Sasuke (current) vs. Goku (at any stage)

Originally posted by Q99
Here's a thread that puts base-Gai at at least mach 5.8.

Base Naruto at mach 4.1

There's also apparently a calc that puts Deva path Pain at mach 5.3, but I can't find the thread for that one.

Stuff like Gated Gai, A's rush, and Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra Mod top speed all blow those out of the water.

As for Sasuke himself, he's not on that tier, but he's still pretty high up there when he body flickers.

And here's a thread that has the most accurate depiction of Gai's base speed calculated, so far:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13311964&userid%3A66591#post13311964

So this calculation is plain wrong:

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=715365

They made several errors in logic.

Since dadudemon's calc makes Gai less impressive, I fully support it. 👆

Originally posted by Q99
Here's a thread that puts base-Gai at at least mach 5.8.

Base Naruto at mach 4.1

There's also apparently a calc that puts Deva path Pain at mach 5.3, but I can't find the thread for that one.

Stuff like Gated Gai, A's rush, and Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra Mod top speed all blow those out of the water.

As for Sasuke himself, he's not on that tier, but he's still pretty high up there when he body flickers.

It is all well and good to say "Character A is x, but character B blitzed A, so B is at least y", but that form of reasoning is based on too many assumptions. We can say that characters faster than A are over that level of speed, but how much should not be specified, unless quantified themselves in a way.

Also, Sasuke IMHO isn't even as fast as base Gai, so bleh. 😛

Originally posted by NemeBro
Since dadudemon's calc makes Gai less impressive, I fully support it. 👆

B*tch, my calc is right because it is based on acceleration of gravity at sea level and Lee's actual "canon" pre-time skip height.

If anything, my calc is off by being overgenerous because Lee's clothes and the sand would provide resistance to Lee's foot falling down...so the 44 m/s or 88 m/s could be too generous.

Also, we don't know how long Lee was at a 'resting' state by the time Gai got over there so it could be much much lower than 44 m/s.

Still, my calc puts guy at 4-8 times faster than the world's fastest man: Usain Bolt. So Gai is definitely super human. Just not that stupid mach 5 shit the other dude posted.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, Sasuke IMHO isn't even as fast as base Gai, so bleh. 😛

You're not wrong: pre-time skip Gai has a speed of 5 and post-time skip Sasuke is a 4.5.

"God" says that Gai is faster than Sasuke so any calcs that result in Sasuke being faster than Gai (around the time the third data book came out) absolutely and certainly must be thrown out as that goes against the creator's intentions.

I'll note that's still just a lower-limit (i.e. it says Gai moved that fast, not that he can only move that fast).

Then there's also the Naruto calc....

You know, it surprises me that people underrate Naruto's speed that much. Their battles cover a ton of ground, people cover long distances in an instant often, etc..

And, of course, 6 Gated Gai is fast enough to throw thousands of punches in seconds, and 7 hit hard enough that the shockwave of his punch makes a kilometers-across splash.

It is all well and good to say "Character A is x, but character B blitzed A, so B is at least y", but that form of reasoning is based on too many assumptions. We can say that characters faster than A are over that level of speed, but how much should not be specified, unless quantified themselves in a way.

Well, doesn't that apply to early DB, One Piece, etc.? People seem to be pretty free with throwing high speed on a lot of series, but not the one that, say, has a fight start in a town, has two characters run for a pretty short time, then they make a multi-kilometer hole (Pain's moon) and the town isn't even in sight any more- all without even using their bodyflicker move, which is only used in close range.

I mean, I can see your point, but it seems to me that it gets applied unevenly. Naruto has a lot of speed stuff in it, and often compares quite well to many shounen manga people seem to reflexively give the nod to even if they in turn don't show that exceptional speed feats (YYH in another thread recently, early DB, etc.).

Originally posted by Q99
It is worth noting that powering up has never been presented as a method for escaping genjutsu. The method to escape has always been to cease the energy flow with superior control.

After all, increasing the amount a ton doesn't get rid of the small amount messing with your senses.

Superior control is another thing Goku posesses, along with a limited form of telepathy. Plus, he can raise and lower his power level quite a bit at will.

Originally posted by Q99
Early-DB Goku wasn't that fast.

I mean, he was very superhuman, but so's Sasuke.

Hmm, Kishi once stated that modern firearms would be the end of the ninjas, hence why we don't see things like guns and missiles. Now, gunfire has never been able to actually seriously hurt Goku even in the first episode when Bulma shot him in the face.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note that's still just a lower-limit (i.e. it says Gai moved that fast, not that he can only move that fast).

I'll note that it was fast enough to save his "precious student's" life and an argument from "it was lower limit" is quite fallacious. Saving one of his student's lives is hardly a "lower end" speed feat.

Originally posted by Q99
Then there's also the Naruto calc....

Which I should definitely systematically destroy. That calc has MANY more problems than the Gai calc. Seriously, I can't believe such stupidity is allowed to run rampant on OBD and those calcs left standing as "legit". It's as if no one there has a clear understanding of how real science or physics work and they just mash together concepts into freakish Frankenstein calculations.

Here are all the problems with that calculation:

1. Sasuke's arm is not swinging, it was stabbing: a stabbing motion is slower than an arm swinging motion. This is simple rotation physics: a swing has the arm almost fully extended. A stabbing motion has the arm bent at the elbow. The stab wasn't quite top down like the sword slices measured on Mythbusters so the benefit of gravity is not there to help the arm move faster. So even if the same exact forces are applied to moving that kunai as applied to a top-down swing, the arm cannot move as fast, at the very end, because it is bent (see forces applied to a lever arm, over time, in your physics 201 textbook) and semi-thrusting and semi-swinging in a rotation motion. Loss of length of lever arm? Loss of maximum speed. So an equal application of the Mythbusters swing fails here.

2. The mythbusters calculation measured 6ms to slice through 7 inches. They said on the show that they found 'the best'. I would take this to mean that they are among the best modern Samurai swordsman they could find in CA. Here's where the calculation goes horribly wrong: they measured the peak speed at which the SWORD moved through the bamboo bundles NOT their arm speed. They were measuring the blade speed. Because of how a lever arm moves in a rotation, the speed at the hands will be significantly slower than the speed at the tip of the sword. This is also a lever arm thing (like above) but it is rotational lever arms. This is known as angular velocity. The speed at their hands would be significantly lower than the speed at the tip of the sword...like...much slower. So in order to calculate the velocity at his fingers, you'd need to know the length of his lever arm and his velocity in radians. That cannot be determined from what we know. The use of this Mythbusters feat is not translatable, in a physics sense, to this speed feat from Sasuke because of points 1 and 2.

3. The speed of the sword, as mentioned in point 1, would be faster than Sasuke's stabbing motion because of the lever arm distance mentioned in point #2 and gravity assisting with the slicing speed.

4. The actual speed of the slicing motion was calculated wrong, as well.

7 inches in 6 ms.

7 inches = 2.54cm*7 inches = 17.7800 cm

17.78 cm/100 (to find meter) = 0.1778 m

0.1778 m / 0.006 s (this is 6 ms) = 29.63

29.63 m/s is the ACTUAL velocity of the swinging samurai sword.

So his math is wrong...and it is wrong against his favor. WTF?

5. Sasuke is taller than being portrayed by the measures. The blue segment being used to measure Sasuke's height is just wrong. Sasuke, in the first image, is standing with his feet apart. That can reduce his overall height. Besides the non sequitur use of his arms in the stabbing calculation, there is also the error in height that was used for the calculation. There's also the problem of him not standing straight up: his had is slightly hunkered. Then he is leaning slightly on his right leg. Using myself as a measure, I stood straight up (I'm 5'10"😉 and then stood with my feet shoulder width apart, with a lean to the right, with my head slightly lowered like Sasuke's. There was a 4.5 inch difference in height. Since Sasuke is shorter than I am, let's use 4 inches. That's 10.16 cm.

So the arm length measure now becomes different. Also, measuring with a rule on your screen is quite dumb/lame. The best measure, because it will be the same on everyone's computer, is using pixels. Just zoom in enough and count them. I am not going through the calculation, again, but 10.16 cm needs to be removed from Sasuke's height in the calculated speed feat.

6. Naruto was coming to a stop in the very next panel but was sliding mad crazy on the water (it's like he's skiing...just look at it). That means his final resting point was farther than the one where we see Sasuke. That will significantly lower the measure. Doing a visual, I estimate Naruto's distance to be about 3 meters away from Sasuke, at the most.

So what did we learn from this? 6 major areas of flaws that show the calculation not only has bad math but atrocious concept execution. As the variables stand, the feat is incalculable. We just don't know how fast Sasuke's stabbing motion was and we have no idea how long and how far Naruto was sliding on the water before we see that panel (look at the water streams...looks like .5 meters to 1 meter).

So the feat must be thrown out, in my opinion.

The best "base" Naruto speed feat we have is an actual second count down where Naruto closes the gap with Pain (Nagato) during Naruto's 5 second, on panel, count down. Why was that not used? I'll tell you why: it would vastly reduce Naruto's base speed.

This makes me wonder how many of the calculations in the wiki are either plain wrong or significantly off. I know with Edward's profile, they have his strength horribly under estimated. Edward says they are thousands of time stronger than humans (or a thousand). The average human male (in shape, not this modern sedentary version that we are, now..I can almost get 300 lbs, myself) can clean and jerk over 150lbs. Using a low end estimate of only 1000 times stronger, that means Edward can clean and jerk 150,000 pounds. That's 75 tons.

Why was that canon statement made by Edward, who is one of the most educated people in their universe (Edward said that the only person who has read more books than him is Carlisle and twilight vampires have eidetic memory (from book 4)). So why would Edward be a biased source or an inaccurate source? Based on the strength feat I calculated for his "tree pushover" feat, his strength jumped well into the hundreds of tonnes (not tons) of force, thus proving Edward's statement about "thousands" of time stronger to be accurate. That's just an example of one of the areas that OBD is definitely wrong with their calculated measures.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, Kishi once stated that modern firearms would be the end of the ninjas, hence why we don't see things like guns and missiles. Now, gunfire has never been able to actually seriously hurt Goku even in the first episode when Bulma shot him in the face.

Touché.

This makes me think that the ninjas are intended to be portrayed much closer to in speed to the measure I came up with for Gai: 44ms-88ms.

Superior control is another thing Goku posesses, along with a limited form of telepathy. Plus, he can raise and lower his power level quite a bit at will.

Remember, we aren't talking about Freiza/Cell saga Goku here who can do plenty of stuff. We're mostly talking kid.

Hmm, Kishi once stated that modern firearms would be the end of the ninjas, hence why we don't see things like guns and missiles

Nope, he stated guns would be the end of kunai, big difference. I.e. ninja would use them as sidearms.

Also, high level ninja have taken hits from stuff a lot stronger than guns.

I posted. 😐

Also, while Goku does control larger amounts of power, subtle chi use is not really a thing in DB/DBZ.

Guy=God. Anyone who disagrees is obviously retarded.

Originally posted by KingD19
Goku from Kaio-Ken level and up beats Sasuke to death before he realizes he's dead.

Even before that! 😄

DBZ characters were, bare minimum, mountain busters well before the Saiyan Saga.. Roshi busted the moon, but even if we discount that as PIS (Given that's by far the most powerful feat of that era..), characters like Piccolo were able to bust continents...

Originally posted by Q99
Also, while Goku does control larger amounts of power, subtle chi use is not really a thing in DB/DBZ.

Well, it's certainly not prominent compared to the island busting brute force tactics, but there are examples of subtle chi..

He was actually a pretty formidable telekinetic, causing Krillin to double over in pain in their first fight. Too bad Toriyama seemed to lose interest in him..

Kami, he recreated the moon, Kaioshin created a cube of ultra dense matter out of thin air, and babadi displayed global level tp (Which Vegeta was able to resist, btw.)
'
But yeah, the subtle stuff is rarely, if ever, a major component of DB combat..

But when you could nuke a city with the flick of a finger, who "needs" subtle chi? 😛

Originally posted by cdtm
But when you could nuke a city with the flick of a finger, who "needs" subtle chi? 😛

That pretty much covers it...they don't need things like Genjutsu when even weak-characters are far more powerful than Biju.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Do you have the link?

Yes, I do:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13311964&userid%3A66591#post13311964

Don't mind the typos but it shows am much more accurate depiction of his average speed during that "feat".

Originally posted by dadudemon
If anything, my calc is off by being overgenerous because Lee's clothes and the sand would provide resistance to Lee's foot falling down...so the 44 m/s or 88 m/s could be too generous.

Also, we don't know how long Lee was at a 'resting' state by the time Gai got over there so it could be much much lower than 44 m/s.

Still, my calc puts guy at 4-8 times faster than the world's fastest man: Usain Bolt. So Gai is definitely super human. Just not that stupid mach 5 shit the other dude posted.

And here is the destruction of the Naruto Calc (I list out all the problems and assumptions with that calc):

Originally posted by dadudemon
That calc has MANY more problems than the Gai calc. Seriously, I can't believe such stupidity is allowed to run rampant on OBD and those calcs left standing as "legit". It's as if no one there has a clear understanding of how real science or physics work and they just mash together concepts into freakish Frankenstein calculations.

Here are all the problems with that calculation:

1. Sasuke's arm is not swinging, it was stabbing: a stabbing motion is slower than an arm swinging motion. This is simple rotation physics: a swing has the arm almost fully extended. A stabbing motion has the arm bent at the elbow. The stab wasn't quite top down like the sword slices measured on Mythbusters so the benefit of gravity is not there to help the arm move faster. So even if the same exact forces are applied to moving that kunai as applied to a top-down swing, the arm cannot move as fast, at the very end, because it is bent (see forces applied to a lever arm, over time, in your physics 201 textbook) and semi-thrusting and semi-swinging in a rotation motion. Loss of length of lever arm? Loss of maximum speed. So an equal application of the Mythbusters swing fails here.

2. The mythbusters calculation measured 6ms to slice through 7 inches. They said on the show that they found 'the best'. I would take this to mean that they are among the best modern Samurai swordsman they could find in CA. Here's where the calculation goes horribly wrong: they measured the peak speed at which the SWORD moved through the bamboo bundles NOT their arm speed. They were measuring the blade speed. Because of how a lever arm moves in a rotation, the speed at the hands will be significantly slower than the speed at the tip of the sword. This is also a lever arm thing (like above) but it is rotational lever arms. This is known as angular velocity. The speed at their hands would be significantly lower than the speed at the tip of the sword...like...much slower. So in order to calculate the velocity at his fingers, you'd need to know the length of his lever arm and his velocity in radians. That cannot be determined from what we know. The use of this Mythbusters feat is not translatable, in a physics sense, to this speed feat from Sasuke because of points 1 and 2.

3. The speed of the sword, as mentioned in point 1, would be faster than Sasuke's stabbing motion because of the lever arm distance mentioned in point #2 and gravity assisting with the slicing speed.

4. The actual speed of the slicing motion was calculated wrong, as well.

7 inches in 6 ms.

7 inches = 2.54cm*7 inches = 17.7800 cm

17.78 cm/100 (to find meter) = 0.1778 m

0.1778 m / 0.006 s (this is 6 ms) = 29.63

29.63 m/s is the ACTUAL velocity of the swinging samurai sword.

So his math is wrong...and it is wrong against his favor. WTF?

5. Sasuke is taller than being portrayed by the measures. The blue segment being used to measure Sasuke's height is just wrong. Sasuke, in the first image, is standing with his feet apart. That can reduce his overall height. Besides the non sequitur use of his arms in the stabbing calculation, there is also the error in height that was used for the calculation. There's also the problem of him not standing straight up: his had is slightly hunkered. Then he is leaning slightly on his right leg. Using myself as a measure, I stood straight up (I'm 5'10"😉 and then stood with my feet shoulder width apart, with a lean to the right, with my head slightly lowered like Sasuke's. There was a 4.5 inch difference in height. Since Sasuke is shorter than I am, let's use 4 inches. That's 10.16 cm.

So the arm length measure now becomes different. Also, measuring with a rule on your screen is quite dumb/lame. The best measure, because it will be the same on everyone's computer, is using pixels. Just zoom in enough and count them. I am not going through the calculation, again, but 10.16 cm needs to be removed from Sasuke's height in the calculated speed feat.

6. Naruto was coming to a stop in the very next panel but was sliding mad crazy on the water (it's like he's skiing...just look at it). That means his final resting point was farther than the one where we see Sasuke. That will significantly lower the measure. Doing a visual, I estimate Naruto's distance to be about 3 meters away from Sasuke, at the most.

So what did we learn from this? 6 major areas of flaws that show the calculation not only has bad math but atrocious concept execution. As the variables stand, the feat is incalculable. We just don't know how fast Sasuke's stabbing motion was and we have no idea how long and how far Naruto was sliding on the water before we see that panel (look at the water streams...looks like .5 meters to 1 meter).

So the feat must be thrown out, in my opinion.

The best "base" Naruto speed feat we have is an actual second count down where Naruto closes the gap with Pain (Nagato) during Naruto's 5 second, on panel, count down. Why was that not used? I'll tell you why: it would vastly reduce Naruto's base speed.

This makes me wonder how many of the calculations in the wiki are either plain wrong or significantly off. I know with Edward's profile, they have his strength horribly under estimated. Edward says they are thousands of time stronger than humans (or a thousand). The average human male (in shape, not this modern sedentary version that we are, now..I can almost get 300 lbs, myself) can clean and jerk over 150lbs. Using a low end estimate of only 1000 times stronger, that means Edward can clean and jerk 150,000 pounds. That's 75 tons.

Why was that canon statement made by Edward, who is one of the most educated people in their universe (Edward said that the only person who has read more books than him is Carlisle and twilight vampires have eidetic memory (from book 4)). So why would Edward be a biased source or an inaccurate source? Based on the strength feat I calculated for his "tree pushover" feat, his strength jumped well into the hundreds of tonnes (not tons) of force, thus proving Edward's statement about "thousands" of time stronger to be accurate. That's just an example of one of the areas that OBD is definitely wrong with their calculated measures.

To get context, you'll have to visit the OBD links, in that thread, I just linked to. Click "post" at the top of the quoted post to get linked to the thread.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That pretty much covers it...they don't need things like Genjutsu when even weak-characters are far more powerful than Biju.

Point is, subtle control, not raw power, is how one beats genjutsu.

I think Current Sasuke is significantly stronger than pre-Roshi Goku.

WTF? How the crap did I end up with a double post up in here?

That's it, time to go to bed. I've been up for 36 hours..(maybe 37?). Time to spoon with the wife.

In the latest movie goku literally became a God so he wins. There's no arguing that

Sasuke's genjutsu>God.

Little late to the thread and I can see some people are fighting hard for their characters (like always). IMO Sasuke will lose to Teen Goku and up. I don't think DB Goku can get it done in time. Kid Goku always seem to take hits before fighting back. Sasuke has an opportunity against this version.

King Piccolo > Sasuke though, cuz Piccolo can muster up more energy attacks and isn't soft as Kid Goku.