Originally posted by Mindset
Cross got plot shot because of the woman.And the people sent to kill the doc weren't mooks...
Then the only reason he isn't a drooling mess sitting in an apartment in the middle of nowhere mumbling "Didney Worl" is also plot also by that logic, he needed the woman and he couldn't out maneuver who was following him
And calling a team your best makes them no more than glorified mooks without feats to back them up.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The hit squad for the chick was top tier. Again, it's equivalent to those Bourne faced at the end of the first film. Bourne was injured during his fight, where as Cross jogged through everyone like it was a training exercise. I absolutely loved Bourne's character, but the film made a point of noting over and over that those in the programs after his are above and beyond in every way. Bourne was psych-molded into a killing machine to the point that he has permanent mental instability; Cross, his counterparts, and those from LARX are genetically-enhanced super-soldiers. You can try and see it however you want but they are on another level. Did you miss the jump from the stand, the survival skills, the healing, and the perfect hand-to-hand combat abilities? None of the hit team even laid a hand on Cross. Bourne is still my favorite but Cross is superior without doubt.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't at the beginning of the film they eliminate the "top tier" and he faced no one else from any of the programs and "jogging" through security guards and random police is no big feat. The only time he came up against anyone from any of the other programs he was shot and ultimately incapable of defending himself.
And his healing was mentioned once in a flashback which we never saw the capability of, Bourne displayed similar if not better survival skills, and his HTH capabilities were tested against no one special.
Bourne faced off with those inside his program who had been through the same thing he did and it was explicitly mentioned to boot, Quality vs. Quantity
I apologize for the double post
Top tier hit squad, as in the best regular hitters the agencies had to offer, same as what Bourne faced in France. Cross glided through, Bourne limped away.
Bourne would have been cooked in India had he not switched seats with Marie, so one shot does not decide everything. He was, however, caught unaware and shot successfully by the Russian later. Cross only ended up shot because he was protecting the Doctor..
I do agree that he should have faced off against the killer from LARX, though. As I said, those scenes were the hallmark of the previous films and more or less did the most to flesh out Bourne's acuity.
Every single analyst in the movie describes Cross' program as beyond Bourne's and LARX as the successor to that. Cross cake-walked the hit squad and was untouched by any of the security teams he ran up against. Bourne did well also, but he wasn't unscathed by his encounters.
Cross is basically all the good of Bourne amplified with none of the side effects. He freaking heard a drone coming miles out in the middle of a storm. His sensory ability, perception, reaction time, and every bit of genetic make up outclasses Bourne. I'm not going to discuss his HF further because I think we've already put out enough of the film's action, but the scene that follows the tracker incident more than speaks to how quickly is back to near 100% and what 100% is for Cross.
I just saw the film and quite honestly, I'm still going to say Bourne takes it. Cross didn't do anything I can't see Bourne replicating, and also, at the beginning they say Bourne was the "first generation off the meds", which I take to mean that he was "viraled out" as well as Cross, which is supported by the fact that they both attended the same Alaskan training camp, since Bourne etched his name in the wood.
Your ideas on Bourne are misguided:
Spoiler:
Bourne was never in a viral program; that's the whole reason that one analyst wanted to get a hold of him if he were captured or killed. They had no genetic samples from him. He was simply a capable soldier who was honed into a weapon to unleash on the "right" people.
Originally posted by McNasty996That's completely irrelevant to anything in this thread.
Then the only reason he isn't a drooling mess sitting in an apartment in the middle of nowhere mumbling "Didney Worl" is also plot also by that logic, he needed the woman and he couldn't out maneuver who was following himAnd calling a team your best makes them no more than glorified mooks without feats to back them up.
We are taking Cross at his best, not what he would have been degraded down to. He was shot because he was protecting the doctor, which doesn't help your case in this debate. He couldn't outmaneuver the person who was chasing him because of the woman...
No, it makes them highly trained operatives.
Originally posted by Lestov16Why would they be superior to Bourne?
Still, I was unimpressed by Cross, and even if Cross is physically superior, so was arguably Desh and the other Blackbriar operatives, and Bourne overcame them
Bourne has better h2h feats, though, until/if Cross gets some more I'd take him.
Cross taking down a predator drone with one shot and wrestling with that wolf was badass though.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure Bourne takes it.
Cross does not have feats against someone of his/Jason's level. The one guy that was supposed to be a hybrid between Treadstone and Outcome agents died without engaging Cross hand to hand. Not only that, he got killed because Cross had help.
Wow. The more I think about it, the more I realize how much this movie sucked......
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Top tier hit squad, as in the best regular hitters the agencies had to offer, same as what Bourne faced in France. Cross glided through, Bourne limped away.Bourne would have been cooked in India had he not switched seats with Marie, so one shot does not decide everything. He was, however, caught unaware and shot successfully by the Russian later. Cross only ended up shot because he was protecting the Doctor..
I do agree that he should have faced off against the killer from LARX, though. As I said, those scenes were the hallmark of the previous films and more or less did the most to flesh out Bourne's acuity.
Every single analyst in the movie describes Cross' program as beyond Bourne's and LARX as the successor to that. Cross cake-walked the hit squad and was untouched by any of the security teams he ran up against. Bourne did well also, but he wasn't unscathed by his encounters.
Cross is basically all the good of Bourne amplified with none of the side effects. He freaking heard a drone coming miles out in the middle of a storm. His sensory ability, perception, reaction time, and every bit of genetic make up outclasses Bourne. I'm not going to discuss his HF further because I think we've already put out enough of the film's action, but the scene that follows the tracker incident more than speaks to how quickly is back to near 100% and what 100% is for Cross.
And we saw how good the "regulars" no matter how good get treated unless they attack en masse. And yeah, Bourne would have been done but so would have Cross on multiple times.
Plot played roles in both of their lives and none ever described Cross's program as superior to Bourne's except in relation Larx-3.
And for all his supposed superiority to Bourne we have no idea how they compare in a face to face encounter. The drugs were meant to enhance him but we have no idea by how much or his base stats to begin with and hearing a drone coming is the only good feat coming out of any such enhancement.
Originally posted by Mindset
That's completely irrelevant to anything in this thread.We are taking Cross at his best, not what he would have been degraded down to. He was shot because he was protecting the doctor, which doesn't help your case in this debate. He couldn't outmaneuver the person who was chasing him because of the woman...
No, it makes them highly trained operatives.
And his best got him shot twice trying to escape with the doctor, Bourne did the same thing and got away with his woman before.
And in "highly trained operatives" means all of jack without any feats backing up said boast. What does that mean Bourne was fighting then, milk men?
Yeah, Bourne takes it in the back when Cross sticks the knife in. Let's not forget that all of a few minutes after slicing himself open he takes on the wolf while prone with ease. His HF and pain suppression are far beyond anything that can be trained into the body. Let's also not forget his friend hopping down from the tree stand; even in snow that's not something you do without a breakfall. They are on another level.
It still just saddens me that they didn't make the most out of this, especially having Norton as the new heavy.
Originally posted by McNasty996He got shot once.And his best got him shot twice trying to escape with the doctor, Bourne did the same thing and got away with his woman before.
And in "highly trained operatives" means all of jack without any feats backing up said boast. What does that mean Bourne was fighting then, milk men?
Bourne was facing inferior opponents and got shot.
It happens.
It means they are highly trained, as in, not mooks. Yes, that's exactly what I said, Bourne was fighting milkmen, maybe even on the same short bus you were on.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Yeah, Bourne takes it in the back when Cross sticks the knife in. Let's not forget that all of a few minutes after slicing himself open he takes on the wolf while prone with ease. His HF and pain suppression are far beyond anything that can be trained into the body. Let's also not forget his friend hopping down from the tree stand; even in snow that's not something you do without a breakfall. They are on another level.It still just saddens me that they didn't make the most out of this, especially having Norton as the new heavy.
Yeah, he had good physical stats but no real hand to hand feats against people with "program-level" skill. In the end I think that this would be up to opinion in the sense of hype vs feats. But yeah movie was a shame, didn't display as much as it could have
Originally posted by Mindset
He got shot once.Bourne was facing inferior opponents and got shot.
It happens.
It means they are highly trained, as in, not mooks. Yes, that's exactly what I said, Bourne was fighting milkmen, maybe even on the same short bus you were on.
He was shot twice, once in the shoulder and again in the hip. And the company is going to send in its B-team to take on Bourne?
And in that situation if I recall he was already surrounded in the hotel with men with automatic weapons and managed to escape while Cross with all his super senses didn't hear men in body armor and heavy weapons marching up the stairs and had to be warned by the woman and ran.
Every book in a movie is highly trained, shows of how badass they are. The only thing that separates them from a "dragon type" enemy is that they have no feats.
And insults are really uncalled for
Originally posted by McNasty996I only remember the hip, and he was shot by someone with presumably the same abilities as himself...a guy who shot down a predator drone from hundreds of yards away. The person who went after Cross > everyone who went after Bourne. If that makes them B-team, then I guess so.
He was shot twice, once in the shoulder and again in the hip. And the company is going to send in its B-team to take on Bourne?And in that situation if I recall he was already surrounded in the hotel with men with automatic weapons and managed to escape while Cross with all his super senses didn't hear men in body armor and heavy weapons marching up the stairs and had to be warned by the woman and ran.
Every book in a movie is highly trained, shows of how badass they are. The only thing that separates them from a "dragon type" enemy is that they have no feats.
And insults are really uncalled for
It's called plot. Could also be the fact that he was in a bustling city and just recuperated from a virus that could have killed him.
Books aren't trained, silly. There are a difference between operatives sent out to kill someone, and your local neighborhood cop. They don't need feats to show they aren't mooks, their status shows that.
There wouldn't be need for insults if you didn't make stupid comments and try to pass them off as my stance...I even said Bourne wins, I never once argued for Cross. 😬
Originally posted by McNasty996
Yeah, he had good physical stats but no real hand to hand feats against people with "program-level" skill. In the end I think that this would be up to opinion in the sense of hype vs feats. But yeah movie was a shame, didn't display as much as it could have
i agree i was expecting Bourne level feats and didn't really get that... I hope if their is a sequel he'll say better feats for Cross