Vitiate vs. The B team

Originally posted by Master Han
It takes him several seconds to overpower the Jedi.

In that timespan, Mace Windu, who is more powerful than any of the Jedi in the scene, could lunge in and decapitate him.

While defending himself from the Lightning Storm? 😉

Furthermore, Vitiate beat those Jedi 'easily'. If he unleashed his full power on the B team, after they'd already fought through the space station, he would annihilate most of them and eventually overpower Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
That doesn't really mean that he engages them all in a fair fight and defeats them using his raw abilities. He could have easily rigged a thermal detonator.

😬

Yes, Vitiate took out the entire Dark Council... with a thermal detonator. That's.... plausible.

Of course he doesn't beat them in a fair fight. He annihilates them from inside his citadel. I wasn't arguing about a fair fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, isn't it a rather telling indication of Vitiate's limited mind domination capabilities in that he doesn't bother to just mind control his council? Or that he couldn't see through Scourge's deception after 3 centuries? Or that [b]he is manipulated by Revan in stasis, and can't dominate his mind for the three hundred years he has him as a prisoner?

It's not relevant to this thread, but he isn't mind dominating Windu.[/b]

I'm not sure why you're talking about mental domination here. He didn't do that because he wanted to send a message.

Originally posted by Master Han
I didn't know of these feats, but none of them suggest that he's a match for vaapad+shatterpoint Mace Windu. He seemed to try to avoid matching Revan with a blade, suggesting that he, knowing his former servant's capabilities, considered the possibility that he was outmatched.

Remember that Sidious is still canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, presumably in overall combat ability, since you're arguing that Vitiate is stronger than him in the Force.

I didn't say he was. I have openly admitted that Vitiate has lackluster lightsaber feats. I was just responding to your suggestion that Vitiate isn't even proficient with a lightsaber. He clearly is. Against the Hero of Tython, he even shows off by doing a fancy lightsaber twirl!

Interesting. I thought you were Nebaris, but this paragraph suggests differently. And I'm not arguing that he's stronger in the Force, just that he is more focused on Force Powers and thus more proficient and devastating with them.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's not just deceiving; he also literally clouded all of their minds and perceptions. Indeed, the RotS novelization suggests that he can lift the "shroud of the dark side" at will.

This was also done by the First Son of the Emperor's Children, a being imbued with but a portion of the Sith Emperor's might. He was able to shield hundreds of the Emperor's Children from Jedi detection and cloud their senses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While defending himself from the Lightning Storm? 😉

Furthermore, Vitiate beat those Jedi 'easily'. If he unleashed his full power on the B team, after they'd already fought through the space station, he would annihilate most of them and eventually overpower Windu.

That's speculation. Windu turned back Sidious's focused lightning at point blank range and scarred his face.

Yes, Vitiate took out the entire Dark Council... with a thermal detonator. That's.... plausible.

The point is that he mysteriously kills them when nobody is looking doesn't mean that he got in front of them and said "ROFL look at me, Imma kill you all now", and that they said "lol no, we're sith, so we're going to work perfectly as a team and attack you all with perfect coordination", and then he dices them up.

He was in his fortress; he had numerous resources beyond his own raw power.

So I don't see how we can quantity the feat.

I'm not sure why you're talking about mental domination here. He didn't do that because he wanted to send a message.

I meant in general; he never bothers to mind control the council, or even Scourge.

I didn't say he was. I have openly admitted that Vitiate has lackluster lightsaber feats. I was just responding to your suggestion that Vitiate isn't even proficient with a lightsaber. He clearly is. Against the Hero of Tython, he even shows off by doing a fancy lightsaber twirl!

OK, fair enough.

He still loses to Windu in a duel, though. Again, he has to have massively greater lightning than Palpatine to overpower all the Jedi at once, when Sidious couldn't even off Windu at point blank range.

Interesting. I thought you were Nebaris, but this paragraph suggests differently. And I'm not arguing that he's stronger in the Force, just that he is more focused on Force Powers and thus more proficient and devastating with them.

But not to the extent that he can take them all out before they close the distance.

This was also done by the First Son of the Emperor's Children, a being imbued with but a portion of the Sith Emperor's might. He was able to shield hundreds of the Emperor's Children from Jedi detection and cloud their senses.

Interesting. Again, I'm not very up to date with TOR stuff.

Originally posted by Master Han
Interesting. I didn't know of that.

Still, however, while Vitiate's lightning have a powerful AoE quality to it, Darth Sidious was able to stretch a vaapad amped Windu [b]to his limits, and against non-lightsaber-aided defenses, you need the likes of Yoda to turn it back on him.[/b]

And Vitiate's lightning, being stronger, will overpower Windu. Remember that Vitiates lightning was described as 'infinitely more powerful' than Nyriss' own lightning, which was able to tear through her own Force Shield (you can say her lightning was amped by the nexus, but her shield would also have been amped, thus cancelling out the amp) and disintegrate her. Vitiates lightning is the most powerful in the Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
There's nothing to suggest that Vitiate could take them all out simultaneously. Even the Jedi who confront him resist his lightning for a significant period of time, and they're vastly weaker than this arrest squad.

They're not vastly weaker. As per the Swtor Encyclopedia and the Jedi Knight Act II screen from Swtor, the strike team that confronts the Emperor is made up of 'the strongest', 'most powerful and resolute Jedi in the galaxy'.

And he beat all of them at the same time easily.

Originally posted by Master Han
Also, note that even a poisoned (IIRC) Dooku was able to disarm three nightsisters with lightning. Granted, they weren't the formidable Jedi masters Vitiate faced, but I think you're overrating his feat here.

I don't. Overpowering 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once is a hugely impressive feat. Dooku doing likewise with those Nightsisters (in desperation), is also a good feat and is rightly brought up as such.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, fair enough; I have TOR game, but never actually bothered to open it.

Maybe that was a good idea, because it's free now. 💃

You should at least spend some money on the game, to bump you up from being a Free-player. The restrictions otherwise are tyrannical.

Originally posted by Master Han
And I'd argue that Vitiate exceeds Sidious in mental strength and maybe rivals him in Force lightning, but is inferior at everything else.

He's also a crap tactician, given his performance in the Revan novel.

He also destroy a huge temple with his TK in Swtor despite being weakened, exhausted after fighting the HoT and practically cut in half. I'd say he's comparable in TK.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right, because his taking out several powerful but ultimately inferior Jedi does not equate to his being able to take out the arrest squad. While he's busy killing Kit Fisto and co., Windu decapitates him.

This especially applies if they play it smart and flank him, instead of standing clumped together and talking trash.

Except it does. Why would he not attack Windu at the same time as the rest of the B Team?

They can't really flank him. Look at that video again. Theres only a single walkway leading to his chair. They have to come at him from the front. Right into the lightning. 😎

OK, so Palpatine, focusing all of his energy on Windu, can't overpower him.

...so, for Vitiate to be able to overpower Windu while simultaneously killing off all the other Jedi would require him to be massively more powerful than Palpatine in the Force.

I think you're assuming that his Force "storm" is more powerful than conventional lightning, rather than being more dispersed.

There's a reason why Palpatine doesn't lead the fight with Force lightning; he's in close proximity to four masters, and it only takes one to chop his head off.

I don't think he could overpower Windu while taking out the others. I think he'll attack them all at once as he did in the Act 2 video, destroy the rest of the B Team while holding Windu off, then focus his power and overwhelm Windu.

Or he'll just make them all die in a flash of light.

Vitiate won't be in close proximity though, remember. They have to approach him in his big ass throne room.

Nepthys Wat Up My Loyal Henchmen.

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
Nepthys Wat Up My Loyal Henchmen.

You collect sidekicks on here, is that it?

I just skimmed over your video, but at 9:56, it looks like one of the Jedi manages to advance against his lightning.

Remember that Windu turned Palpatine's concentrated attack back on him and disfigured his face, so it's not like Vitiate can attack them all at once without suffering any retaliation. Likely, he can off the rest of the B team, but by that point, Windu is already within striking distance.

Or, I could get rid of PIS, and argue that Windu replicates Qui Gon/Obi Wan's onetime Force invisibility-speed feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's speculation. Windu turned back Sidious's [b]focused lightning at point blank range and scarred his face.[/b]

Its not speculation, its an extrapolation from the facts. If Vitiate is powerful enough to defeat 5 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once while holding back, he should be more than capable of annihilating the B Team when they're already weary from fighting through his heavily defended space station, while he gets time to prepare and gather his power.

Originally posted by Master Han
The point is that he mysteriously kills them when nobody is looking doesn't mean that he got in front of them and said "ROFL look at me, Imma kill you all now", and that they said "lol no, we're sith, so we're going to work [b]perfectly as a team and attack you all with perfect coordination", and then he dices them up.

He was in his fortress; he had numerous resources beyond his own raw power.

So I don't see how we can quantity the feat.[/b]

They were destroyed on the steps of the Imperial Citadel, which is right in the middle of Kaas City, so I doubt no-one was looking. And he didn't dice them up, he killed 11 Dark Council members at once in a flash of light on the Citadel steps.

And since this thread also takes place on his fortress he should have those same resources, right? Lol, I'm kidding. This threads on his actual Fortress, which is a space station, you know, in space, and he took out Darth Lokess and co in Kaas City.

We can quantify it by saying that if Vitiate has time to prepare, as he did against Lokess and co, he'll ****ing annihilate anyone.

Originally posted by Master Han
I meant in general; he never bothers to mind control the council, or even Scourge.

He doesn't need to. They're already serving him. An army of mind slaves is only appealing to gay british wankers possessed by egyptian artifacts anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, fair enough.

He still loses to Windu in a duel, though.

Yes.

Originally posted by Master Han
But not to the extent that he can take them all out before they close the distance.

Yes, to that extent.

Originally posted by Master Han
I just skimmed over your video, but at 9:56, it looks like one of the Jedi manages to advance against his lightning.

Yes, thats Tol Braga.

Firstly, I don't think the OP's intent is for us to have the B team also fight through Vitiate's defenses.

Secondly, if Windu alone can **** up Palpatine's face, how is Vitiate going to "hold off" Windu and fire at the B team without the same happening to himself?

Thirdly, I think it's safe to conclude that Windu >>> Tol Braga.

As per the OP:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Restrictions: Mind Domination
Scenario: Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin board the Emperor's space station to kill the Sith Emperor.
The Emperor jumps from his throne and prepares to kill them.
Can he do it? Or does he just get Saberpwnd?

They board his space station to kill him. However, there are numerous defenses between the hangers and Vitiates throne.

It also explicitly says that Vitiate is preparing for them.

The same way he did in the video. Lightning Storm to hold them off, then concentrated burst of lightning to wtfpwn them.

I'm not so sure that Windu is that far above Tol Braga. Tol Braga was able to duel a Dark Council Member (the most powerful Sith in the Empire) for several days straight before converting him. He was also able to throw off Vitiates mind-control by himself when not even the Hero of Tython, Revan or Malak were able to. Lastly he is shown giving the Hero of Tython a good fight and getting hits on him/her right before the Hero goes and defeats Vitiate. Not even Vitiate is shown doing that well (although he's obviously well above Tol Braga). Theres sufficient evidence that Braga is a Beast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They board his space station to kill him. However, there are numerous defenses between the hangers and Vitiates throne.

It also explicitly says that Vitiate is preparing for them.

Fair enough, but Palpatine also had plenty of time to prepare for the arrest squad.

The same way he did in the video. Lightning Storm to hold them off, then concentrated burst of lightning to wtfpwn them.

1. Prove that he can hold off Windu with the storm, when Braga was able to approach him, and when Windu himself has the whole "turn lightning back on your face" superconducting loop.

2. Prove that he can "wtfpwn" Windu with lightning, when Palpatine at point blank range could not.

Remember that Palpatine's lightning attempt seemed to weaken him more than it weakened Windu, even if he was partially faking it.

I'm not so sure that Windu is that far above Tol Braga. Tol Braga was able to duel a Dark Council Member (the most powerful Sith in the Empire) for several days straight before converting him. He was also able to throw off Vitiates mind-control by himself when not even the Hero of Tython, Revan or Malak were able to. Lastly he is shown giving the Hero of Tython a good fight and getting hits on him/her right before the Hero goes and defeats Vitiate. Not even Vitiate is shown doing that well (although he's obviously well above Tol Braga). Theres sufficient evidence that Braga is a Beast.

Oh, Braga is certainly very powerful, and perhaps I was exaggerating the amount of ">"'s, but there's nothing to suggest that he's above Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint when it comes to facing dark siders.

Originally posted by Master Han
1. Prove that he can hold off Windu with the storm, when Braga was able to approach him, and when Windu himself has the whole "turn lightning back on your face" superconducting loop.

2. Prove that he can "wtfpwn" Windu with lightning, when Palpatine [b]at point blank range could not.

Remember that Palpatine's lightning attempt seemed to weaken him more than it weakened Windu, even if he was partially faking it.[/b]

1. Braga was able to approach him after about 10 seconds of resisting the lightning. Mace will undoubtably try the same thing, but like Braga he won't get close enough before Vitiate follows through. Remember that this Vitiate isn't holding back like he was against Braga and co. as well. Plus Mace will be tired. Plus Vitiate has time to prepare and gather his power. Also since Lightning Storm comes from the ceiling, I doubt it would reflect at Vitiate.

2. Vitiates lightning is more powerful than Sidious'. awepedo

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, Braga is certainly very powerful, and perhaps I was exaggerating the amount of ">"'s, but there's nothing to suggest that he's above Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint when it comes to facing dark siders.

I didn't say he was, and have said that Windu is the biggest threat, above Tol Braga. I just think that with Vitiates advantages and if he unleashes his full power against him, Windu will be defeated.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Braga was able to approach him after about 10 seconds of resisting the lightning.

...using his own power.

Windu's vaapad will draw upon the Emperor's strength in the dark side .

Remember that this Vitiate isn't holding back like he was against Braga and co. as well.

Proof he was holding back?

Plus Mace will be tired.

Hence why I pointed out that I don't think the point is to debate over how formidable Vitiate's fortress's defenses are, and how much they will tire the team out.

Plus Vitiate has time to prepare and gather his power. Also since Lightning Storm comes from the ceiling, I doubt it would reflect at Vitiate.

IIRC, the superconducting loop has more to do with channeling dark side energies than any physical reflection.

2. Vitiates lightning is more powerful than Sidious'.

Uh, yeah, except that Windu's vaapad will draw on Vitiate's own power.

Granted, vaapad was stretched to its limit by RotS Sidious, but at the least, you have Windu drawing enough power to match Sidious here.

I just don't see the Emperor beating Windu back.

I didn't say he was, and have said that Windu is the biggest threat, above Tol Braga. I just think that with Vitiates advantages and if he unleashes his full power against him, Windu will be defeated.

For this to work, Vitiate will have to be significantly more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to Force lightning.

Originally posted by Master Han
...using his own power.

Windu's vaapad will draw upon the Emperor's strength in the dark side.

So?

Originally posted by Master Han
Proof he was holding back?

He defeated them 'with ease'. Which indicates that he doesn't need to unleash his full power against them to defeat them. The fact that he allows Braga to move forward by itself indicates that he was holding back.

Originally posted by Master Han
Hence why I pointed out that I don't think the point is to debate over how formidable Vitiate's fortress's defenses are, and how much they will tire the team out.

Oh well, they have to fight through them anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
IIRC, the superconducting loop has more to do with channeling dark side energies than any physical reflection.

And the darkside energies are coming from the ceiling. Force Lightning is still a physical attack and needs to be reflected in a physical manner.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yeah, except that Windu's vaapad will draw on Vitiate's own power.

Granted, vaapad was stretched to its limit by RotS Sidious, but at the least, you have Windu drawing enough power to match Sidious here.

I just don't see the Emperor beating Windu back.

Exactly. Vaapad was pushed to its limit by Sidious. Therefore Vitiates more powerful lightning will push it past its limit.

Originally posted by Master Han
For this to work, Vitiate will have to be [b]significantly more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to Force lightning. [/B]

Not really? Just a bit more should do it.

Originally posted by Nephthys Banjo Broskis Loyal Servant
Sith emperor win & that a fact

I Do Agree My Loyal Servant.

Yessssssss.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yessssssss.

Nephthys You Are A Good Friend To Me On These Forums.

lol