Originally posted by cdtm
Thanks to abhi for pointing this one out:Time Trapper destroys all future timelines except one.
Time Trapper arranged so that the the Green Lanterns energy rings could do the job. Sounds more like a manipulator than a raw power house otherwise he wouldve done it with his own power directly and wouldnt have had to a"arrange" for it to be done by another source of power.
Furthermore what arrangements were made? Was there an on panel depiction or clear statement of the feat and clarification of how it was achieved?
Right now this is about as useful as posting that scan of Squirrel Girl standing victorious over Thanos with the statement that she beat him with absolutely zero context offered. 😬
I hope you get my point.
Originally posted by GalacticStormYour unsupported and unsubstantiated statements do not an argument make. This Phoenix halo didn't even envelope Scott in the actual storyline Here Comes Tomorrow. Sorry you've missed that.
The Phoenix icon has often enveloped targets of Jean/Rachels telepathic prowess. Just as the unique energy signatures of other telepaths also regularly display over a target. Again. Im sorry youve missed that. It would seem some background reading is required.
kinda
Originally posted by GalacticStormFlowery garbled Morrison prose isn't an argument either. I've never cared what your subjective interpretation was of their words. Many of us have already offered a completely rational interpretation supported by most handbook entries of what happened.
Given the medical imagery and references made in the scene, the universe being called a "patient" and having an infected timeline amputated from it, the universe then being badly wounded thereby necessitating treatment in the "hospital" (which was revealed to be the white hot room) Jeans manifestation of the universe within the "hospital" all seems to make sense in this cosmic hospital drama. The Phoenix hosts were made out to be cosmic surgeons and where best to treat a severely wounded patient but a hospital 🙂Doesnt have to make sense. If you dont like it write your own comic book. However we're told whats going on, certain points such as Jean manipulating the atomic structure of a universe are verified in handbooks and by on panel statements. So we know whats going on, we just are never told why it has to happen that way. Which is the case with a lot of comic book melodrama. Oh well. What happened happened
Yeah your theory does have to make sense, especially when you don't even see this feat of telekinetically severing a timeline on-panel anywhere. This isn't just suspicious, it's phucking obvious. Nobody has to take your nonsensical off-panel theorycrafting seriously when supported only by a single handbook entry and hypocrisy, e.g., Phoenix calls Sublime "future," in one sentence but cannot possibly be referring to Sublime in the very next sentence when she says the word, "future," again, or the Phoenix flare is only a visualization in her hands but the universe cannot be a visualization.
Originally posted by "Id"No, it wasn't. There is literally no reason for the feat to even occur. Nudging characters in 616 to do something different has never required, and didn't require telekinetically severing a timeline... off-panel.
I don't agree with everything Galaticstorm says. But amputating reality 15104 from the divergent point, for a new future to grow from. Was a very literal, and big part of Here Comes Tomorrow.
Originally posted by ODG
No, it wasn't. There is literally no reason for the feat to even occur. Nudging characters in 616 to do something different has never required, and didn't require telekinetically severing a timeline... off-panel.
In this arc that's exactly what happened in panel. Literally. srsly
Originally posted by "Id"In between which panels is the entire future reality severed? With telekinesis no less? And let's not try to peddle that small panel with Jean traveling to the White Hot Room to drop off Sublime's atoms as a depiction of this "feat" being performed.
In this arc that's exactly what happened in panel. Literally. srsly
Originally posted by ODG
In between which panels is the entire future reality severed? With telekinesis no less? And let's not try to peddle that small panel with Jean traveling to the White Hot Room to drop off Sublime's atoms as a depiction of this "feat" being performed.
Originally posted by "Id"She directly and dryly referred to Sublime as "future." In the very next sentence -- the sentence you're drawing from -- while still holding and staring at Sublime, you honestly think she refers to "future" in the literal sense? And how is that small panel of Jean traveling to the White Hot Room, which is what she is doing at the time of this sentence, supposed to be an on-panel depiction of a future reality being severed by telekinesis?
Its stated on panel that the entire future was amputated. That so much is clearly stated.
Originally posted by ODG
She directly and dryly referred to Sublime as "future." In the very next sentence -- the sentence you're drawing from -- while still holding and staring at Sublime, you honestly think she refers to "future" in the literal sense? And how is that small panel of Jean traveling to the White Hot Room, which is what she is doing at the time of this sentence, supposed to be an on-panel depiction of a future reality being severed by telekinesis?
From the affirmation from which the comic states she is holding a wounded universe, after the amputation took place. To which its followed up by a new task, the need to grow a new future.
Originally posted by "Id"A universe "wounded" by the fact that it ended up with a dystopic future due to Sublime's "infection," necessitating her making a new future by nudging Scott telepathically.
From the affirmation from which the comic states she is holding a wounded universe, after the amputation took place. To which its followed up by a new task, the need to grow a new future.
You've not identified a single panel where she performs a telekinetic feat of severing a timeline. You've not even presented a rational reason for her to perform this nonsensical feat in the first place. She wrecked the universe's timeline with... telekinesis... off-panel... just so she could telepathically nudge Scott Summer's choice?
That's a spectacularly needless set of circumstances to be completed just to achieve the customary butterfly effect that resolves EVERY SINGLE alternate future storyline in the history of fiction.
Originally posted by ODG
A universe "wounded" by the fact that it ended up with a dystopic future due to Sublime's "infection," necessitating her making a new future by nudging Scott telepathically.
Originally posted by ODGYou've not identified a single panel where she performs a telekinetic feat of severing a timeline.
Originally posted by ODG
You've not even presented a rational reason for her to perform this nonsensical feat in the first place. She wrecked the universe's timeline with... telekinesis... off-panel... just so she could telepathically nudge Scott Summer's choice?
Lets be clear, and realize that Sublime became non-issue after coordinated disinfection was a successes. From that point, the plot moves its focus on a new Crisis, Jean amputation of future, and critically wounding the universe.
Anyhow with the amputation. It happened so fast Jean herself did not realize she amputated the future, due to a momentary emotional blindness, in realizing that her friends did not deserve this kind of future.
We know this is truth because the Phoenix points out the consequence of her emotional shock: The patient needing quick treatment, or it will die referring to the amputated Universe.
Originally posted by ODG
That's a spectacularly needless set of circumstances to be completed just to achieve the customary butterfly effect that resolves EVERY SINGLE alternate future storyline in the history of fiction.
Its more like a momentary state of dumbness on Jeans behalf, created a circumstance that promoted Jean, and the Phoenix to act quickly by healing the universe, through the regrowth of a new future. Thus conveniently resolving the future dystopian timeline.
Originally posted by "Id"I don't find my request for a depiction of this monumental feat of severing a timeline telekinetically to be unreasonable. It's an unprecedented feat. And if the resolution of the entire storyline can take place without it, then it's existence needs to not just be justified, but god damn apparent to the reader. Let's not pretend otherwise.
This is [b]your interpretation, cutting strait to telepathic nudge disregarding everything else that was shown/explained in the processes.More like you require the need to visually witness the exact moment, when a future amputation occurred, since you challenge the comics claim that an amputation took place at all. 😕[/b]
Originally posted by "Id"Actually, no. Jean even in these panels is still holding Sublime and handling him.
Your asking for a reason, but its all there.Lets be clear, and realize that Sublime became non-issue after coordinated disinfection was a successes. From that point, the plot moves its focus on a new Crisis, Jean amputation of future, and critically wounding the universe.
Anyhow with the amputation. It happened so fast Jean herself did not realize she amputated the future, due to a momentary emotional blindness, in realizing that her friends did not deserve this kind of future.
We know this is truth because the Phoenix points it out the consequence of her emotional shock: The patient needing quick treatment, or it will die referring to the amputated Universe.
Its more like a momentary state of dumbness on Jeans behalf, promoted Jean, and the Phoenix to act quickly by healing the universe, through the regrowth of a new future. Thus conveniently resolving the future dystopian timeline.
So Jean, off-panel, unwittingly used telekinesis on a future timeline and wreaked universal-scale havoc. And it happened so fast, that even the artist couldn't depict it, much less the reader catch its occurrence. And then she fixed this via the common trope of butterfly effect. What an astonishingly retarded justification for this off-panel feat garbage. I am genuinely surprised and disappointed.
Originally posted by ODG
I don't find my request for a depiction of this monumental feat of severing a timeline telekinetically to be unreasonable. It's an unprecedented feat. And if the resolution of the entire storyline can take place without it, then it's existence needs to not just be justified, but god damn apparent to the reader. Let's not pretend otherwise. Actually, no. Jean even in these panels is still holding Sublime and handling him.
Anyhow the resolution of dystopian future could have been met with the talapathic nudge, if Jean had not fabricated the new crisis in the first place.
Originally posted by ODG
Actually, no. Jean even in these panels is still holding Sublime and handling him.
Regardless if she is holding Sublime or not. The comic states the fact, before moving onto the new point of conflict.
Originally posted by ODG
So Jean, off-panel, unwittingly used telekinesis on a future timeline and wreaked universal-scale havoc. And it happened so fast, that even the artist couldn't depict it, much less the reader catch its occurrence. And then she fixed this via the common trope of butterfly effect.
Originally posted by ODG
I am genuinely surprised and disappointed.
Originally posted by "Id"Neither is the absence of evidence, evidence.
Yet, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.Anyhow the resolution of dystopian future could have been met with the talapathic nudge, if Jean had not fabricated the new crisis in the first place.
And somehow, this catastrophe of universal proportions was also conveniently resolved by the telepathic nudge.
Originally posted by "Id"The comic states Jean staring at Sublime's atoms and asking, "Is this the future?" "M friends didn't deserve that." etc. It's the same damn conflict.
Its actually a moot point. I am not focused on what she is holding, only on the act itself.Regardless if she is holding Sublime or not. The comic states the fact, before moving onto the new point of conflict.
Originally posted by "Id"Jean did not unwittingly sever a future timeline with telekinesis (which, in itself, makes no sense) off-panel so quickly and abruptly, that the artist never got a chance to draw it and the reader never got a chance to see it. I find this manufacturing of pretense to be completely insulting.
Yup.Everyone is entitled to criticize.
Agree to disagree with this off-panel non-feat.
Originally posted by ODG
Neither is the absence of evidence, evidence.And somehow, this catastrophe of universal proportions was also conveniently resolved by the telepathic nudge.
All while taking several references of what the situation is, and what needs to be done. That's not exactly absence of evidence.
Originally posted by ODG
The comic states Jean staring at Sublime's atoms and asking, "Is this the future?" "M friends didn't deserve that." etc.
She maybe looking at the Sublimes Atoms. Yet that does excuse the fact that:
>she just stated she amputated the future.
>Phoenix tells her she amputated the future.
>Only to follow up with the task of healing the universe.
Jeans statements of "Is this the future?" "M friends didn't deserve that." affirm what the Phoenix stated as the main reason for Jean to lose control "You lost concentration" "became emotionally engaged".
Originally posted by ODG
Jean did not unwittingly sever a future timeline with telekinesis (which, in itself, makes no sense) off-panel so quickly and abruptly, that the artist never got a chance to draw it and the reader never got a chance to see it. I find this manufacturing of pretense to be completely insulting.Agree to disagree with this off-panel non-feat.
But meh.
Originally posted by "Id"It was resolved simply by the action that Jean would have taken in the first place to provide a different alternate future to 616 reality. What the hell does a telepathic nudge through time require any of the superfluous factors you're trying to force and conflate here with that simple resolution?
Yes. This cosmic calamity was conveniently resolved:
>With the aid of Cosmic Abstract.
>In the Nexus of realities.
>Witnessed by a counsel of equally empowered coworkers.All while taking several references of what the situation is, and what needs to be done. That's not exactly absence of evidence.
Everyone's just telling the ditzy hoe to not get caught up in Sublime's horror and in mourning her friends and the solution is as simple as letting Scott love another person because of the butterfly effect.
Originally posted by "Id"She was staring at Sublime and handling Sublime when she says all this. What don't you get? She's not talking about the future, she's talking about Sublime. Just as when she and the Phoenixforce were talking about coordinated disinfections as they were literally fighting Sublime.
She maybe looking at the Sublimes Atoms. Yet that does excuse the fact that:>she just stated she amputated the future.
>Phoenix tells her she amputated the future.
>Only to follow up with the task of healing the universe.Jeans statements of "Is this the future?" "M friends didn't deserve that." affirm what the Phoenix stated as the main reason for Jean to lose control "You lost concentration" "became emotionally engaged".
Originally posted by "Id"This was all a nice way of saying you're trying too hard to justify this myth. The direct dialogue literally equated the term, "future," with Sublime. She friggin stares at Sublime and asks, "Is this the future?" Now you expect any of us to believe that in the very next sentence, while still holding Sublime and staring at it, that she says "future" again but can only mean it in a different literal sense?????
Stating that I manufacture this pretense, is a nice way of calling me a liar. Which I strongly disagree, if I am following the direct dialogue from the comic itself.But meh.
You're free to believe your completely subjective interpretations that do not lend themselves rationally to the scenes in question. I just find it insulting that you expect me to believe this monumental feat of severing a timeline was (i) done completely off-panel, (ii) done nonsensically through telekinesis, (iii) is mentioned in one handbook but not several others, (iv) done inadvertently while Jean is carrying off Sublime to the White Hot Room, and (v) was resolved by the very same comic book trope used for resolving all alternate future crises.
Originally posted by ODG
It was resolved simply by the action that Jean would have taken in the first place to provide a different alternate future to 616 reality. What the hell does a telepathic nudge through time require any of the superfluous factors you're trying to force and conflate here with that simple resolution?
It is canon in Marvel that simply altering the past doesnt change the future, it creates a divergent timeline.
This was a situation Jean wanted to avoid so she disinfected reality by removing Sublime from it, she then states that the damage done to reality was so severe that she had to resort to amputating that future from the universe.
By removing the future before then altering the catalyst point that caused it (Scotts reaction to emma) a divergent future wasnt created, instead she perpetuated the current timeline.
Unprecedented.
Regardless of your opinion, the fact that she literally amputated the future is stated on panel, the fact that her time alteration didnt just cause a divergent timeline supports that such an action took place and furthermore the handbook verifies quite explicitly that Jean literally amputated that future from reality.
Your need to see a clearer visual depiction is your problem. The feat CAN be interpreted visually from how the future faded out of sight as she stated what she did. Your preferences do not come into this. Official publications reject your opinion.
Its really that simple 😬
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It is canon in Marvel that simply altering the past doesnt change the future, it creates a divergent timeline.This was a situation Jean wanted to avoid so she disinfected reality by removing Sublime from it, she then states that the damage done to reality was so severe that she had to resort to amputating that future from the universe.
By removing the future before then altering the catalyst point that caused it (Scotts reaction to emma) a divergent future wasnt created, instead she perpetuated the current timeline.
Unprecedented.
And then there's this, Kang's Third Law of Time Travel :
And there were like 4 or 5 more scans from different years and writers of Marvel comics confirming the above. Those two are the ones I just remembered off the top of my head.
