soresu. And since Windu thinks very highly of Obi-Wan and was prepping him for battle anyway, I'd say his opinion is fallible.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan in Sabers, and he tools him with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Kenobi has yet to prove himself a superior swordsman to Ventress, let alone Count Dooku.

As for the novel version of events, he Ko'd Kenobi without using Force TK, so that doesn't exactly help Kenobi's case anyway.

Oh and Mace Windu is the only one to claim that Kenobi is "The Master" of Soresu. And since Windu thinks very highly of Obi-Wan and was prepping him for battle anyway, I'd say his opinion is fallible.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan in Sabers, and he tools him with the Force.

I agree. I wonder how he would do against ANH Obi-Wan. He surely can't tool him with the force.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I agree. I wonder how he would do against ANH Obi-Wan. He surely can't tool him with the force.

Most probably not.

But Old Kenobi seemed rusty in his Fencing skills and seemed physically weak. So I would still put my money on the Count taking the all out without too much difficulty.

Personally, I can see him making it to Vader.

Kenobi has yet to prove himself a superior swordsman to Ventress, let alone Count Dooku.

As for the novel version of events, he Ko'd Kenobi without using Force TK, so that doesn't exactly help Kenobi's case anyway.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan in Sabers, and he tools him with the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove to Ventress? He didn't even take her seriously as evidensed in their 1x1 duel. And she couldn't even strike him down, when he was without lightsaber.

She had an opportunity to kill him but didn't due to PIS. After that fight Ventress has grown stronger and Kenobi has always struggled against her.

He's yet to prove he's her superior.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which he managed to do by distracting Kenobi with droids, which makes the feat entirely circumstantial.

Oh come on. Kenobi can have Anakin helping him, but Dooku can't use a couple of droids?? Besides after the distraction, he went for Anakin first, and then Kenobi. And he attacked after they destroyed the droids. He was just too fast for Kenobi and KO's him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku doesn't take RotS Obi-Wan in Sabers in either source, at no point he overwhelmed him with lightsaber.

Many Saber fights end with a kick(or at least in a physical maneuver (Mace vs Sidious??)

Originally posted by Arhael
When Anakin gets enraged at Dooku, he desides to win but, when he gets enraged at Kenobi, he can't overcome his defenses. There is huge difference in performance, if you haven't noticed.

Teacher vs Student. Knows his weaknesses inside out. Completely different fight. Plus Anakin was much much more conflicted when he fought Obi-Wan.

We've been through this multiple times. Kenobi's no match for Count Dooku.

She had an opportunity to kill him but didn't due to PIS. After that fight Ventress has grown stronger and Kenobi has always struggled against her.

He's yet to prove he's her superior.

Oh come on. Kenobi can have Anakin helping him, but Dooku can't use a couple of droids?? Besides after the distraction, he went for Anakin first, and then Kenobi. And he attacked after they destroyed the droids.

"Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids" - Anakin is distracted.

"Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids." - Kenobi diverted his attention on droids.

"Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion" - He acted in next instance taking advantage of the droids.

"he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick" - He kicked both of them in a single spin, which he managed to do only because of droids. He was nearly Force exhausted and his earlier attempts against Kenobi didn't bring any significant result.

He was just too fast for Kenobi and KO's him.

Many Saber fights end with a kick(or at least in a physical maneuver (Mace vs Sidious??)

Teacher vs Student. Knows his weaknesses inside out. Completely different fight. Plus Anakin was much much more conflicted when he fought Obi-Wan.

Second, that Anakin "was much more conflicted" is your another assumption. In fight with Kenobi there is no naration of Anakin's emotions AT ALL.
Moreover, his emotions were conflicting, when fighting with Dooku and it is not assumption.
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteorstrike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious." - Dooku barely
holds against Anakin and gets exhausted.

"Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical." - This is prove that Anakin had conflicting emotions, that he was afraid to loose his restrains. Dooku was in desperate situation against restrained Anakin and when he succumbed to his rage, next instance Dooku lost.

However, in fight with Kenobi he did not hold back. He felt betrayed and his intent was nothing less than kill. He was getting angrier and angrier. Clearly there was no restrains, unlike in fight with Dooku. His "fury" was what made him much stronger and he had plenty of it, when fighting Kenobi.

We've been through this multiple times. Kenobi's no match for Count Dooku.

Not to be mean or anything, but I'm pretty sure the RotS novel states that Dooku had only planned one death.

Getting back to the midi counts again, it seems to be something that goes back and fourth in the novels. Over and over Lumiya speaks to the loss of Force ability, but yes, seems to be missing nothing in terms of saber skills. Yet in many other novels the fact that duelists must open themselves to the Force in order to be effective with the saber also comes up repeatedly, with those who are best able to finding themselves overcoming their oponents.

I guess it is a bit murky as to whether simply letting the Force flow in is enough regardless of midi count, but to me it seems that total power in the Force should factor into saber combat.