Vitiate vs. The B team

Started by The_Tempest17 pages

That they were some of the strongest Jedi at the time isn't necessarily gamechanging when you consider that the leader (Braga) was a known pacifist.

I'm not.
Core abilities tend to scale with power, duh, the few obvious exceptions aside.
And I told you from the beginning I didn't honestly think Vitiate was a slow-poke. It was simply a snide warning that no matter what arena we take this debate: accolade to accolade or feat to feat, Palpatine's gonna win.

Your mom.

It was in-universe per Oct. 2012 issue of Star Wars Insider and the first page of the book itself (which I told you back in October 2012).
It's not bullshit. He beat Luke into submission and psychically coerced him into the dark side. And he did hypnotize Galen, it was broken. If being broken means it never succeeded to begin with, then Vitiate has never hypnotized/enthralled anyone either.

And I'm supposed to be impressed with Scourge, whose only feat at the time was getting his ass kicked by... a crazy old lady? Puh-leaase.

I never said it had combat application, I said Sidious's feats are better. Which they are.

You keep using Sidious' drain as an example here. If we're talking about which drain was more impressive, it was undoubtedly Vitiate's.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
You keep using Sidious' drain as an example here. If we're talking about which drain was more impressive, it was undoubtedly Vitiate's.

Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.

Over 20 years.

Source?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.

Had help? They sacrificed themselves (2 sources) or he mind wiped them (1 source). Either way, I fail to see how this makes his feat any less impressive than Sidious slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss, without any real understanding of how it's affecting them. Vitiate achieved his feat within a week.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
Had help? They sacrificed themselves (2 sources) or he mind wiped them (1 source). Either way, I fail to see how this makes his feat any less impressive than Sidious slowly draining the inhabitants of Byss, without any real understanding of how it's affecting them. Vitiate achieved his feat within a week.

That his victims voluntarily cooperated with the ritual makes it less impressive, whereas Sidious conquered his victims by telepathic force. And there were exponentially more.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That his victims voluntarily cooperated with the ritual makes it less impressive, whereas Sidious conquered his victims by telepathic force. And there were exponentially more.

Allegedly 8000 cooperated. "Conquered by telepathic force" seems less impressive when you don't really know the outcome of the drains since most inhabitants lived their lives regardless. And as for as exponentially more, you'd need to prove Byss had more inhabitants than Nathema.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
Allegedly 8000 cooperated.

The greater number of sources indicate as much, so it's the one I'm going with.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
"Conquered by telepathic force" seems less impressive when you don't really know the outcome of the drains since most inhabitants lived their lives regardless.

No one said he tried to leech them all in one fell swoop. Book of Sith indicates he was using Byss's inhabitants to supply an energy pool for dark side alchemical experiments. Using it economically would probably be the way to go.

And it is impressive when you consider he telepathically subjugated twenty billion people. That's unrivaled in the franchise.

Originally posted by GMichael2019
And as for as exponentially more, you'd need to prove Byss had more inhabitants than Nathema.

Per Revan, Nathema was alleged to have had "millions" of citizens during Vitiate's ritual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That they were some of the strongest Jedi at the time isn't necessarily gamechanging when you consider that the leader (Braga) was a known pacifist.

Being a pacifist doesn't make you weak. Braga was plenty strong, fighting a Dark Council Member for days, giving the HoT a tough fight right before she beat Vitiate, breaking Vitiates mind control. He's way stronger than the garbage Sidious beat. And Vitiate handled him, plus the Hero of Tython and 3 others with ease. Just admit that Vitiates lightning is better than Sidious'.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not.
Core abilities tend to scale with power, duh, the few obvious exceptions aside.
And I told you from the beginning I didn't honestly think Vitiate was a slow-poke. It was simply a snide warning that no matter what arena we take this debate: accolade to accolade or feat to feat, Palpatine's gonna win.

They 'tend' to, but remember that 'Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.' You can't just take it as read that being powerful means superior abilities all round. Sidious needs actual feats to show that he's better than those characters in TK, otherwise your point is meaningless speculation supported by ****all.

I know you don't, but nor would you argue that he'd beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel just because he's more powerful than him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It was in-universe per Oct. 2012 issue of Star Wars Insider and the first page of the book itself (which I told you back in October 2012).

I believe you're referring to the Swtor Encylopedia, not the in-game codex. If however you do have something indicating the later in-universe, post it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not bullshit. He beat Luke into submission and psychically coerced him into the dark side.

Proof? As I recall you just hear Luke cry out, which proves nothing, but you claimed was him being dominated. Anyway, a Luke beaten into submission is hardly a good feat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And he did hypnotize Galen, it was broken. If being broken means it never succeeded to begin with, then Vitiate has never hypnotized/enthralled anyone either.

Galen never did what Palpatine was attempting to get him to do. He didn't successfully hypnotize him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And I'm supposed to be impressed with Scourge, whose only feat at the time was getting his ass kicked by... a crazy old lady? Puh-leaase.

He was still a powerful Sith Lord at the time. He seriously mind****ed a powerful Force user with the power of a mere brush of his mind.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate had help from hundreds/thousands of Sith Lords; Papa Palpatine leeched billions unaided.

Vitiate siphoned energies of countless individuals/souls unaided after his first transformation. Get your facts straight.

As far as this contest is concerned;

Vitiate demolishes (very neutral POV); Mace is the only individual expected to resist for a while but even he cannot last long against this kind of foe who is packed with mysteries and Sith sorcery based talents.

Until or unless, Vitiate is vulnerable in some way or other, he is unlikely to be overwhelmed in direct engagements. The exceptions would be few entities but Vitiate might give them hell of a fight as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being 'the most powerful' doesn't translate into superiority in every area. Vitiate's Force Powers (in particular his lightning) are more powerful than Sidious' in my eyes. Vitiate defeated a group of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy [b]'easily'. Windu may have defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but imo he won't get close enough to Vitiate to replicate that. [/B]

The problem is that, in the context of this fight, Vitiate's Force powers aren't going to do much to help him.

Forgive me if TOR sheds more light on the Emperor's combat abilities that I don't know of, but from the Revan novel, there is nothing to suggest that he is proficient with, or even owns a lightsaber. Indeed, his combat experience seems to be crap, given that the Exile knocks his lightsaber out of his hand with a simple saber throw, with Scourge musing that she could have killed him with a body blow, and Vitiate only barely detects and shields himself from a droid's flamethrower.

It seems that the Emperor is so used to simply overpowering any challengers outright (on a dark side nexus, mind you), that he never bothered to hone his reflexes and combat skills.

Against the "B team", he can't possibly zap them all with lightning, and he hasn't demonstrated any feats to suggest that he could replicate Palpatine's speed blitz.

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And this is even assuming that he is > RotS Sidious in Force abilities, which is quite a bit of a stretch. When you take away mind domination and his Force rituals, and consider that most of his feats are performed in a powerful DS nexus, he doesn't really match Palpatine's "deceive the entire Jedi Order" capabilities.

Master Han I Do Agree The Maul Bros Will Die Ultra Easy Against Mace Windu That Funny.

Originally posted by Nephthys

He one-shot losers like Brand and Rayf Ysanna, while Vitiate easily whooped 5 of the most powerful Jedi at the time. He reduced those acolytes to ash from behind, so big deal. Your contrast is dumb, like me saying that Malgus > Sidious because he's killed people with TK while Sidious has only subdued them. Vitiate has overpowered multiple powerful opponents who are actively resisting him. His lightning is superior.

You forget that, even when his back is turned, Palpatine's lightning in RotJ is fatal to Vader, despite the latter's tanking Galen Marek's lightning in both TFU installments. You know, the same lightning that he uses to crush AT-STs.

Also, Vitiate's lightning ownage feats, IIRC, occur on dark side nexuses, and always (again, IIRC) occur when he has convenient prep time to charge and harness his energies.


He enslaved said billions over a large period of time in an indeterminate manner. It has no provable combat application. And Vitiate ensnared Jedi better:

Mind domination isn't allowed per the OP, and even if it were, there is nothing to suggest that Vitiate has the power to dominate Mace Windu and his superconducting loop. The Revan novel suggests that Vitiate is vulnerable when he's trying to mind-rape; while he attempts this on the less powerful members of the arrest squad, Windu or possibly Kit Fisto could lunge in and chop his head off.


'The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side’s power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side. Jedi Master Tol Braga’s strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil.'

Note that Revan and Malak were already on the precipice of the dark side, and a redeemed Revan was able to resist the emperor mental powers, first in the midst of combat, and then later for [b]three centuries while being held in stasis.

And Windu >= Revan.


Vitiates mental powers were also potent enough to make Scourge shit his pants at a brief touch. In contrast Starkiller was able to shake off Sidious comparatively wussier influence by merely being distracted.

Starkiller >>>> Scourge, who at that point lost to a no-name Nyriss, who was then one shotted by Revan into a heap of ash.

Granted, it's difficult to deny that the Sith Emperor possesses superior combat applicable mental domination powers to Palpatine. He is not, however, even remotely comparable in overall combat or saber prowess, and thus gets diced into multiple pieces.

To restate myself, Vitiate's combat performance in Revan is quite abysmal. He almost dies to Meetra's saber throw, only her instinctive protecting of Revan saving his life, and he almost fails to detect the droid's flamethrower. He relies on his raw Force powers, but against some of the most powerful Jedi in the mythos, and possibly the most potent vs. dark siders short of Luke Skywalker, yeah...he dies.

Sith Emperor Kill Them All & Go HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

Originally posted by Master Han
The problem is that, in the context of this fight, Vitiate's Force powers aren't going to do much to help him.

Forgive me if TOR sheds more light on the Emperor's combat abilities that I don't know of, but from the Revan novel, there is nothing to suggest that he is proficient with, or even owns a lightsaber. Indeed, his combat experience seems to be crap, given that the Exile knocks his lightsaber out of his hand with a simple saber throw, with Scourge musing that she could have killed him with a body blow, and Vitiate only barely detects and shields himself from a droid's flamethrower.

It seems that the Emperor is so used to simply overpowering any challengers outright (on a dark side nexus, mind you), that he never bothered to hone his reflexes and combat skills.

Against the "B team", he can't possibly zap them all with lightning, and he hasn't demonstrated any feats to suggest that he could replicate Palpatine's speed blitz.

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And this is even assuming that he is > RotS Sidious in Force abilities, which is quite a bit of a stretch. When you take away mind domination and his Force rituals, and consider that most of his feats are performed in a powerful DS nexus, he doesn't really match Palpatine's "deceive the entire Jedi Order" capabilities.

YouTube video

9.40

I see no reason why he won't replicate his victory. In fact, given that he gets time to prepare while they fight through his heavily fortified and well-defended space station, he should be capable of owning this team with little difficulty, as he did against Darth Lokess and the rest of the eleven Dark Council:

'During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.'

(SWTOR Encyclopedia, Page 156)

Furthermore, its false that Vitiate doesn't know how to use a lightsaber. While possessing Kira Carsen his first instinct is to run up and attack the Hero of Tython in lightsaber combat. And his reflexes seem fine given that in all of his fights he's shown himself capable of repelling attempts to blitz him. Furthermore during Lord Renge's rebellion, Vitiate was able to disarm the former Sith Executioner and kill him with his own sword. That Meetra nearly ended him was because he was distracted and didn't even know she was there.

As for Sidious 'deceiving the Jedi Order', so did Lumiya and Caedus. Walked right up to Luke and he didn't sense a thing. Big Deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
YouTube video

9.40

I see no reason why he won't replicate his victory. In fact, given that he gets time to prepare while they fight through his heavily fortified and well-defended space station, he should be capable of owning this team with little difficulty, as he did against Darth Lokess and the rest of the eleven Dark Council:

It takes him several seconds to overpower the Jedi.

In that timespan, Mace Windu, who is more powerful than any of the Jedi in the scene, could lunge in and decapitate him.


'During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.'

(SWTOR Encyclopedia, Page 156)

That doesn't really mean that he engages them all in a fair fight and defeats them using his raw abilities. He could have easily rigged a thermal detonator.

Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council? Or that he couldn't see through Scourge's deception after 3 centuries? Or that he is manipulated by Revan in stasis, and can't dominate his mind for the three hundred years he has him as a prisoner?

It's not relevant to this thread, but he isn't mind dominating Windu.


Furthermore, its false that Vitiate doesn't know how to use a lightsaber. While possessing Kira Carsen his first instinct is to run up and attack the Hero of Tython in lightsaber combat. And his reflexes seem fine given that in all of his fights he's shown himself capable of repelling attempts to blitz him. Furthermore during Lord Renge's rebellion, Vitiate was able to disarm the former Sith Executioner and kill him with his own sword. That Meetra nearly ended him was because he was distracted and didn't even know she was there.

I didn't know of these feats, but none of them suggest that he's a match for vaapad+shatterpoint Mace Windu. He seemed to try to avoid matching Revan with a blade, suggesting that he, knowing his former servant's capabilities, considered the possibility that he was outmatched.

Remember that Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, presumably in overall combat ability, since you're arguing that Vitiate is stronger than him in the Force.


As for Sidious 'deceiving the Jedi Order', so did Lumiya and Caedus. Walked right up to Luke and he didn't sense a thing. Big Deal.

It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council?

It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

A knock down point I think. Mace, clearly wins.

Originally posted by Master Han
You forget that, even when his back is turned, Palpatine's lightning in RotJ is fatal to Vader, despite the latter's tanking Galen Marek's lightning in both TFU installments. You know, the same lightning that he uses to crush AT-STs.

Also, Vitiate's lightning ownage feats, IIRC, occur on dark side nexuses, and always (again, IIRC) occur when he has convenient prep time to charge and harness his energies.

Vader's lightning was insulated from lightning in those games. In TFU2 novel its revealed that Starkiller is able to down Vader by attacking him with lightning through a breach in his suit. When Palpatine down Vader in RotJ, his suit is likewise compromised.

The above video of Vitiate defeating what two separate sources confirm to be a team of 5 the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (and another quote mentions that he defeated them all easily[/]) did not take place upon a darkside nexus, but upon Vitiates space station, which is where this thread takes place.

Originally posted by Master Han
[B]Mind domination isn't allowed per the OP, and even if it were, there is nothing to suggest that Vitiate has the power to dominate Mace Windu and his superconducting loop. The Revan novel suggests that Vitiate is vulnerable when he's trying to mind-rape; while he attempts this on the less powerful members of the arrest squad, Windu or possibly Kit Fisto could lunge in and chop his head off.

I'm well aware. Tempest and I are not actually discussing this thread, but are once against comparing Sidious and Vitiates respective abilities.

Also Vitiate was only vulnerable because Revan knew how to resist him. Earlier in the book Scourge was reduced to a quivering heap upon mere contact with Vitiates mind. If he uses it on this team, he'll use it on all of them because he isn't dumb enough to leave himself vulnerable, and they will all be incapacitated in a similar manner.

But as you said, its not allowed in this thread so this is an irrelevant discussion.

Originally posted by Master Han
Note that Revan and Malak were already on the precipice of the dark side, and a redeemed Revan was able to resist the emperor mental powers, first in the midst of combat, and then later for [b]three centuries while being held in stasis.

And Windu >= Revan.[/b]

Revan stated that he knew how to resist Vitiates mental domination because he's already experienced it. Windu has no such experience, and no feats of mental resistance at all.

Originally posted by Master Han
Starkiller >>>> Scourge, who at that point lost to a no-name Nyriss, who was then one shotted by Revan into a heap of ash.

True.

Originally posted by Master Han
Granted, it's difficult to deny that the Sith Emperor possesses superior combat applicable mental domination powers to Palpatine. He is not, however, even remotely comparable in overall combat or saber prowess, and thus gets diced into multiple pieces.

I've never claimed that he was comparable in lightsaber combat. I do however think that his above ownage of a team of the most powerful Jedi in seconds with ease suggests a comparable combat prowess. What Sidious did with the lightsaber, Vitiate more or less replicated with the Force. Except that he didn't get his ass kicked of course. 😉

Originally posted by Master Han
To restate myself, Vitiate's combat performance in Revan is quite abysmal. He almost dies to Meetra's saber throw, only her instinctive protecting of Revan saving his life, and he almost fails to detect the droid's flamethrower. He relies on his raw Force powers, but against some of the most powerful Jedi in the mythos, and possibly [b]the most potent vs. dark siders short of Luke Skywalker, yeah...he dies. [/B]

Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader's lightning was insulated from lightning in those games. In TFU2 novel its revealed that Starkiller is able to down Vader by attacking him with lightning through a breach in his suit. When Palpatine down Vader in RotJ, his suit is likewise compromised.

Interesting. I didn't know of that.

Still, however, while Vitiate's lightning have a powerful AoE quality to it, Darth Sidious was able to stretch a vaapad amped Windu to his limits, and against non-lightsaber-aided defenses, you need the likes of Yoda to turn it back on him.

There's nothing to suggest that Vitiate could take them all out simultaneously. Even the Jedi who confront him resist his lightning for a significant period of time, and they're vastly weaker than this arrest squad.

Also, note that even a poisoned (IIRC) Dooku was able to disarm three nightsisters with lightning. Granted, they weren't the formidable Jedi masters Vitiate faced, but I think you're overrating his feat here.


The above video of Vitiate defeating what two separate sources confirm to be a team of 5 the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (and another quote mentions that he defeated them all [b]easily[/]) did not take place upon a darkside nexus, but upon Vitiates space station, which is where this thread takes place.

Yeah, fair enough; I have TOR game, but never actually bothered to open it.

Maybe that was a good idea, because it's free now. 💃


I'm well aware. Tempest and I are not actually discussing this thread, but are once against comparing Sidious and Vitiates respective abilities.

And I'd argue that Vitiate exceeds Sidious in mental strength and maybe rivals him in Force lightning, but is inferior at everything else.

He's also a crap tactician, given his performance in the Revan novel.


I've never claimed that he was comparable in lightsaber combat. I do however think that his above ownage of a team of the most powerful Jedi in seconds with ease suggests a comparable combat prowess. What Sidious did with the lightsaber, Vitiate more or less replicated with the Force. Except that he didn't get his ass kicked of course. 😉

Right, because his taking out several powerful but ultimately inferior Jedi does not equate to his being able to take out the arrest squad. While he's busy killing Kit Fisto and co., Windu decapitates him.

This especially applies if they play it smart and flank him, instead of standing clumped together and talking trash.