As a SSJ2, teen Gohan was able to contend quite well against LSSJ Broly-- Gohan even overpowered him on at least one occasion, despite being at an extreme leverage disadvantage. This is important because Vegeta outright stated that teen Gohan "wasn't even close to the level he was at when he fought Cell.":
http://i.imgur.com/ZCQvjfI.gif
So, Super-Perfect Cell~SSJ2 kid Gohan>>>SSJ2 teen Gohan~LSSJ Broly. Broly *might* have been more powerful than teen Gohan, but the gap would have been marginal at best.
That said, Broly would have to power up a LOT more than what he ever displayed in the films for him to approach SPC's level, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
As a SSJ2, teen Gohan was able to contend quite well against LSSJ Broly-- Gohan even overpowered him on at least one occasion, despite being at an extreme leverage disadvantage. This is important because Vegeta outright stated that teen Gohan "wasn't even close to the level he was at when he fought Cell.":
http://i.imgur.com/ZCQvjfI.gifSo, Super-Perfect Cell=~SSJ2 kid Gohan>>>SSJ2 teen Gohan=~LSSJ Broly. Broly *might* have been more powerful than teen Gohan, but the gap would have been marginal at best.
That said, Broly would have to power up a LOT more than what he ever displayed in the films for him to approach SPC's level, imo.
In the first movie he was powering up a lot. This concept was dropped in the second film tho
Originally posted by juggermanDespite powering up as much as he did in the first film, Broly was still one-shotted by SSJ Goku after he absorbed the powers of Gohan+Vegeta+Trunks+Piccolo. This looks impressive at first glance, but recall that ALL of the beings who transferred their [remaining] powers to Goku were EXTREMELY weak at the time-- Gohan/Vegeta/Trunks, for example, were so weak that they couldn't even maintain their SSJ state(hell, they could barely even maintain consciousness.)
In the first movie he was powering up a lot. This concept was dropped in the second film tho
ie. the power Goku possessed when he effortlessly trounced Broly in the first film<<<SSJ2 kid Gohan~SPC.
Originally posted by juggermanThe one-on-one battle between SSJ2 Gohan and Broly was brief, but Broly did not gain a definitive upperhand, imo. Gohan landed multiple blows-- most of which were potent enough to rock Broly to a degree. Aside from that, Gohan outright overpowered Broly's arm-hold, despite being at an extreme leverage disadvantage. Broly may have been more powerful one-on-one, but it wasn't by much-- his stamina was clearly superior to Gohan's, though. Either way, the fact still remains that SSJ2 teen Gohan was around LSSJ Broly's level-- a level that is VASTLY below that of SPC.
Broly was stopping all over Gohan. He was clearly more powerful.Do you think he would even beat Perfect Cell?
I think it would be a good fight. Remember, Perfect Cell, as well as tiny portions of his power(ie. Cell Juniors), were able to treat ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks like fodder(which Broly also did.) Furthermore, Perfect Cell was able to defeat FPSSJ Goku/Gohan while immensely holding back(which Broly also did.)
Originally posted by Galan007
The one-on-one battle between SSJ2 Gohan and Broly was brief, but Broly did not gain a definitive upperhand, imo. Gohan landed multiple blows-- most of which were potent enough to rock Broly to a degree. Aside from that, Gohan outright overpowered Broly's arm-hold, despite being at an extreme leverage disadvantage. Broly may have been more powerful one-on-one, but it wasn't by much-- his stamina was clearly superior to Gohan's, though. Either way, the fact still remains that SSJ2 teen Gohan was around LSSJ Broly's level-- a level that is VASTLY below that of SPC.
He was clearly toying with Gohan as he was smiling and laughing almost the entire time. And while Gohan's attacks did "move" Broly they didn't appear to have any real effect. Hell Vegeta did better than that against Recoome
Originally posted by juggermanHis blows still had an effect, and were delivered w/o using the element of surprise. Also, you're not addressing the part where Gohan overpowered Broly's arm-hold, despite having a leverage disadvantage. That alone shows a distinct strength advantage on Gohan's part.
He was clearly toying with Gohan as he was smiling and laughing almost the entire time. And while Gohan's attacks did "move" Broly they didn't appear to have any real effect. Hell Vegeta did better than that against Recoome
Originally posted by Galan007
His blows still had an effect, and were delivered w/o using the element of surprise. Also, you're not addressing the part where Gohan overpowered Broly's arm-hold, despite having a leverage disadvantage. That alone shows a distinct strength advantage on Gohan's part.
There are several instances in DBZ of weaker guys effecting stronger guys without surprize especially when the stronger one is holding back and/or toying with the weaker one.
I addressed it earlier in the thread but to sum up, Broly was laughing and show boating a bit which to me says he wasn't putting all his strength into the hold. Gohan started to pull away and kicked Broly, breaking the hold entirely, before Broly even tried to regain control.
Originally posted by juggermanVery rarely do we see a significantly weaker character outright overpower a more powerful character-- especially when they have no leverage whatsoever. Broly looked visibly shocked that Gohan was overpowering his hold-- the smile that you keep bringing morphed into a "holy shit" look. Then Gohan kicked Broly in the face which rocked him enough to release the hold entirely(if you don't believe me, watch the fight again.) There is absolutely no evidence that Broly was holding back-- that is exclusively your opinion.
There are several instances in DBZ of weaker guys effecting stronger guys without surprize especially when the stronger one is holding back and/or toying with the weaker one.I addressed it earlier in the thread but to sum up, Broly was laughing and show boating a bit which to me says he wasn't putting all his strength into the hold. Gohan started to pull away and kicked Broly, breaking the hold entirely, before Broly even tried to regain control.
So again, they were at least close to the same level one-on-one. Broly may have been more powerful, but it wasn't by a whole lot otherwise Gohan would have been utterly helpless when placed in said arm-hold.
Originally posted by Galan007
Very rarely do we see a significantly weaker character outright overpower a more powerful character-- especially when they have no leverage whatsoever. Broly looked visibly shocked that Gohan was overpowering his hold-- the smile that you keep bringing morphed into a "holy shit" look. Then Gohan kicked Broly in the face which rocked him enough to release the hold entirely(if you don't believe me, watch the fight again.) There is absolutely no evidence that Broly was holding back-- that is exclusively your opinion.So again, they were at least close to the same level one-on-one. Broly may have been more powerful, but it wasn't by a whole lot otherwise Gohan would have been utterly helpless when placed in said arm-hold.
While it did turn into more of a "pissed off" look then a "holy shit" look, his laughing shows he wasn't putting his all into it. He, along with just about everyone else in DBZ besides Goku, does not smile while he's actually putting forth effort. His face changes and the hold gets broken. He does not appear to try to regain control at all. If he had then yes you could say he was outright overpowered. But since he did not what we see is him underestimating his opponent and it costing him.
Originally posted by juggermanFrieza, the Androids, Cell and Buu all smiled enthusiastically, even when faced against an opponent with =/> power. Smiling during a battle=ego=/=an accurate power gauge.
While it did turn into more of a "pissed off" look then a "holy shit" look, his laughing shows he wasn't putting his all into it. He, along with just about everyone else in DBZ besides Goku, does not smile while he's actually putting forth effort. His face changes and the hold gets broken. He does not appear to try to regain control at all. If he had then yes you could say he was outright overpowered. But since he did not what we see is him underestimating his opponent and it costing him.
Anyway, it seems like your contention is that Broly 'let' Gohan overpower him, despite the "holy shit/wtf" look on his face-- which makes no sense. Broly was actively trying to kill Gohan-- he's not just going to 'let' him get away. To me it's obvious that Gohan overpowered Broly in that instance, plain and simple. :/
Originally posted by Galan007
Frieza, the Androids, Cell and Buu all smiled enthusiastically, even when faced against an opponent with =/> power. Smiling during a battle=ego=/=an accurate power gauge.Anyway, it seems like your contention is that Broly 'let' Gohan overpower him, despite the "holy shit/wtf" look on his face-- which makes no sense. Broly was actively trying to kill Gohan-- he's not just going to 'let' him get away. To me it's obvious that Gohan overpowered Broly in that instance, plain and simple. :/
Frieza was greatly holding back against Goku until he went SSJ. The Androids were too iirc. Cell was never very serious against anyone weaker than himself and his attitude changed quickly once Gohan showed his SSJ2 power. Buu is weird. That's my point. They smile an have while not going all out
But i didn't mean "smiling at the opponent while nothing much is going on" i mean "smiling while blows are being landed, holds are being applied ect." Frieza and the others you mentioned smilied while talking and whatnot but did not when actually applying pressure to the opponent.
I'm not saying he "let" him out at all. I'm saying he wasn't taking Gohan all that seriously, as per his MO, and Gohan escaped. Broly was clearly not putting all his effort into the hold and this is shown by his laughing and smiling. He isn't one to get giddy over a "worthy opponent", he just want to torture people. He wasn't actually trying to kill Gohan or the rest of them until the end. He toys. That's what he does
Originally posted by juggermanOnce more: smiling during a battle=ego=/=an accurate power gauge. We've seen DBZ villains smile during many-a-battle, even when faced with a more powerful opponent. Doesn't mean anything-- esp. if they are overpowered during said battle. :/
Frieza was greatly holding back against Goku until he went SSJ. The Androids were too iirc. Cell was never very serious against anyone weaker than himself and his attitude changed quickly once Gohan showed his SSJ2 power. Buu is weird. That's my point. They smile an have while not going all outBut i didn't mean "smiling at the opponent while nothing much is going on" i mean "smiling while blows are being landed, holds are being applied ect." Frieza and the others you mentioned smilied while talking and whatnot but did not when actually applying pressure to the opponent.
I'm not saying he "let" him out at all. I'm saying he wasn't taking Gohan all that seriously, as per his MO, and Gohan escaped. Broly was clearly not putting all his effort into the hold and this is shown by his laughing and smiling. He isn't one to get giddy over a "worthy opponent", he just want to torture people. He wasn't actually trying to kill Gohan or the rest of them until the end. He toys. That's what he does
There is more proof that Broly wasn't holding back, then there is proof to the contrary. We saw Gohan put up a decent fight during their brief scuffle which, by DBZ standards, means their powers were around the same level. If you cannot accept this, then you cannot accept the truth.
Again: in a physical battle, Broly was likely more powerful then SSJ2 teen Gohan w/o powering up, but the difference was marginal.
Originally posted by Galan007
Once more: smiling during a battle=ego=/=an accurate power gauge. We've seen DBZ villains smile during many-a-battle, even when faced with a more powerful opponent. Doesn't mean anything-- esp. if they are overpowered during said battle. :/There is more proof that Broly wasn't holding back, then there is proof to the contrary. We saw Gohan put up a decent fight during their brief scuffle which, by DBZ standards, means their powers were around the same level. If you cannot accept this, then you cannot accept the truth.
Again: in a physical battle, Broly was likely more powerful then SSJ2 teen Gohan w/o powering up, but the difference was marginal.
I understand what you're saying and i disagree. Respectfully of course. Frieza was laughing and smiling against opponents while holding back. Then when overpowered, even for just an instant, he became stunned/angry/had an "oh shit look" but was still vastly holding back. Examples are him in 1st form against Vegeta, him in 2nd form against Piccolo and maybe Gohan. Him in 3rd form against Gohan. Him in 4th form against Goku(before SSJ)
Same goes for Perfect Cell against Vegeta, Trunks and Goku. Fat Buu as well against Vegeta. Super Buu against SSJ Gotenks and imo SSJ3 Gotenks. Buutenks against Gohan. And even Kid Buu against Vegeta and Fat Buu iirc. So to say Broly couldn't have been holding back due to a face he made briefly is just silly to me.
Much more point to Broly holding back. He toyed with the kids and Videl, he fired a blast at SSJ2 Gohan that didn't even have enough power to kill Krillin, he allowed free shot(s) to Gohan(i only remember one atm), and he easily took on Gohan, Goten and Goku in a power struggle while laughing. He wasn't struggling at all. He was taking them lightly and not once actually exerted himself until the very end when he got blasted into the sun
