Originally posted by Smurph
But Surfer did see the future and it did come to pass. He said the battle didn't end with Dredd and there was another enemy still, and that came to pass.
That's just as vague lol. If he could see the future, he'd not be surprised by Dredd cutting him one issue earlier.
Conversely, Invincible says that Conquest won't live to see another day, but Conquest does. It did not come to pass.But also, obviously, Invincible's dialogue was not him literally claiming to have future sight. Surfer's was. Your inability to understand dialogue is embarrassing.
That was just sarcasm lol. The way Surfer gets random powers because of his random claims. You still don't get it.
Originally posted by leonidas
you've moved goalposts. again. lol In the scan in question he did say he was seeing the future. you just don't like that very much--he was also hindered by the locality. and, since you don't like it, you strawman and conflate it with "it didn't happen".
Just like Invincible did.
but it DID happen. ON PANEL.
No, it didn't. He made a claim.
he's also looked back into and recreated visions of the past as well. and he has indeed accessed a place where time intersects. all those things are on panel. iow--they happened. I never claimed i'd use his future sight. I never claimed it has been effective in helping him. however in being able to see it AT ALL, he does indeed possess a way to view time differently from everyone else. you don't like it so attempt to degrade the feat and strawman the hell out of it 😂 you're schtick is obvious. and consistent. only it DID happen. on panel. you just HATE the fact that you can't find a scan that shows anyone else--let alone EVERYONE else--doing the same thing. it's okay. we all have bad weeks. to reiterate:
I never said he can't view the past, just that he can't see the future. You still don't get it lol.
YOU said--everyone can see time like he does.
and proceeded to show exactly NOTHING. 😂
but i'm senile. 😂
quick, get the last word. insert strawman. insert comment on irrelevant part of my post. insert insult. seeing the future is easy.
This is just sad.
Originally posted by Stoic
Why does the Surfer have to see any future? He does have cosmic awareness, and he would mediates know more about the Speed Force users than they may actually know about themselves. They can all be disconnected from their powers source remotely, or the Surfer could analyze and drain it for his own use. He has the ability to do all of this.
There it is.
What’s crazy, is that the Surfer never has to be hit by a speedster because of his ability to become intangible. However, and this is what changes things, is that while he is intangible, he can still effect the environment.
I apologize but I kind of feel the need to remind everyone that this is a forum battle the dome force compels these guys to be at their best and fight for everything that they love. No jobberliscious stuff!
Speed Steal and would it completely work on the Silver Surfer who doesn’t always need kinetic energy to move.
1. What is Speed Steal?
Used most famously by The Flash (especially Wally West), speed steal is when a speedster taps into the Speed Force and steals the kinetic energy or motion from another being, effectively slowing them down or even freezing them in place.
2. Would It Work on Silver Surfer?
A. Surfer isn’t powered by kinetic motion alone
• Silver Surfer’s speed comes from the Power Cosmic, not kinetic energy or muscular motion like normal beings.
• He bends space, manipulates gravitational fields, and even folds time and distance to achieve speeds that rival or surpass light.
• You’re not just stealing “speed” from his legs—he’s riding a cosmic surfboard that’s powered by Galactus’ energy.
B. Power Cosmic resists external forces
• The Power Cosmic allows the Surfer to resist time manipulation, soul manipulation, and energy absorption in many cases.
• Speed Force manipulation is a form of exotic energy manipulation. It might interact with the Surfer, but the Power Cosmic would likely counter it, or the Surfer could adapt to it.
Marvel Comics Presents #172–175, highlighting the Silver Surfer’s use of genetic manipulation to bind Lunatik to a planet. This is key.
What’s also key is that the Surfer can tank a million punches from them before simply becoming intangible. While intangible he can absolutely still gum up the genetic makeup of terrestrial life forms.
The Speed Force isn’t just energy—it’s a dimensional, metaphysical force of motion and inertia, tied to:
• Biology (the speedster’s unique DNA and metabolism)
• Vibration (quantum harmonic frequencies)
• Temporal state (how the body interacts with space and time)
• And conscious intent (a speedster has to “connect” with it mentally and emotionally)
Wally’s connection to the Speed Force is not just spiritual—it’s anchored in his physiology:
• His cells vibrate in tune with it
• His brain processes time differently
• His entire genetic code is optimized to channel, withstand, and sustain that cosmic current
What could go wrong for a speedster?
A. Cellular Misalignment
• If Surfer changes how Wally’s mitochondria or neurons fire, he could:
• Interfere with how energy is processed
• Mute Wally’s ability to initiate Speed Force bursts
• Disrupt perception, not just motion
B. Vibrational Scramble
• Surfer could subtly tweak Wally’s quantum vibration rate, throwing him out of phase with the Speed Force
• That alone could:
• Sever his link
• Trap him in the physical world
• Even render him temporally sluggish—a literal slow motion hell for a speedster
C. Genetic Recalibration
• If Surfer alters the genes responsible for anchoring Wally to the Speed Force, Wally could:
• Lose access altogether
• Burn out like a broken circuit
• Be forcibly “normalized” into a baseline human state—still thinking fast, but unable to move fast
D. Chaos Feedback
• Wally’s body is used to handling Speed Force energy at unthinkable velocities.
If Surfer disrupts his biological filters, Wally might:
• Take internal damage from uncontrolled energy surges
• Suffer temporal seizures
• Become a danger to himself or reality
Is it plausible?
One notable example is found in Silver Surfer #104, where he employs the Power Cosmic to evolve an entire world, showcasing his capacity for “genetic” and environmental manipulation.
In Silver Surfer #54 (1991), during the “Infinity Gauntlet” storyline, the Silver Surfer encounters the Rhino releasing animals from the Central Park Zoo. Amidst the ensuing chaos, a police officer shoots a tiger. Demonstrating his healing abilities, the Surfer uses the Power Cosmic to heal the injured animal. This act underscores his capacity to manipulate biological matter and restore life.
In Marvel Comics Presents #172–175, the Silver Surfer exemplifies his mastery over genetic manipulation through the Power Cosmic when he confronts the mercenary Lunatik. Recognizing that brute force would be futile against Lunatik’s raw might and chaotic nature, Surfer alters Lunatik’s genetic structure, binding his physiology to a specific planetary environment. This act prevents Lunatik from ever leaving the planet—a punishment not enforced by chains or prisons, but by the Surfer’s intimate interaction with Lunatik’s own biology.
It’s really the Surfers fight to lose. The rest are blitzed cold.
Originally posted by Stoic
What’s crazy, is that the Surfer never has to be hit by a speedster because of his ability to become intangible. However, and this is what changes things, is that while he is intangible, he can still effect the environment.I apologize but I kind of feel the need to remind everyone that this is a forum battle the dome force compels these guys to be at their best and fight for everything that they love. No jobberliscious stuff!
Speed Steal and would it completely work on the Silver Surfer who doesn’t always need kinetic energy to move.
1. What is Speed Steal?
Used most famously by The Flash (especially Wally West), speed steal is when a speedster taps into the Speed Force and steals the kinetic energy or motion from another being, effectively slowing them down or even freezing them in place.
2. Would It Work on Silver Surfer?
A. Surfer isn’t powered by kinetic motion alone
• Silver Surfer’s speed comes from the Power Cosmic, not kinetic energy or muscular motion like normal beings.
• He bends space, manipulates gravitational fields, and even folds time and distance to achieve speeds that rival or surpass light.
• You’re not just stealing “speed” from his legs—he’s riding a cosmic surfboard that’s powered by Galactus’ energy.B. Power Cosmic resists external forces
• The Power Cosmic allows the Surfer to resist time manipulation, soul manipulation, and energy absorption in many cases.
• Speed Force manipulation is a form of exotic energy manipulation. It might interact with the Surfer, but the Power Cosmic would likely counter it, or the Surfer could adapt to it.Marvel Comics Presents #172–175, highlighting the Silver Surfer’s use of genetic manipulation to bind Lunatik to a planet. This is key.
What’s also key is that the Surfer can tank a million punches from them before simply becoming intangible. While intangible he can absolutely still gum up the genetic makeup of terrestrial life forms.
The Speed Force isn’t just energy—it’s a dimensional, metaphysical force of motion and inertia, tied to:
• Biology (the speedster’s unique DNA and metabolism)
• Vibration (quantum harmonic frequencies)
• Temporal state (how the body interacts with space and time)
• And conscious intent (a speedster has to “connect” with it mentally and emotionally)Wally’s connection to the Speed Force is not just spiritual—it’s anchored in his physiology:
• His cells vibrate in tune with it
• His brain processes time differently
• His entire genetic code is optimized to channel, withstand, and sustain that cosmic currentWhat could go wrong for a speedster?
A. Cellular Misalignment
• If Surfer changes how Wally’s mitochondria or neurons fire, he could:
• Interfere with how energy is processed
• Mute Wally’s ability to initiate Speed Force bursts
• Disrupt perception, not just motionB. Vibrational Scramble
• Surfer could subtly tweak Wally’s quantum vibration rate, throwing him out of phase with the Speed Force
• That alone could:
• Sever his link
• Trap him in the physical world
• Even render him temporally sluggish—a literal slow motion hell for a speedsterC. Genetic Recalibration
• If Surfer alters the genes responsible for anchoring Wally to the Speed Force, Wally could:
• Lose access altogether
• Burn out like a broken circuit
• Be forcibly “normalized” into a baseline human state—still thinking fast, but unable to move fastD. Chaos Feedback
• Wally’s body is used to handling Speed Force energy at unthinkable velocities.
If Surfer disrupts his biological filters, Wally might:
• Take internal damage from uncontrolled energy surges
• Suffer temporal seizures
• Become a danger to himself or realityIs it plausible?
One notable example is found in Silver Surfer #104, where he employs the Power Cosmic to evolve an entire world, showcasing his capacity for “genetic” and environmental manipulation.In Silver Surfer #54 (1991), during the “Infinity Gauntlet” storyline, the Silver Surfer encounters the Rhino releasing animals from the Central Park Zoo. Amidst the ensuing chaos, a police officer shoots a tiger. Demonstrating his healing abilities, the Surfer uses the Power Cosmic to heal the injured animal. This act underscores his capacity to manipulate biological matter and restore life.
In Marvel Comics Presents #172–175, the Silver Surfer exemplifies his mastery over genetic manipulation through the Power Cosmic when he confronts the mercenary Lunatik. Recognizing that brute force would be futile against Lunatik’s raw might and chaotic nature, Surfer alters Lunatik’s genetic structure, binding his physiology to a specific planetary environment. This act prevents Lunatik from ever leaving the planet—a punishment not enforced by chains or prisons, but by the Surfer’s intimate interaction with Lunatik’s own biology.
It’s really the Surfers fight to lose. The rest are blitzed cold.
Here is my writeup - sorry to break it to you, Stoic:
**Speed Steal vs. Silver Surfer: Why The Flash Wins**
### **1. What is Speed Steal?**
Used most famously by The Flash (especially Wally West), Speed Steal is when a speedster taps into the Speed Force and steals the kinetic energy or motion from another being, effectively slowing them down or even freezing them in place. However, this ability is not purely about kinetic energy—it also involves inertia and time manipulation. Given that *Flash (2023) #8* confirms the Speed Force is fundamentally **time itself**, this means Speed Steal affects **not just movement, but the target’s interaction with time**.
### **2. Would It Work on Silver Surfer? Yes, and Here’s Why.**
#### **A. Surfer’s Speed is Tied to Time, Which Wally Controls**
- Silver Surfer’s movement comes from the **Power Cosmic**, which allows him to manipulate space-time.
- However, Wally’s Speed Steal doesn’t just remove kinetic motion—it can drain **time itself**.
- Since Surfer’s speed involves space-time warping, Wally’s ability to **steal time flow** would directly impact Surfer’s ability to move at all.
#### **B. Power Cosmic Can’t Adapt Fast Enough**
- The Power Cosmic grants resistance to many forces, but it requires conscious adaptation.
- Speed Steal happens **instantaneously**, before Surfer can react.
- In battles against time manipulators like Kang or the Time Variance Authority, Surfer has struggled against abrupt temporal shifts. Wally doesn’t give him time to adjust.
### **3. The Speed Force Gives Wally an Unbeatable Advantage**
The Speed Force isn’t just energy—it is **time itself**, a **dimensional, metaphysical force** that dictates motion and inertia, tied to:
- **Biology** (the speedster’s unique DNA and metabolism)
- **Vibration** (quantum harmonic frequencies)
- **Temporal state** (how the body interacts with time and space)
- **Conscious intent** (a speedster has to “connect” with it mentally and emotionally)
Since Wally is **literally a conduit of time**, he isn’t just moving fast—he is **rewriting time as he moves**. Unlike Surfer, who manipulates time externally, Wally is directly connected to it, allowing him to **override** Surfer’s reality-warping speed.
### **4. How Wally Wins**
#### **A. Wally Steals Surfer’s Time Flow Instantly**
- Wally can steal time from Surfer, instantly reducing him to a near standstill.
- Since Surfer doesn’t move in a conventional way, Speed Steal’s effect on time ensures Surfer experiences **time dilation**, making his reactions too slow to counter.
- Even if Surfer tries to resist, Wally’s **infinite mass punch** could land before Surfer even perceives the attack.
#### **B. Surfer Can’t React in Time**
- Speedsters like Wally perceive time at **planck-scale speeds**, meaning even Surfer’s “instantaneous” actions are still too slow.
- Wally can steal time and launch multiple attacks **before Surfer registers what’s happening**.
- If Wally chooses, he could dump Surfer into the Speed Force itself, an extradimensional realm even the Power Cosmic can’t access.
#### **C. Surfer’s Best Counters Are Too Slow**
- Surfer might attempt to alter Wally’s quantum vibrations or cellular structure, but Wally’s adaptive Speed Force prevents long-term effects.
- Wally has survived **universal entropy, time collapses, and reality warping**, meaning Surfer’s counters wouldn’t be enough to stop him outright.
- If Surfer tried to shift his own timeline, Wally would still be **ahead of him**, processing events faster than the universe itself.
### **5. Is It Plausible? Absolutely.**
- **Speed Steal instantly incapacitates Surfer.**
- **Surfer can’t react fast enough to counter.**
- **Even if Surfer adapts, Wally has already won before he gets the chance.**
- **The fight wouldn’t even last a second in Wally’s perspective.**
### **6. Conclusion: Wally West Wins Every Time**
- Wally’s Speed Steal is an **instant** victory move.
- Surfer is powerful, but **too slow to adapt in time**.
- The Power Cosmic is vast, but **it isn’t faster than the Speed Force**.
- **Wally West secures the win—before Surfer even realizes the fight started.**