Time-Trapper Vs Phoenix Force

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No you become offensive just because I disagree?

I'm forever, everthing that is, was or will ever be... well not only Time it seems.

And here, since you like Handbooks and so.
http://marvel.com/universe/Eternity
Eternity came into existence when the universe was formed (along with Death, Oblivion, and Infinity) and spontaneously assumed the collective consciousness of all living things in the Universe. He is every living thing and every living thing is him; thus he controls everything in all plains of existence with the exception of the Living Tribunal, who maintains the cosmic balance of power. Eternity is the physical incarnation of time, whereas his sister Infinity represents space. Also, if Galactus ever dies or does not exist, the opposite of Eternity, Abraxas, would come into being. Eternity is guarded by Captain Universe.

And here, it seems, Marvel.com doesn't gives the Pf such a great role as you, a big one but not beyond the Universe or other Abstracts
http://marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_Force
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.”

So I can't agree with your "opinion" mine differs from what i have read and seen. Sure one can always take some things out of context and ignore everything else but looking at the Pf and it's appearances it's an Abstract, imho on the level of Galactus who still should be able to manipulate it, below Eternity and Death for sure. Sorry bro.

Forgive me if i came across as offensive but i was simply stating that your comments indicate a lack of understanding about the character youre debating about. Thats not offensive, just stating a fact, if you found offence in that then apologies.

Using bios off of Marvel.com bios which are created and editable by any who register on the site is about as credible as writing a university essay and referencing wikipedia as a source.

As i showed you, Eternitys official and published handbook bio clearly states that he is the embodiment of time and the chronal axis-

Even your bio makes the distinction that he is the embodiment of the timeline.

It all clearly states that he was derivative of the Big Bang as well.

And you cant try and demean my point as opinion when clear as day and explicitly on panel (thereby holding greater credibility than all other sources) the Phoenix Force is called the Big Bang in sources as recent as the Avengers Vs X-men series-

Big Bang

The Firebird avatar, a flame from the BIG BANG

Doesnt get much clearer than that. The Phoenix Force as we know it is the sentient Big Bang. After the multiverse was reset by the M'kraan crystal, the Phoenix Force was reborn anew as the Big Bang and its sentience eventually awakened to this new reality

Eternity is the emodiment of the 616 timeline

Heres Eternity in Jeans palm-

Manipulated down to his component atoms. NUFF SAID

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The Pf would TRY to remove the Timeline but given his greater powers over time, his experiance and his Timemanipulatiing feats he wouldn't let her, simple as that, he showed the power. He is better with Time then the PF, really.

BTW can you show me the PF taking out every and all timelines, removing Time in your words, Eternity, from existance? So that there is no time in the Universe?

Not true at all.

TT manipulates the content of timelines. Jeans Phoenix power allowed her to play editor and to amputate timelines and regrow them as and when she desired. Its like micro vs macro.

As stated in the bios, time came into being following the big bang. It is a facet of reality. If Jean was to casually destroy the timeline as she did here:

Then TT would have nothing to manipulate and would be powerless.

Using Jaspers as an example. He was an enormously powerful reality warper, but take him out of reality and his power then becomes redundant

Timelines begin with the Big Bang, they dont exist without reality. If the Phoenix Force destroyed the timeline it and TT were fighting in then what exactly would TT do?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forgive me if i came across as offensive but i was simply stating that your comments indicate a lack of understanding about the character youre debating about. Thats not offensive, just stating a fact, if you found offence in that then apologies.

Using bios off of Marvel.com bios which are created and editable by any who register on the site is about as credible as writing a university essay and referencing wikipedia as a source.

As i showed you, Eternitys official and published handbook bio clearly states that he is the embodiment of time and the chronal axis-

Even your bio makes the distinction that he is the embodiment of the timeline.

It all clearly states that he was derivative of the Big Bang as well.

And you cant try and demean my point as opinion when clear as day and explicitly on panel (thereby holding greater credibility than all other sources) the Phoenix Force is called the Big Bang in sources as recent as the Avengers Vs X-men series-

Big Bang

The Firebird avatar, a flame from the BIG BANG

Doesnt get much clearer than that. The Phoenix Force as we know it is the sentient Big Bang. After the multiverse was reset by the M'kraan crystal, the Phoenix Force was reborn anew as the Big Bang and its sentience eventually awakened to this new reality

Eternity is the emodiment of the 616 timeline

Heres Eternity in Jeans palm-

Manipulated down to his component atoms. NUFF SAID

Ok, let's stay nice^^.

It's as good as those Handbooks and goes pretty well with most poeple opinions, no offense, your theory is just exotic.

And His word and his appearance tell us that he is also everything that is was and will ever be, right?

In the first "BigBang" scan the word Big Bang is missing, Tony says a lot but the word, I can find it...

A statement from Reed is nice. Though call it what you want is kind of vague...

As for the third scan "A Flame from the furnace of the big bang is in my opinion not the same as being the big bang itself. On the contrary it sound like it was spawned by the Big Bang, like it was "made" "Created" by it and not like it IS the BigBang or whats more important in control of it. It's like a tool... that's how it sounds.

4th scan, so it was born from the BigBang, it's sentience awakened after it, so it isn't more then what it is, a sentient destructive force born through the big bang. It can't be the space, the time, the concept of Death, it's not more then a part of the whole thing. Actually your evidence showed me exactly the contrary thing.

If the PF would be the Creator of the Marvel U and not a tool used to create the MArvel U, it should be in complete control of the Marvel Omniverse and all other Abstracts wouldn't be needed.

I think the PF is like a spark, it's vital but and helps to get the fire burning but it isn't the wood or more then a spark. A part of a larger system not more. It's not the "boss" of eternity, death or Galactus nor are they a part of the PF, they just use it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternity is the emodiment of the 616 timeline

Heres Eternity in Jeans palm-

Manipulated down to his component atoms. NUFF SAID

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Timelines begin with the Big Bang, they dont exist without reality. If the Phoenix Force destroyed the timeline it and TT were fighting in then what exactly would TT do?

First the Pf would have to destroy all timelines, time itself which means Eternity, right? She never did such a thing. And one Timeline won't be enough, Time and Eternity would have to be gone for the TT to be without work in the Marvel U.

Since the Pf exists within the Timeline and is a part of the Universe. TT already knows the battle, the outcome and how to change it He would travel to the beginning of Time, to the BigBang if you insist and stop it from happening, easy right? Since Phoenix gained sentience after the BigBang he could change the Timeline to not allow that to happen.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Eternity is a badly wounded orphan universe?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.

Originally posted by ODG
This is also apparently Eternity being lit on fire:

In that scene Jeans just using telepathy, since when does telepathy burn physical matter? 🙂

^ Well I see the Phoenix flaring as clearly as I see the universe.

But if you're saying both are simple symbolic visualizations in her hands, I can get with that. You're right that all Jean did was use telepathy to nudge Scott. You hardly need to manifest the actual universe in your hands to do so.

👆

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok, let's stay nice^^.

It's as good as those Handbooks and goes pretty well with most poeple opinions, no offense, your theory is just exotic.

Its as good as the handbooks because it coincides with your opinion? Not good enough. Its a publicly editable info source like wikipedia. Not seen as reputable enough here for referencing. That would be officially published handbooks and whats stated and shown on panel.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
And His word and his appearance tell us that he is also everything that is was and will ever be, right?

Since the 1990's Eternity has been defined as the chronal axis. He embodies everything along the timeline however he is a sentient concept. He is not the physical substance of creation, thats where him and the PF differ.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
In the first "BigBang" scan the word Big Bang is missing, Tony says a lot but the word, I can find it...

Not really. Heres a clear mention-

Tony Stark in an effort to learn about the Phoenix Force uses particle accelerators to study the Big Bang.

He then states that in an attempt to kill the Phoenix Force, he needs to stop universal expansion, which we know is down to the Big Bang

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
A statement from Reed is nice. Though call it what you want is kind of vague...

Vague how? He states clear as day that Galactus was transformed by the energies or creation. And then says those can be referred to as either the Phoenix Force or the Big Bang, equating them. Thats an explicit reference.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As for the third scan "A Flame from the furnace of the big bang is in my opinion not the same as being the big bang itself. On the contrary it sound like it was spawned by the Big Bang, like it was "made" "Created" by it and not like it IS the BigBang or whats more important in control of it. It's like a tool... that's how it sounds.

The firebird is an avatar. Not the sum of the Phoenix Force but a manifestation of its sentience within reality.

Avatar-

Avatar-

Avatar-

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
4th scan, so it was born from the BigBang, it's sentience awakened after it, so it isn't more then what it is, a sentient destructive force born through the big bang. It can't be the space, the time, the concept of Death, it's not more then a part of the whole thing. Actually your evidence showed me exactly the contrary thing.

Nope. It is the Big Bang turned sentient as the scan clearly shows.

Which is why you get scans like this

of the Phoenix Force saying it was born with the first fire but more importantly that it is all that is, everything that lives is touched by it and it is the mother of the stars. Stars being the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter

Which also ties into Kubik stating the same thing, the power source behind the stars is the Phoenix Force

If the PF was just a standalone flame from the Big Bang it wouldnt be all that is as stated, the power source behind the stars and if it was to leave reality it wouldnt result in a void as verified by Death and the Watcher-

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
If the PF would be the Creator of the Marvel U and not a tool used to create the MArvel U, it should be in complete control of the Marvel Omniverse and all other Abstracts wouldn't be needed.

The PF isnt the creator of the Marvel Universe. If thats what you think im saying then no wonder you have an issue with my argument.

The PF was itself created, it is the sentient energies of all creation and it manifests at a universal level either as its Firebird avatar or through hosts to perpetuate evolution and the creation cycle. It plays a role as do the Abstracts however its feats are greater than the Abstracts and as Eternity admitted without the PF he would not exist.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I think the PF is like a spark, it's vital but and helps to get the fire burning but it isn't the wood or more then a spark. A part of a larger system not more. It's not the "boss" of eternity, death or Galactus nor are they a part of the PF, they just use it.

The PF perpetuates the creation cycle so it is the spark and the snuff, however it is on numerous occasions by reputable characters called the Big Bang, this point is verified by cosmics who call it the power source behind the stars and that without it in reality there would be no energy and matter a void. What turns the void into reality? The Big Bang.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Well I see the Phoenix flaring as clearly as I see the universe.

But if you're saying both are simple symbolic visualizations in her hands, I can get with that. You're right that all Jean did was use telepathy to nudge Scott. You hardly need to manifest the actual universe in your hands to do so.

👆

When characters like Jean and Rachel use their telepathy they regularly manifest a Phoenix energy signature of psionic energy, but as we all know telepathic energy does not burn physical matter, so the universe in her hand did just fine.

Thanks for your time 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When characters like Jean and Rachel use their telepathy they regularly manifest a Phoenix energy signature of psionic energy, but as we all know telepathic energy does not burn physical matter, so the universe in her hand did just fine.

Thanks for your time 🙂

Thanks for wasting our's. kinda

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
First the Pf would have to destroy all timelines, time itself which means Eternity, right? She never did such a thing. And one Timeline won't be enough, Time and Eternity would have to be gone for the TT to be without work in the Marvel U.

Since the Pf exists within the Timeline and is a part of the Universe. TT already knows the battle, the outcome and how to change it He would travel to the beginning of Time, to the BigBang if you insist and stop it from happening, easy right? Since Phoenix gained sentience after the BigBang he could change the Timeline to not allow that to happen.

Time is a facet of the universe. If you destroy the universe then time ends in that dimension.

Phoenix as shown on panel and as verified by the handbook has casually destroyed a timeline, not just a universe/Eternity at a specific point in time, but instead the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. So yes she has done such a thing.

And why would she have to destroy all timelines? That makes no sense. She'd just have to destroy the timeline that the battle takes place in and then TT is powerless in a similar fashion to this-

A perfectly gd analogy. Remove the universe from the equation, render the battlefield a void and then the characters wouldnt be within a timeline for TTs powers to have any effect. What is he gonna do? TT manipulates the timestream and can effect those within it, remove the sculptors clay and what use is he? Zzzz. DEAD. 😬

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I was going to say Trapper, but those scans convinced me otherwise.

Phoenix, easily.

Originally posted by Lord Feron

All we need is h1 arguing on Phoenix's side, and we'll have him..

Originally posted by ODG
I am well aware of Phoenix halos flaring up from their own person when they use telepathy. Not inside or on top of other objects or people's heads when they use telepathy on them. And, yes, I recognize the symbolic visualization of a universe was just fine. Because a simple telepathic nudge of Scott's mind hardly requires manifesting an entire actual universe.

Thanks for wasting our's. kinda

Im not going to play your game.
You tried to be clever and funny with your universe on fire point, i reminded you she was using telepathy and flopped it for ya. Now youre trying to mount another attack. Youre a funny guy 🙂

^ Why would anybody willingly contribute to their own deconstruction?

A Phoenix users' own firebird halo (which doesn't appear on top of other people's heads or objects) has nothing to do with a symbolic visualization of a Phoenix firebird or a symbolic visualization of a universe. Because we both know you don't need to hold an entire actual universe into your hands to transmit one telepathic suggestion to one person's mind.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Time is a facet of the universe. If you destroy the universe then time ends in that dimension.

Phoenix as shown on panel and as verified by the handbook has casually destroyed a timeline, not just a universe/Eternity at a specific point in time, but instead the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. So yes she has done such a thing.

And why would she have to destroy all timelines? That makes no sense. She'd just have to destroy the timeline that the battle takes place in and then TT is powerless in a similar fashion to this-

A perfectly gd analogy. Remove the universe from the equation, render the battlefield a void and then the characters wouldnt be within a timeline for TTs powers to have any effect. What is he gonna do? TT manipulates the timestream and can effect those within it, remove the sculptors clay and what use is he? Zzzz. DEAD. 😬

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper is a sentient timeline himself who exists at the end of time where neither time nor space can exist because of entropy. Learn about a character before arguing against it.

Unless theyre fighting within Time Trappers gut i dont see how that changes anything.

I read your earlier post and it effected nothing, so i continued on with the main argument going on between me and Batman-Prime.

Thank you 👆

Originally posted by ODG
^ Why would anybody willingly contribute to their own deconstruction?

A Phoenix users' own firebird halo (which doesn't appear on top of other people's heads or objects) has nothing to do with a symbolic visualization of a Phoenix firebird or a symbolic visualization of a universe. Because we both know you don't need to hold an entire actual universe into your hands to transmit one telepathic suggestion to one person's mind.

Contributing to my what? 😱

Lets not get ahead of ourselves now 😄

Not true at all. Telepaths unique energy signatures often enshroud what theyre connected to, you can see this often with Karmas zig zag signature and Psylockes butterfly im sorry youve missed that well known part of continuity.

We'll leave it at that shall we? 🙂