Count Dooku runs a gauntlet

Started by Nephthys4 pages
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? What evidence do you have that Marek's FL is more potent than Dooku's?

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'

Frying an AT-AT and killing everyone inside >>>> Whatever Dooku's done.

Originally posted by Arhael
The problem is that he never went for a kill against her. His aim was rather to tire her up and disarm. In 1x1 he clearly didn't try to kill her, he didn't even attack back. It would make even less sense, if he went all out, when there is Anakin helping against her.

Kenobi by his style and nature rarely goes for the kill anyway. His is a defensive form. He has to pass her defenses first before he decides if he's going to kill or or just defeat her.

Mace wasn't going for the Kill against Sidious. He was attempting to capture him (until the Force Lightning part).

Skywalker also wasn't going for the kill against Dooku. He just decided to "win" not "kill". Until the Emporer goaded him into killing.

So saying he wasn't going for the "kill" simply isn't an excuse.

Originally posted by Arhael
"under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."
- Clearly before the droids he couldn't do anything game breaking.

Yeah but he was holding his own against both of them. Kenobi's never been able to hold his own against Dooku let alone Dooku and a second combatant.

Originally posted by Arhael
"he used his last burst of dark power to [b]continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick" - He kicked both of them in a single spin, which he managed to do only because of droids. [/B]

Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

^ He went for Skywalker first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku was too fast for Kenobi? Are you saying he speed blitzed him? First of all he was nearly Force exhausted at that point.
Second, this:
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper" - If Dooku was such a superior combatant, why he tried to expose style weakness instead of simply overpowering him? And if he was "too fast" for him, why then Kenobi didn't get overwhelmed by that speed?

Yes Dooku blitz Kenobi. Your talking about an instance in the fight where Dooku knew it would take some time going blade to blade to penetrate Kenobi's defenses. He couldn't do that while fighting Skywalker as well. Not without a distraction.

Check this out: 0:14-0:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeuRxFiTaww

Have we ever seen Kenobi move that fast?? Nope. Dooku's faster and just plain out better in close combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
To land that kick Windu deflected Sidious' lightsaber away or whatever other move to create an opening for that kick.

First that's not always necessary. Dooku supposedly did a flying kick to Kenobi face. If he was fast enough he could do it, providing Kenobi's Saber wasn't already covering that part of his head.

Second are you suggesting Dooku can't deflect Kenobi's Saber aside to create an opening?? The movie completely disagrees with you if that's what you think:

Go to 0:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdYzGt19zH0

Originally posted by Arhael
First, novel didn't state that Kenobi had advantage over Anakin in terms of combat knowledge, which makes your statement only assumption.
It goes either way, Anakin, also, knows Kenobi's weaknesses inside out, and it is not asumption as novel states that they sparred countless times. They both knew each other's moves and weaknesses, however, Kenobi didn't have power of chosen one. So Anakin not only knew all Kenobi's moves as well, he, also, was superior in power.

The novel states they both knew each others moves inside out which is what made them so equal. The same isn't true for Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Also common sense tells us the teacher would always be more aware and able to exploit his student's weaknesses than the other way around.

Since Obi-Wan never taught Dooku and never spent thousands of hours sparring him, it's clearly a completely different fight which can not be compared in any shape or form.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, that Anakin "was much more conflicted" is your another assumption. In fight with Kenobi there is no naration of Anakin's emotions AT ALL.
Moreover, his emotions were conflicting, when fighting with Dooku and it is not assumption.

Lol exactly what was he conflicted about in fighting Count Dooku??

Are you suggesting there was any part of him that did not want to defeat Count Dooku??

Dooku struggled against his blows, but he had to fight off Kenobi for most the fight as well.

He could have possibly out maneuvered the holding back Anakin in a one on one.

But the fact is Anakin did not actually "beat" Dooku until he "decided to win" and had a pristine clarity. A clarity he didn't have while fighting Obi-Wan. It would be completely absurd to assume Anakin has that same pristine clarity while fighting his former brother.

Originally posted by Arhael
The problem is that you don't give any weight to circumstances and back up your opinion by assumptions. Dooku got overpowered and disarmed by Opress with lightsaber as well as overpowered with the Force by choke. Do we conclude that Opress is superior to Dooku both with lightsaber and power? No. Because there were circumstances of why it happened. And same Opress got his hand chopped, while fighting with brother's help against no one other than Kenobi.

What are you talking about?? I've backed everything up with facts. Your the one assuming Skywalker was in the same state of mind when he fought Dooku and Obi-Wan, which frankly is an absurd assumption considering the events of the movie.

Your also the one ignoring background and cirsumstances, like the fact Obi-wan fighting the man he tutored is completely different to Obi-Wan fighting Count Dooku.

Your whole argument is based on how well Obi-wan did against his former student which is a flawed one in the first place.

Because the fact is Obi-Wan has nothing else on his record to put him in Count Dooku's league.

As for Opress flooring and choking Dooku, well Dooku had his attention on Ventress simultaneously. Whilst every time Kenobi has fought Dooku he's only ever had to concentrate on Dooku.

So that example is again flawed.


Kenobi by his style and nature rarely goes for the kill anyway.
So why then bringing Ventress as example? He didn't even try to strike her back. He was holding his lightsaber in one hand, when he has no experience in Makashi. When she disarmed him, he didn't even flinch and had only mild amusement. Dodged all her attacks and got his lightsaber back. ALL her attempts failed and she ran away.

Yeah but he was holding his own against both of them. Kenobi's never been able to hold his own against Dooku let alone Dooku and a second combatant.

So did Ventress BEFORE Kenobi engaged her 1x1, where he was clearly mocking her.

^ He went for Skywalker first.

And does it prove that Kenobi readjusted his attention from droids to Dooku by that moment? Remember: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor" - Dooku's kick continuation was blinding fast, moment of distraction was all he needed.

Yes Dooku blitz Kenobi. Your talking about an instance in the fight where Dooku knew it would take some time going blade to blade to penetrate Kenobi's defences. He couldn't do that while fighting Skywalker as well. Not without a distraction.
No he doesn't. He was not faster than Kenobi. He failed to blitz Kenobi with Sabers. He was getting overwhelmed by both speed and power of Anakin's attack, while Kenobi wasn't. You said yourself that it would take Dooku "some time" to penetrate Kenobi's defences and he managed to distract Anakin more than ones. And after droids distraction he suddenly gets OMG speed that he can simply kick Kenobi on approach? Sorry, but what you are trying to claim makes no sense.

Have we ever seen Kenobi move that fast?? Nope. Dooku's faster and just plain out better in close combat.
Dooku was slower, than Anakin, while Kenobi wasn't. And there is no way around it.

First that's not always necessary. Dooku supposedly did a flying kick to Kenobi face. If he was fast enough he could do it, providing Kenobi's Saber wasn't already covering that part of his head.

Providing that he was not fast enough as covered above.

Second are you suggesting Dooku can't deflect Kenobi's Saber aside to create an opening?? The movie completely disagrees with you if that's what you think:
We are arguing book. In film the kick never happened, therefore whether he could kick Kenobi in film or not is a wasting speculation.

The novel states they both knew each others moves inside out which is what made them so equal. The same isn't true for Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Also common sense tells us the teacher would always be more aware and able to exploit his student's weaknesses than the other way around.

The style knowledge made them equal in skill. But it never made Obi-Wan equally powerful and strong, which gives Anakin huge advantage.

Common sense is that nearly every time fallen student defeats teacher simply because teacher is heart broken. Also, Kenobi had nothing new to teach Anakin. Also, in book the only weakness he exploited was prosthetic arm but it didn't give him any advantage during actual lightsaber combat.
Also, I don't agree with your common sense. On my training, when I was still considered beginner, in competition with one high grade student I overpowered him with strength. On competition with another high grade who, also, did gym for many years, I speed blitzed him and choked. 😄

Since Obi-Wan never taught Dooku and never spent thousands of hours sparring him, it's clearly a completely different fight which can not be compared in any shape or form.
And clearly Kenobi Dooku before but Dooku never fought Krnobi with his Soresu style. Definately different fight with Kenobi having advantage.

Lol exactly what was he conflicted about in fighting Count Dooku??

Are you suggesting there was any part of him that did not want to defeat Count Dooku??

Lol. You view things as black and white. Anakin was half restraining himself and trying to control his fury because of fear as stated by Dooku, it is clear conflict of his emotions.

Dooku struggled against his blows, but he had to fight off Kenobi for most the fight as well.

He could have possibly out maneuvered the holding back Anakin in a one on one.

Possibility of Dooku out maneuvering Anakin becomes meaningless, if we consider their previous fight, where Dooku utilized his TK to full extend, got disarmed and ran away.

A clarity he didn't have while fighting Obi-Wan. It would be completely absurd to assume Anakin has that same pristine clarity while fighting his former brother.

Prove he didn't have that clarity.
Spoiler:
Not by assumptions

That "pristine clarity" was that he did not need to hold back anymore. You give too much weight to poetry, read this:
"And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy" - Anakin won beause he succumbed to his rage, it is not some sort of unique state. And stop assuming about what Anakin had or hadn't during fight with Kenobi. He was consumed by his rage and there was clear intent to kill and no holding back. In both cases no "Jedi restraint".

What are you talking about?? I've backed everything up with facts. Your the one assuming Skywalker was in the same state of mind when he fought Dooku and Obi-Wan, which frankly is an absurd assumption considering the events of the movie.

Anakin got enraged, when fought Dooku. He got enraged even more, when fighting Kenobi. Rage is what makes him more powerful and why he overpowered Dooku. So what exactly I am assuming? You assume that Anakin's combat performance was weaker than in fight with Dooku and you have NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to back up your assumption with.

Your also the one ignoring background and cirsumstances, like the fact Obi-wan fighting the man he tutored is completely different to Obi-Wan fighting Count Dooku.

Your whole argument is based on how well Obi-wan did against his former student which is a flawed one in the first place.

Both have knowledge against each other, therefore neither benefits but only Anakin gets HUGE power advantage.

My whole argument is based on what Obi-Wan actually did. Your argument is based on assuming why it is not impressive that Kenobi defeated Anakin.

Because the fact is Obi-Wan has nothing else on his record to put him in Count Dooku's league.
Really? How about new book, where Kenobi fighting both Maul and Opress chopped arm off Opress and they both ran away? While Dooku, when fighting Opress and Ventress got disarmed and even got Force choked after.

So that example is again flawed.
No it's not because Kenobi, also, got distracted by droids.

This is at the point of stupidity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'

Frying an AT-AT and killing everyone inside >>>> Whatever Dooku's done.

The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Originally posted by Arhael
So why then bringing Ventress as example? He didn't even try to strike her back. He was holding his lightsaber in one hand, when he has no experience in Makashi. When she disarmed him, he didn't even flinch and had only mild amusement. Dodged all her attacks and got his lightsaber back. ALL her attempts failed and she ran away.

So did Ventress BEFORE Kenobi engaged her 1x1, where he was clearly mocking her.

???

When Kenobi actually defeats Ventress then you'll have an argument. In the mean time all we have is Ventress disarming Kenobi twice. The first time she could have killed him but didn't due to some serious CIS. The second she had him knocked on the floor weaponless, and needed Anakin to save his ass.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku was slower, than Anakin, while Kenobi wasn't. And there is no way around it.

Really?? Then how was Dooku able to take on 2 combatants who were both faster than him I wonder??

Re-Watch the scene from CW I posted on Dooku's speed. Obi-Wan's never moved that fast. End of.

Originally posted by Arhael
We are arguing book. In film the kick never happened, therefore whether he could kick Kenobi in film or not is a wasting speculation.

Lol He deflected both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers back, kicked Anakin while simultaneously choking Obi-Wan.. And after watching that scene you honestly think Dooku couldn't kick Obi-Wan in a one on one??

The fact is he penetrated Obi-Wan's Saber defense in that scene. So anything the novel says which contradicts that is non-canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove he didn't have that clarity.

Oh I dunno, maybe the fact he said to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you", does that sound like clarity in defeating Obi-Wan. Or Force choking his wife whose life he was trying to save.. Does that seem like clarity? Or crying while murdering the seperatists. Does that seem like a clear head to you??

The fact is he had that "pristine clarity" in a rare moment. It's you who would have to prove he repeated that rarity.

Originally posted by Arhael
Really? How about new book, where Kenobi fighting both Maul and Opress chopped arm off Opress and they both ran away? While Dooku, when fighting Opress and Ventress got disarmed and even got Force choked after.

Using an unpublished material as proof of anything is desperate.

Use that evidence when the final canon episode airs. In the mean time use something else.

Really?? Then how was Dooku able to take on 2 combatants who were both faster than him I wonder??


In book he was out maneuvering them to fight one at a time. In film there wasn't much fight before he Force choked Kenobi. In either case he did not overwhelmed Kenobi with lightsaber.
Also, it is not something extra ordinary to defend against two at the same time. Maul defended against Qui-Gon and Kenobi simultaniously and, yet, each of those two had equal speed, when fought Maul separately. Same for Ventress - fought both at the same time and even Force choked them, yet, couldn't defeat either of them separately.

Re-Watch the scene from CW I posted on Dooku's speed. Obi-Wan's never moved that fast. End of.

Re-watched. Anakin didn't care. Anakin vs Kenobi fight proves that they had equal speed and reaction whether you like it or not. And if we compare speed by videos, Anakin's fight with Kenobi was much faster and more intensive.

Lol He deflected both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers back, kicked Anakin while simultaneously choking Obi-Wan.. And after watching that scene you honestly think Dooku couldn't kick Obi-Wan in a one on one??
With lightsaber combat no. With Force attacks yes, after fight with Anakin unlikely.

The fact is he penetrated Obi-Wan's Saber defense in that scene. So anything the novel says which contradicts that is non-canon.
No, at no point he penetrated Kenobi's lightsaber defense.

Oh I dunno, maybe the fact he said to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you", does that sound like clarity in defeating Obi-Wan. Or Force choking his wife whose life he was trying to save.. Does that seem like clarity? Or crying while murdering the seperatists. Does that seem like a clear head to you??

The fact is he had that "pristine clarity" in a rare moment. It's you who would have to prove he repeated that rarity.


Ohh... In fight with Dooku he had Jedi restraint on and Dooku feared that he would lose it. When he lost the restraint by getting enraged, Dokku lost. In fight with Kenobi he had no Jedi restraint and was much more enraged. Stick to your "Pristine clarity" as much as you want, you still can't prove that Anakin fought less effectively against Kenobi.

Using an unpublished material as proof of anything is desperate.

Use that evidence when the final canon episode airs. In the mean time use something else.


Not published yet? Sorry. I guess those actual quotes were just from some random fan-fic, not from upcoming novel.

The problem is that he never went for a kill against her.

Wrong. You should read "Cestus Deception".

When she disarmed him, he didn't even flinch and had only mild amusement. Dodged all her attacks and got his lightsaber back. ALL her attempts failed and she ran away.[quote]

Its not because of his uber skill. Its just... maybe Fioloni's vision of combat. When Dooku fight Ventress after being disarmed by Opress, he also dodged all of her attacks. But in a whole fight he tries to survive.
I assume, that with your logic, he should defeat her very easily after he gets his lightsaber back. But he still can't (i mean when he still fights both of them).

[quote]In book he was out maneuvering them to fight one at a time. In film there wasn't much fight before he Force choked Kenobi.

Film is higher source of canon then book. And in the film he easily aout maneuvering both of them. Watch this fight again man...
ah, and look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIe2A-SnXlY

Anakin gets kick in the face, Kenobi gets force push. After few secounds Anakin gets another kick, and Kenobi gets OMGWTF KO by force TK. Maul needs those laser walls to separated jedi. Dooku not.

Really? How about new book, where Kenobi fighting both Maul and Opress chopped arm off Opress and they both ran away? While Dooku, when fighting Opress and Ventress got disarmed and even got Force choked after.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKc2-CQjgJQ

He's really superior to them...

Ok, how you can see Kenobi was unable (at this moment, coz season 5 its not published yet) to fight both Maul and Opress. He was also unable to catch Opress twice (twice with Anakin). He lost to Dooku (even when he has Anakin on his side). He also can't defeat Maul and Opress even with Ventress on his side.

And now look at Dooku:
Dooku was able to fight (and finally won) Ventress and 2 nightsisters, while being poisoned.
Dooku was able to hold his own against Ventress and Savage.
Dooku already won against Sora Bulq and Tholme.
Dooku just destroyed Ventress, when she fights him alone.

you still can't prove that Anakin fought less effectively against Kenobi.

He already prove it... You just do not understand.

Originally posted by Arhael
In book he was out maneuvering them to fight one at a time. In film there wasn't much fight before he Force choked Kenobi. In either case he did not overwhelmed Kenobi with lightsaber.
Also, it is not something extra ordinary to defend against two at the same time. Maul defended against Qui-Gon and Kenobi simultaniously and, yet, each of those two had equal speed, when fought Maul separately. Same for Ventress - fought both at the same time and even Force choked them, yet, couldn't defeat either of them separately.

Fighting 2 opponents off with a SINGLE Saber is Impressive and proves at least some superiority (probably in speed and skill).

Maul used a double saber to fight off Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. And Maul by all accounts was faster than those 2 anyway.

Ventress has always fought them both off with Twin Sabers only. Never with a Single Saber.

Originally posted by Arhael
With lightsaber combat no. With Force attacks yes, after fight with Anakin unlikely.

No, at no point he penetrated Kenobi's lightsaber defense.

What fight were you watching?? He was outclassing both Anakin and Obi-Wan together in Saber combat. Yes he needed to use the force to seperate them as he likely couldn't continue to outclass or match them both TOGETHER.

Watch the force choke scene again. Put it in slow motion. Watch it very carefully and you will see:

Dooku hits both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers aside leaving them both open for an attack. He kicks Anakin (to the other side of the room mind you), but CHOOSES to force choke Obi-Wan. It doesn't mean that was his ONLY option on Obi-Wan. It was just the most effiecient thing to do in the scenario.

Fact is if Anakin wasn't there Dooku would have destroyed Obi-Wan in a one on one even without Force Choke (based on that showing).

Originally posted by Arhael
Not published yet? Sorry. I guess those actual quotes were just from some random fan-fic, not from upcoming novel.

Until we see the episode we don't know the circumstances surrounding the scene, or if it will even play out like that.

Just look at how different the ROTS movie fights are compared to the Novel versions!

But as Zett has already pointed out it was made clear in the last episode that Obi-Wan was no match for Maul and Savage together. Heck Maul didn't even enter the fight before Savage disarmed him. Obi-Wan just watching out for Maul was more than enough for Savage to soundly disarm and beat him within a few seconds.

It would be too huge a change and completely inconsistent if now suddenly Obi-Wan can outclass both these 2 beasts together in combat (without some kind of outside circumstances being involved).

Whilst Dooku has already shown he can single handidly fight off Savage and Ventress together. Heck he fought off Ventress and 2 other nightsisters blind!

That's way beyond anything we've seen from Obi-Wan's swordplay. Like ever!

Put it in slow motion. Watch it very carefully and you will see:

Dooku hits both Obi-Wan and Anakin's Sabers aside leaving them both open for an attack.


And since you can't prove in any way whatsoever that "the opening" would be enough to do successive strike, which Kenobi will not have time to block or dodge, it means absolutely nothing. You can't prove, if Force choke was the only option or it wasn't.

Fact is if Anakin wasn't there Dooku would have destroyed Obi-Wan in a one on one even without Force Choke (based on that showing).
Fact is Dooku defeated Kenobi with TK, not with sabers.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Not how it works. GM lightning feats are greater than Dooku's. Therefore, one can reasonably assume that GM's lightning is greater at least in the scope of a forum fight.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The responsibility is on you to provide PROOF (or at the very least, significantly compelling evidence) that Dooku CANNOT utilize FL to the extent that GM has. You have provided evidence of GM's proficiency w/ FL (which doesn't necessarily equate to Dooku being unable to match that), but nothing at all indicating that Dooku is unable to do the same. Now once again... PROVE TO ME that GM's FL is >>>> than Dooku's.

Remember, just because it is unwritten (or is it?) doesn't mean that the subject in question cannot achieve similar results. And this is FAR from the same thing as being prompted to prove a negative.

Uh, not it isn't. I don't have to prove that someone can't do something. Thats impossible. You might as well ask me to prove that Dooku can't play the banjo. If you want something indicating that he'd be unable to do the same then the only thing that I should need is the absence of him performing anything close to that level of power. The absence of him doing it is proof enough.

And yeah, it is the same thing as proving a negative.

Originally posted by Arhael
And since you can't prove [b]in any way whatsoever that "the opening" would be enough to do successive strike, which Kenobi will not have time to block or dodge, it means absolutely nothing. You can't prove, if Force choke was the only option or it wasn't. [/B]

Because he created Exactly the same opening against Anakin at Exactly the same time, and kicked him to the other side of the room.

That kick alone shows how hopelessly outmatched Obi-Wan would be against Dooku in an all out one on one close combat, since Obi-Wan was never able to display a kick anywhere as powerful against Anakin (or against anyone for that matter).

Considering Maul, Ventress, Anakin have all been able to kick Obi-Wan mid-saber fight, I don't what on Earth makes you think Dooku couldn't lay one of his Uber-Powerful Kicks, especially when he created a clear opening to do so, but chose to land it on Anakin instead (the bigger threat to Dooku in that fight).

Originally posted by Arhael
Fact is Dooku defeated Kenobi with TK, not with sabers.

Fact is Dooku was humiliating both Anakin and Obi-Wan together up until and including the Force Choke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Wait a second. Me and Jedi Mom were talking about RotS novel and we CAN talk about it because it is EU forum section. If you wasn't gonna talk about the novel, then what was the point arguing my quote?
Fine. CW shows that each character can be caught off guard with Force choke: Kenobi, Ventress, Dooku and even Anakin. That Dooku managed to Force choke Kenobi doesn't make him superior by default and doesn't guaranty that he would be able to perform the same feat in another fight with him. Dooku got pawned by Anakin in gcanon twice. Kenobi put up much better fight, he even displayed equally strong TK to enraged Anakin, which is incredible feat. Yes, ABC logic doesn't work but nevertheless it shows that Obi-Wan wasn't inferior to Dooku both with lightsaber and the Force at the time of RotS, especially, after getting experience from defeating Anakin.

Oh, come on. Lighning strength directly depends on power and anger levels. Marek had enough power to move star destroyers and his rage was on border with madness, obviously his lightning would refect that.
Did Dooku's lightning kill anyone? Ventress and her unknown sisters survived, Oppress and Anakin were only temporarily subdued. Marek killed Shaak Ti with lightning in game. Instantly killled several troopers and destroyed an AT-ST. Killed a rankor. There are plenty more examples, which I am lazy to search. But in any case the facts that Kenobi and Yoda casually blocked Dooku's lightning and that Marek couldn't simply handle Vader with lightning confirms that it is not a game breaking ability.

[B]Doesn't compare? How about Shaak Ti? Council member. One of the finest duelists of her era. The most cunning Jedi of her time. Master of Makashi and Ataru. By the time of TFU by all accounts she became immensly powerful. Turned Felonia into Force nexus. Empowered felonians with Force potential. Casually countered Marek's TK attack. Her death resulted in exploasion similar to Palpatine's. On that planet she was like lightside version of Vitiate. And she lost in lightsaber combat to Marek...
So? Marek's combat still can't compare to Dooku?

And did she ever mentioned that it was greatly affecting her combat prowess? She said that she can't be a proper Sith Lord that could expand battle meditation on entire fleets. However, in
combat she was deadly, rivaling even Mara. At no point Luke or Mara could easily handle her. [/B]

Did you just compare Shaak Ti to Vitiate? Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Shaak Ti was a skilled swordsman, but she got tooled by GG during the CW.

Yeah that's a bit hyperbolic. She's not that good. All she did was throw some plants at him and control a Saarlac.

Because he created Exactly the same opening against Anakin at Exactly the same time, and kicked him to the other side of the room.

That kick alone shows how hopelessly outmatched Obi-Wan would be against Dooku in an all out one on one close combat, since Obi-Wan was never able to display a kick anywhere as powerful against Anakin (or against anyone for that matter).

Considering Maul, Ventress, Anakin have all been able to kick Obi-Wan mid-saber fight, I don't what on Earth makes you think Dooku couldn't lay one of his Uber-Powerful Kicks, especially when he created a clear opening to do so, but chose to land it on Anakin instead (the bigger threat to Dooku in that fight).


In CW he was getting kicked by Maul's cybernetic legs and after those kicks engaged Oppress with lightsaber. In movie Kenobi got kicked by Anakin and even disarmed him. Even if Dooku kicked Kenobi instead, it doesn't guaranty him losing.

Did you just compare Shaak Ti to Vitiate? Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Shaak Ti was a skilled swordsman, but she got tooled by GG during the CW.

I didn't mean to make her look like Vitiate. Only that she wasn't weakling, who Marek could handle with Force alone.
My point is that Marek drilled lightsaber combat from childhood. On top of that his potential is higher, than Dooku's and not by a small margin. With both this facts he is very skilled combatant like Dooku and superior in power, which puts him above Dooku in both lightsaber combat and the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
In CW he was getting kicked by Maul's cybernetic legs and after those kicks engaged Oppress with lightsaber. In movie Kenobi got kicked by Anakin and even disarmed him.

He also got kicked and disarmed by Ventress.

Originally posted by Arhael
Even if Dooku kicked Kenobi instead, it doesn't guaranty him losing.

Considering how powerful Dooku's kick on Anakin was, it's just another advantage for Dooku. I'm still not seeing where Kenobi's advantage is.

Kenobi's in Ventress's league Imho. That's not bad, not bad at all. Ventress is tough, more powerful than the majority of Jedi.

Kenobi may even be a little above Ventress, but he's clearly not out of her league. Dooku clearly is.

Well we do know that Kenobi>>Savage.

Originally posted by ares834
Well we do know that Kenobi>>Savage.

Screw you!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He also got kicked and disarmed by Ventress.

Considering how powerful Dooku's kick on Anakin was, it's just another advantage for Dooku. I'm still not seeing where Kenobi's advantage is.

Kenobi's in Ventress's league Imho. That's not bad, not bad at all. Ventress is tough, more powerful than the majority of Jedi.

Kenobi may even be a little above Ventress, but he's clearly not out of her league. Dooku clearly is.


I was about to continue arguing but amended myself. Because we are practicing Vaapad. We keep go through the same superconduit of opinions on me impressed over Kenobi's performance against Anakin and you unimpressed with Kenobi's being Force choked or kicked by Dooku.
Impasse. 😄