Gaara>crocodile

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, but you still haven't proven that the attack is as fast as you claim it to be. You need actual speed feats to do that, not just a "similarity."

Crocodile suddenly appears behind Whitebeard and then hangs there for 3 panels before attacking. Looks like a pause to me, especially since he's talking. I never said it wouldn't cost him his chance, and it did, just that he he did appear to pause.

Also, he sort of blitzed Akainu

Then, because I believe it was relevant earlier, Crocodile explains that he can turn rocks into sand when Vivi's father plans to bury him in rubble. Plus, his poison/acid thing also dissolves rock. Just saying.

Edit: Shouldn't this thread be in the vs. forum?

I don't have to as the attack itself is fast and gaara's skill is much better in part 2.

Well he did not pause as it is both illogical to his agenda of killing whitebeard and also you should remember he only said one thing and was still moving when he was doing it. The other panels are to show peoples reactions and such.

He did not blitz akainu at all his attack hit a distracted akainu. Nothing more nothing less.

I don't think so as no mod closed it.

Well that is kinda irrelevant but okay.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Post: Make (information) available on the Internet

The reason the quote function doesn't quote everything is because it is not needed. However, the information is still available with every reply and statement you've made. The immature "your mom" joke is literally always there with you. You consider it as important enough to include everywhere.

And you said "ok" because you thought I couldn't prove it. Or maybe you did know where I was headed but I doubt it, considering you gave no indication that you did. And no, I didn't put faith in your promise. I've known from the beginning what every step of this conversation would be. The next reply towards me will consist of arguing over the definition of the word post, desperately trying in vein to make sure that everyone knows that I'm wrong about the "your mom" joke thing, for the sole reason of trying to come off as more intelligent/mature than you are(the former no one believes and the latter is proven wrong with each post). You'll wrap up the post by saying how I suck at debating and how everything I do is some kind of desperate tirade(not that I think you know what it means, since it doesn't really apply to anyone's post in this thread except yours).

Of course, once I post this you'll probably try not to do the things listed above(aside from insulting my debating skills) in order to prove me wrong but ultimately I don't think you'll succeed in that endeavor. Or maybe you will say those things because I predicted that you would try not to? Who knows.

I love how your trying to list every possible scenario that I will do so the moment I do it you come across as smart. It reeks of desperation and the tactic has elements of reverse psychology. Unfortunately for you your little predictions change nothing. You lost the debate and simply could not muster a strong counter argument. Covering my point in the idea that you knew it was coming does not change the fact that it is true. In fact it gives way to the idea that you recognized the flaw and built a argument to weaken it and soften the blow by making it look predictable. Sucks for you cuz at the end of the day I was the victor of my agenda and that is all that matters. It may be predictable but hey it's the truth. 🙂
Gaara>Crocodile you mad
And it is funny that you are still here considering you basically said yesterday that you don't care who wins or what happens. Another reason why people would know that your little stories are fake.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
I don't have to as the attack itself is fast and gaara's skill is much better in part 2.

You made the claim that Kimmimaro's bone bullets were as fast as real bullets. You do have to prove that, or drop the point. After that, you can either concede that Crocodile is faster than Gaara, or you can find a better speed feat.

Well he did not pause as it is both illogical to his agenda of killing whitebeard and also you should remember he only said one thing and was still moving when he was doing it. The other panels are to show peoples reactions and such.

He did pause, for three panels. Logic has nothing to do with what we actually see Crocodile doing on-panel, which is just sit there, not moving, until he says something and then makes an attack. It may have been detrimental to his plans, but that's indeed what he did. The other panels are showing reactions, yes, but they also show Crocodile floating behind Whitebeard, not otherwise moving, for a total of three panels.

He did not blitz akainu at all his attack hit a distracted akainu. Nothing more nothing less.

Ok, his sand went went through and into a guy made of magma without damage. Pretty cool. (I'm not actually arguing this point, just so you know.)

I don't think so as no mod closed it.

Well it is essentially Gaara vs. Crocodile, isn't it? That should go in the vs. forum.

Well that is kinda irrelevant but okay.

I think it's relevant to the earlier "Gaara traps Crocodile in dense sand" argument. If Crocodile can turn rocks to loose sand or melt them, he could escape much easier. Plus, he could conceivably dissolve through Gaara's armor with his poisacid.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
I love how your trying to list every possible scenario that I will do so the moment I do it you come across as smart. It reeks of desperation and the tactic has elements of reverse psychology. Unfortunately for you your little predictions change nothing. You lost the debate and simply could not muster a strong counter argument. Covering my point in the idea that you knew it was coming does not change the fact that it is true. In fact it gives way to the idea that you recognized the flaw and built a argument to weaken it and soften the blow by making it look predictable. Sucks for you cuz at the end of the day I was the victor of my agenda and that is all that matters. It may be predictable but hey it's the truth. 🙂
Gaara>Crocodile you mad
And it is funny that you are still here considering you basically said yesterday that you don't care who wins or what happens. Another reason why people would know that your little stories are fake.

*sigh*

No, you're wrong again. I didn't list every possible scenario. I listed the two courses of actions that you would take but not the only ones. And yeah, insulting my debating skills. Called it.

Look kid(and you are a kid to me), try not to get so riled up. I managed to get you so tore up about something so silly as the definition of post. You really need to stop that. On top of not really being a good debater in all objectivity(case in point, you will not beat Scenario with regards to the bullet thing), your serious nature will just make it really easy for people to get under your skin. No, that is not an insult. Until one really adjusts to a new place(you've been here a few months compared to people that have been here a year), they do suck at arguing. My first posts were abysmal for example. Just chill and have fun with things. No need to get so stuffy(particularly when everyone can see you're not as mature as you want to appear to be).

So yeah, I'm done with this thread. I might look in on it to see how the debate is going. If I'm lucky, maybe someone will find a calc for the whole finger bullet thing. Anyway, you can go ahead and quote this and say the same old "Haha just what id expect from someone who can't debate" thing because that's what you're going to do. Unless, hopefully, you realize that it's best to drop the pointless discussion without needing to get the final word in. But we'll see I guess.

Oh and hey, an edit. And...well I'll just leave it be.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You made the claim that Kimmimaro's bone bullets were as fast as real bullets. You do have to prove that, or drop the point. After that, you can either concede that Crocodile is faster than Gaara, or you can find a better speed feat.

He did pause, for three panels. Logic has nothing to do with what we actually see Crocodile doing on-panel, which is just sit there, not moving, until he says something and then makes an attack. It may have been detrimental to his plans, but that's indeed what he did. The other panels are showing reactions, yes, but they also show Crocodile floating behind Whitebeard, not otherwise moving, for a total of three panels.

Ok, his sand went went through and into a guy made of magma without damage. Pretty cool. (I'm not actually arguing this point, just so you know.)

Well it is essentially Gaara vs. Crocodile, isn't it? That should go in the vs. forum.

I think it's relevant to the earlier "Gaara traps Crocodile in dense sand" argument. If Crocodile can turn rocks to loose sand or melt them, he could escape much easier. Plus, he could conceivably dissolve through Gaara's armor with his poisacid.

Crocodile does not have any good speed feats other than intercepting mihawk which means nothing as countless other characters who have intercepted an attack have intercepted one from someone faster. Plus one character has to be significantly faster than the other to speedblitz or take the opponent by surprise which croc is not.

He did not pause at the moment he was moving into to strike they showed a bunch of people reacting to it. Him making a comment does not mean he has to stand still and make it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6aFbP63cg
There the anime shows it better he was still moving in mid air and talking at the same time he did not stop.

Gaara can control and make sure his sand does not loosen and we do not know what happens when crocodile uses his dehydration ability on sand itself. Gaara can control him or intermix his chakra rich sand with crocodile to control him that way. Plus he cannot break through gaara sand.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
*sigh*

No, you're wrong again. I didn't list every possible scenario. I listed the two courses of actions that you would take but not the only ones. And yeah, insulting my debating skills. Called it.

Look kid(and you are a kid to me), try not to get so riled up. I managed to get you so tore up about something so silly as the definition of post. You really need to stop that. On top of not really being a good debater in all objectivity(case in point, you will not beat Scenario with regards to the bullet thing), your serious nature will just make it really easy for people to get under your skin. No, that is not an insult. Until one really adjusts to a new place(you've been here a few months compared to people that have been here a year), they do suck at arguing. My first posts were abysmal for example. Just chill and have fun with things. No need to get so stuffy(particularly when everyone can see you're not as mature as you want to appear to be).

So yeah, I'm done with this thread. I might look in on it to see how the debate is going. If I'm lucky, maybe someone will find a calc for the whole finger bullet thing. Anyway, you can go ahead and quote this and say the same old "Haha just what id expect from someone who can't debate" thing because that's what you're going to do. Unless, hopefully, you realize that it's best to drop the pointless discussion without needing to get the final word in. But we'll see I guess.

Oh and hey, an edit. And...well I'll just leave it be.

As I said it does not matter if you called it it does not change the fact it is true.
Well if you say it ends than fine cuz I do not want to argue anymore especially this off topic.

Since you didn't mention Kimimaru I assume you've officially dropped the point. Nice from you.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Crocodile does not have any good speed feats other than intercepting mihawk which means nothing as countless other characters who have intercepted an attack have intercepted one from someone faster. Plus one character has to be significantly faster than the other to speedblitz or take the opponent by surprise which croc is not.

Aside from fighting bullet timing Luffy, you mean. Who else has intercepted an attack while not being fast, just for reference? Intercepting attacks I would consider a pretty good speed feat.

He did not pause at the moment he was moving into to strike they showed a bunch of people reacting to it. Him making a comment does not mean he has to stand still and make it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6aFbP63cg
There the anime shows it better he was still moving in mid air and talking at the same time he did not stop.

Then the anime and the manga are showing two different things. In the manga, you can clearly see Crocodile suddenly appears behind Whiebeard and then hangs there, whereas the anime showed him moving to get to Whitebeard. Justify it any way you like, but the anime has diverged from the manga in this case. It does that pretty often. Either way, Crocodile didn't seem to be trying to move that quickly.

Gaara can control and make sure his sand does not loosen and we do not know what happens when crocodile uses his dehydration ability on sand itself. Gaara can control him or intermix his chakra rich sand with crocodile to control him that way. Plus he cannot break through gaara sand.

We've never actually seen someone try to wrest control of their sand away from either Crocodile or Gaara, have we? At most, I'd think it would more action/reaction than anything- Gaara hardens the sand, Crocodile loosens it, Gaara does something else with it, and so on. And actually, we have seen Crocodile's dehydration ability stretch pretty far:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-5/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-6/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-7/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-8/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-9/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-10/one-piece/chapter-201.html

So Crocodile touches the ground, and everything in contact with the ground starts dehydrating, too. Then he just turns it all into sand. Plus, he has that one attack where he dehydrates people using sand:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2285-10/one-piece/chapter-178.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2285-11/one-piece/chapter-178.html

So all Crocodile really has to do is touch Gaara with his right hand, and he can drain him right through the armor, possibly even using the armor to do it.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Aside from fighting bullet timing Luffy, you mean. Who else has intercepted an attack while not being fast, just for reference? Intercepting attacks I would consider a pretty good speed feat.

Then the anime and the manga are showing two different things. In the manga, you can clearly see Crocodile suddenly appears behind Whiebeard and then hangs there, whereas the anime showed him moving to get to Whitebeard. Justify it any way you like, but the anime has diverged from the manga in this case. It does that pretty often. Either way, Crocodile didn't seem to be trying to move that quickly.

We've never actually seen someone try to wrest control of their sand away from either Crocodile or Gaara, have we? At most, I'd think it would more action/reaction than anything- Gaara hardens the sand, Crocodile loosens it, Gaara does something else with it, and so on. And actually, we have seen Crocodile's dehydration ability stretch pretty far:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-5/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-6/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-7/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-8/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-9/one-piece/chapter-201.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2308-10/one-piece/chapter-201.html

So Crocodile touches the ground, and everything in contact with the ground starts dehydrating, too. Then he just turns it all into sand. Plus, he has that one attack where he dehydrates people using sand:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2285-10/one-piece/chapter-178.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2285-11/one-piece/chapter-178.html

So all Crocodile really has to do is touch Gaara with his right hand, and he can drain him right through the armor, possibly even using the armor to do it.

Crocodile is no where in league with mihawk at all mihawk is top tier crocodile is not even close. He was probably watching and waiting for mihawk to strike.

No they are not what don't you get in the manga we have to see different panels to see other people"fodders" reaction to crocodile he was moving the whole time. In fact if you look at the art in the specific manga page they have lines around crocodile when he was talking and moving which is a indication of his movement. Face it crocodile was spotted by fodder he is not that fast.

Does his dehydration ability work on sand? It might not be able to loosen the sand enough as sand has no moisture. And gaara has better feats and showed more versatility so logically gaara has better control and can control crocodile. Crocodile looses hardcore.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Crocodile is no where in league with mihawk at all mihawk is top tier crocodile is not even close. He was probably watching and waiting for mihawk to strike.

"Probably" isn't what we actually see, though. What we see is Mihwak going to attack, and Crocodile intercepting it. Anything else is speculation. Both of them are or were Shichibukai, and they are in pretty much the same tier, or Crocodile couldn't have done what he did.

No they are not what don't you get in the manga we have to see different panels to see other people"fodders" reaction to crocodile he was moving the whole time. In fact if you look at the art in the specific manga page they have lines around crocodile when he was talking and moving which is a indication of his movement. Face it crocodile was spotted by fodder he is not that fast.

Crocodile does not move for three panels after appearing behind Whitebeard. The lines around Crocodile as he talks are in the fourth panel, which indicates that he was not really moving before that point. That is what we see. Now, it's speculation, but one could argue that Crocodile wanted everyone to see him, or at least wanted Whitebeard to know it was Crocodile who killed him. That pause cost him his chance, but he did, to all appearances, pause.

Does his dehydration ability work on sand? It might not be able to loosen the sand enough as sand has no moisture. And gaara has better feats and showed more versatility so logically gaara has better control and can control crocodile. Crocodile looses hardcore.

The scan clearly shows Crocodile's dehydration ability working through the ground, and on anything that was in contact with the ground at the time, including the grass, trees, building, and Luffy. If Crocodile touches Gaara's armor, the effect would go through just as it did the ground, as Gaara is in contact with the armor. As for Gaara showing more precise control, and control larger amounts of sand, that doesn't mean his control overrides Crocodile's or vice versa, or that he can control Crocodile's body. Even if it did, Crocodile can just return to human form.

Originally posted by The Scenario
"Probably" isn't what we actually see, though. What we see is Mihwak going to attack, and Crocodile intercepting it. Anything else is speculation. Both of them are or were Shichibukai, and they are in pretty much the same tier, or Crocodile couldn't have done what he did.

Crocodile does not move for three panels after appearing behind Whitebeard. The lines around Crocodile as he talks are in the fourth panel, which indicates that he was not really moving before that point. That is what we see. Now, it's speculation, but one could argue that Crocodile wanted everyone to see him, or at least wanted Whitebeard to know it was Crocodile who killed him. That pause cost him his chance, but he did, to all appearances, pause.

The scan clearly shows Crocodile's dehydration ability working through the ground, and on anything that was in contact with the ground at the time, including the grass, trees, building, and Luffy. If Crocodile touches Gaara's armor, the effect would go through just as it did the ground, as Gaara is in contact with the armor. As for Gaara showing more precise control, and control larger amounts of sand, that doesn't mean his control overrides Crocodile's or vice versa, or that he can control Crocodile's body. Even if it did, Crocodile can just return to human form.

They are not in the same tier they may have the same position but bot the same tier. For example hashirama and the current kage have the same title but he is considered stronger than the five of them combined. Crocodile intercepting the attack is not that impressive as he attacked someone who was fighting some other people.

You are just going into denial now. The three panels are occurring at the same time to show people's reaction to it. And it makes no sense to announce to whitebeard his presence as he could easily do that after he strikes him. Or it is possible that he was so slow that everyone has enough time to put in their reaction though im pretty sure their reaction happened at the same time as he was moving his arm to strike while talking at the same time.
The idea he would stop is illogical. And there is proof in both the artwork and the animation that crocodile was still moving. He is slow and was spotted by fodder period.

What is the final product of his dehydration touch? SAND so what would happen if he tried to dehydrate sand itself which has no moisture and is the lowest form for objects that have lost their moisture? NOTHING. The effect would not go through as it spreads like an infection and must first dehydrate to front or top of what it is touching to continue which it cannot.

Yes it does if two people control the same element the one with the stronger control will be able to control said element and override the others control. For example their is a piece of metal and to magnets on either side of it. Both have the ability to attract it but only one can. The magnet with the stronger magnetic field or pull will be the victor. Gaara is the stronger magnet and Crocodile is the weaker.
May I ask what advantage does crocodile get from turning human? He becomes weaker and slower and more vulnerable to boot. If he has sand coming in all directions and he decides to turn human cuz he is getting manhandled then he would just get crushed and for sure killed ans he is mostly useless in human form.

-Crocodile can be controlled
-Crocodile is slower than you think
-Crocodile has no way of penetrating gaara's defense
-If crocodile is caught in sand he has no way of getting out because...
-He does not have the power to get out
-He can't dehydrate the sand
-He cannot fuse with the sand and if he did he would expose himself to chakra rich sand letting gaara control him in another way
-Crocodile will then be sealed and it is over
Gaara>Crocodile!

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
They are not in the same tier they may have the same position but bot the same tier. For example hashirama and the current kage have the same title but he is considered stronger than the five of them combined. Crocodile intercepting the attack is not that impressive as he attacked someone who was fighting some other people.

A lot of the Shichibukai are around the same tier, though. Crocodile had a brief fight with Doflamingo, for example, and if his attack on Akainu is any indication they're reasonably near Admiral level. In Impel Down, he was stored on the same level as Jimbe, who can catch Gear 2 Luffy. Still, we see Crocodile intercepting the attack, and I'm not sure why you don't think it's impressive, speedwise. How about fighting Luffy, who can dodge bullets since the beginning of the manga? Really, bullet speed isn't that great to One Piece mid-tiers, and if Crocodile wasn't fast he wouldn't have survived Marineford.

You are just going into denial now. The three panels are occurring at the same time to show people's reaction to it. And it makes no sense to announce to whitebeard his presence as he could easily do that after he strikes him. Or it is possible that he was so slow that everyone has enough time to put in their reaction though im pretty sure their reaction happened at the same time as he was moving his arm to strike while talking at the same time.
The idea he would stop is illogical. And there is proof in both the artwork and the animation that crocodile was still moving. He is slow and was spotter by fodder period.

What is there to indicate the panels are all happening at the same time? I mean, is there any actual evidence or are you just guessing that? I just ask because, well, we see Crocodile stop for three panels, and the movement lines only appear on the final panel and not before. You seem to be reaching for a way to make Crocodile seem slow, but he's really not. I mean, it's "illogical" that he would stop? Most of Crocodile's fights with Luffy consisted of him stopping to talk, in Impel Down he stopped to let soldiers shoot him before doing anything, and he even stopped to talk to Doflamingo before attacking. By "logic," Crocodile stopping is a repeated pattern that the attack on Whitebeard continued. It's well within his character. Heck, the thing that breaks the pattern is his attack on Akainu, where he attacks first and then stops to talk.

What is the final product of his dehydration touch? SAND so what would happen if he tried to dehydrate sand itself which has no moisture and is the lowest form for objects that have lost their moisture? NOTHING. The effect would not go through as it spreads like an infection and must first dehydrate to front or top of what it is touching to continue which it cannot.

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying here. Crocodile's touch can travel through sand, to affect anything touching the sand. Gaara isn't made of sand, so Crocodile can dehydrate him when the effect passes through the sand armor. The effect passes through rock, as well, which doesn't actually have that much moisture, either.

Yes it does if two people control the same element the one with the stronger control will be able to control said element and override the others control. For example their is a piece of metal and to magnets on either side of it. Both have the ability to attract it but only one can. The magnet with the stronger magnetic field or pull will be the victor. Gaara is the stronger magnet and Crocodile is the weaker.

Not necessarily. Gaara has shown the ability to control a greater volume of sand, and with more precision, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a stronger controlling effect. We can't actually determine the strength of control until someone tries to contest it. Magnets are fine, but I think we can go simpler, assuming what you're saying is true. One force acts on an object, while another force acts in the opposite direction. The stronger force will win, yes, but what happens? Well, the net force is reduced in the direction the stronger force is pushing. Let's say Gaara and Crocodile try to control the same sand, assuming Gaara has the stronger control. That doesn't suddenly mean Crocodile can do nothing to affect the sand. If he's "pushing" in the opposite direction, he can weaken Gaara's "push" by that much. The end result of both controlling the same sand is Gaara getting a slower, weaker version of what he would otherwise get. For the same reason, your piece of metal between the magnets will go to the stronger one, but it'll be moving much slower than it would be if the other magnet wasn't there.

Essentially, Crocodile doing anything will mess up Gaara control to some degree.

May I ask what advantage does crocodile get from turning human? He becomes weaker and slower and more vulnerable to boot. If he has sand coming in all directions and he decides to turn human cuz he is getting manhandled then he would just get crushed and for sure killed ans he is mostly useless in human form.

Aside from shutting down any attempt of Gaara's to control him (which he would have a hard time doing, see above), Crocodile's human form is one of the only ways he can use his dehydration attack and poisacid hook. Should Gaara try to crush him sand he could melt his way out, for instance. Or, he could just switch between human and sand form like he normally does, while Gaara tries to control him and use his own sand at the same time, which would not be as easy as you seem to believe.

-Crocodile can be controlled

Doubtful, and any attempt would reduce Gaara's control over his own sand. The attempt can be immediately shut down by Crocodile going human for a second and then back to sand, forcing Gaara to start over. That sounds really distracting for Gaara to try.

-Crocodile is slower than you think

He's faster than you seem to think, though. Bullets aren't too big a deal for anybody. Heck, Das Bones can cut them out of the air, you think Crocodile's not that good?

-Crocodile has no way of penetrating gaara's defense

Dehydration or poisacid.

-If crocodile is caught in sand he has no way of getting out because...
-He does not have the power to get out
-He can't dehydrate the sand
-He cannot fuse with the sand and if he did he would expose himself to chakra rich sand letting gaara control him in another way
-Crocodile will then be seales and it is over

You're repeating yourself here. Crocodile's fast enough to get out, or avoid getting caught in sand in the first place. He can dehydrate through sand. He can't fuse with sand, though. I doubt the seal will work in time.

Gaara>Crocodile!

That has yet to be determined.

Originally posted by The Scenario
A lot of the Shichibukai are around the same tier, though. Crocodile had a brief fight with Doflamingo, for example, and if his attack on Akainu is any indication they're reasonably near Admiral level. In Impel Down, he was stored on the same level as Jimbe, who can catch Gear 2 Luffy. Still, we see Crocodile intercepting the attack, and I'm not sure why you don't think it's impressive, speedwise. How about fighting Luffy, who can dodge bullets since the beginning of the manga? Really, bullet speed isn't that great to One Piece mid-tiers, and if Crocodile wasn't fast he wouldn't have survived Marineford.

What is there to indicate the panels are all happening at the same time? I mean, is there any actual evidence or are you just guessing that? I just ask because, well, we see Crocodile stop for three panels, and the movement lines only appear on the final panel and not before. You seem to be reaching for a way to make Crocodile seem slow, but he's really not. I mean, it's "illogical" that he would stop? Most of Crocodile's fights with Luffy consisted of him stopping to talk, in Impel Down he stopped to let soldiers shoot him before doing anything, and he even stopped to talk to Doflamingo before attacking. By "logic," Crocodile stopping is a repeated pattern that the attack on Whitebeard continued. It's well within his character. Heck, the thing that breaks the pattern is his attack on Akainu, where he attacks first and then stops to talk.

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying here. Crocodile's touch can travel through sand, to affect anything touching the sand. Gaara isn't made of sand, so Crocodile can dehydrate him when the effect passes through the sand armor. The effect passes through rock, as well, which doesn't actually have that much moisture, either.

Not necessarily. Gaara has shown the ability to control a greater volume of sand, and with more precision, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a stronger controlling effect. We can't actually determine the strength of control until someone tries to contest it. Magnets are fine, but I think we can go simpler, assuming what you're saying is true. One force acts on an object, while another force acts in the opposite direction. The stronger force will win, yes, but what happens? Well, the net force is reduced in the direction the stronger force is pushing. Let's say Gaara and Crocodile try to control the same sand, assuming Gaara has the stronger control. That doesn't suddenly mean Crocodile can do nothing to affect the sand. If he's "pushing" in the opposite direction, he can weaken Gaara's "push" by that much. The end result of both controlling the same sand is Gaara getting a slower, weaker version of what he would otherwise get. For the same reason, your piece of metal between the magnets will go to the stronger one, but it'll be moving much slower than it would be if the other magnet wasn't there.

Essentially, Crocodile doing anything will mess up Gaara control to some degree.

Aside from shutting down any attempt of Gaara's to control him (which he would have a hard time doing, see above), Crocodile's human form is one of the only ways he can use his dehydration attack and poisacid hook. Should Gaara try to crush him sand he could melt his way out, for instance. Or, he could just switch between human and sand form like he normally does, while Gaara tries to control him and use his own sand at the same time, which would not be as easy as you seem to believe.

Doubtful, and any attempt would reduce Gaara's control over his own sand. The attempt can be immediately shut down by Crocodile going human for a second and then back to sand, forcing Gaara to start over. That sounds really distracting for Gaara to try.

He's faster than you seem to think, though. Bullets aren't too big a deal for anybody. Heck, Das Bones can cut them out of the air, you think Crocodile's not that good?

Dehydration or poisacid.

You're repeating yourself here. Crocodile's fast enough to get out, or avoid getting caught in sand in the first place. He can dehydrate through sand. He can't fuse with sand, though. I doubt the seal will work in time.

That has yet to be determined.

Crocodile has trouble fighting pre gears luffy then he is spotted by fodders before attacking. He is not fast. You do not have to be fast to be under certain security as you can be the slowest man in the world but if you have the power to let's say blow up a city then you are considered dangerous. Being in level 6 does not immediately mean he has the speed of his fellow inmates. And he does not have to be fast in marineford with strong attacks and being a logia and all he did not have much trouble. Besides the only fights we saw of him was him getting his ass kicked by jozu. And relying on his logia powers to survive against doflamingo. Other than that he was just fighting fodder.

The reason the lines did not show for the other panels is that they were either zoomed out to show other characters and putting the lines there would of course **** up the panel. Where just showing crocodile himself and nothing else is more appropriate for the lines to be put to just show the readers he was not simply standing there.
In his fights with luffy he had the luxury to chit chat because he was arrogant enough to think he could not be hit. Against doflamingo the same thing was happening as he knew doflamingo could not hurt him easily and they were not even serious as they idly greeted each other. However when you are doing a SNEAK ATTACK it would make no sense to stop and talk as it defeats the whole purpose of sneaking up. He started talking when he thought for sure that he would strike whitebeard. He already lost to whitebeard and crocodile is not dumb why would he even stop for a second if he knew the risk he was taking. That is why he did not try to talk first against akainu cuz he knew it could get him killed. Face it fodder were able to spot crocodile it is even in the anime. They did not change anything. If the producers of the anime interpreted it like that than that is what happened. Crocodile is not as fast as he is made out to be.

Gaara has shown feats wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond anything crocodile has done it is like tug of war between a grown man and a baby. It will have virtually no effect.

So let me get this straight a huge glob of sand catches crocodile. He uses his hook to dissolve the sand that is surrounding his WHOLE BODY even though the sand will crush the other parts of his body while to hook which is in front of him is only destroying the sand in front of him and he would not even have the time to move his hook everywhere. It is like having a shield that when you have arrows coming from all directions it can only protect you in one area. And basically he is gonna dissolve sand that has tanked village wiping explosions with a acid that's best feat is dissolving rock? Yeah good luck. Then he is gonna touch non organic sand with no moisture in it and dehydrate it? Your point on gaara's sand armor is possible but it would NEVER work on sand which is already dry as it can be.

And crocodile dehydrating the ground again spread like an infection and had to pass through one layer of rock to dehydrate the other. It cannot dehydrate sand armor so it would not get him. For example it is like rubber coverine a piece of wood. Electricity can pass through objects and electrify it all over however it has to be able to travel entirely through it. the electricity could not get past the rubber to even remotly hurt the piece of wood. So imagine the dehydration ability being electricity the rubber being the sand armor and the wood being gaara. Get what is happening.

Gaara>Crocodile!

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Crocodile has trouble fighting pre gears luffy then he is spotted by fodders before attacking. He is not fast. You do not have to be fast to be under certain security as you can be the slowest man in the world but if you have the power to let's say blow up a city then you are considered dangerous. Being in level 6 does not immediately mean he has the speed of his fellow inmates. And he does not have to be fast in marineford with strong attacks and being a logia and all he did not have much trouble. Besides the only fights we saw of him was him getting his ass kicked by jozu. And relying on his logia powers to survive against doflamingo. Other than that he was just fighting fodder.

Pre-gears Luffy is still a bullet timer, an Crocodile defeated him twice. That's not exactly "trouble." Anyway,

http://i29.mangapanda.com/one-piece/548/one-piece-65631.jpg

Crocodile casually intercepts cannon fire.

The reason the lines did not show for the other panels is that they were either zoomed out to show other characters and putting the lines there would of course **** up the panel. Where just showing crocodile himself and nothing else is more appropriate for the lines to be put to just show the readers he was not simply standing there.
In his fights with luffy he had the luxury to chit chat because he was arrogant enough to think he could not be hit. Against doflamingo the same thing was happening as he knew doflamingo could not hurt him easily and they were not even serious as they idly greeted each other. However when you are doing a SNEAK ATTACK it would make no sense to stop and talk as it defeats the whole purpose of sneaking up. He started talking when he thought for sure that he would strike whitebeard. He already lost to whitebeard and crocodile is not dumb why would he even stop for a second if he knew the risk he was taking. That is why he did not try to talk first against akainu cuz he knew it could get him killed. Face it fodder were able to spot crocodile it is even in the anime. They did not change anything. If the producers of the anime interpreted it like that than that is what happened. Crocodile is not as fast as he is made out to be.

That sounds like a lot of speculation, and not a lot of fact. How can you say, and be absolutely sure, that 3 panels are not continuous, but happening at the same? How are you so sure that not having movement lines means Crocodile is moving anyway? Really, it sounds like you're making excuses to make Crocodile seem slow. Why? Just looking at the scan, Crocodile still hangs in the air for three panels before talking as he attacks.

Have you considered that it was not a sneak attack? It if was, why even bother talking to give yourself away? That's pretty much how most of Crocodiles fights go anyway, just talking before, during, and after a fight. Crocodile likes to be heard. That arrogance is well within his character, so I really don't see why it's "illogical" that Crocodile acts in character. As for the anime, they just changed the scene. Happens all the time. They decided to show Crocodile's movement of going to Whitebeard, making it pretty clear it wasn't a sneak attack even then. Or are you going to say that the anime interpreted Whitebeard losing half his face as just getting a shave, then that's what happened, too?

Gaara has shown feats wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond anything crocodile has done it is like tug of war between a grown man and a baby. It will have virtually no effect.

Nah, Crocodile's pretty good with town sized sandstorms and such. Gaara's just a bit more precise, and has a little larger volumes of sand.

So let me get this straight a huge glob of sand catches crocodile. He uses his hook to dissolve the sand that is surrounding his WHOLE BODY even though the sand will crush the other parts of his body while to hook which is in front of him is only destroying the sand in front of him and he would not even have the time to move his hook everywhere. It is like having a shield that when you have arrows coming from all directions it can only protect you in one area. And basically he is gonna dissolve sand that has tanked village wiping explosions with a acid that's best feat is dissolving rock? Yeah good luck. Then he is gonna touch non organic sand with no moisture in it and dehydrate it? Your point on gaara's sand armor is possible but it would NEVER work on sand which is already dry as it can be.

Hold on, you started off by assuming Crocodile gets caught. Then, Gaara's attack isn't all directions at once; it starts at one and the covers the others by going around from what I've seen. There's a hole for at least a small amount of time that Crocodile can escape through, or he could dissolve the sand in front of him to make another hole to go through. It's not like he can't sand form while Gaara is doing a jutsu, either, as it'd be pretty hard to control both at once, right?

And crocodile dehydrating the ground again spread like an infection and had to pass through one layer of rock to dehydrate the other. It cannot dehydrate sand armor so it would not get him. For example it is like rubber coverine a piece of wood. Electricity can pass through objects and electrify it all over however it has to be able to travel entirely through it. the electricity could not get past the rubber to even remotly hurt the piece of wood. So imagine the dehydration ability being electricity the rubber being the sand armor and the wood being gaara. Get what is happening.

Why can't it dehydrate through sand again? Rock is already dry, too; Crocodile has no problem going through it, and anything in contact with his sand is dehydrated, too. That analogy doesn't really work, though, since we've seen Crocodile dehydrate people using sand before. Gaara's touching the armor, so there is a source of water in the sand that Crocodile can get at.

Gaara>Crocodile!

Evidence > Claims (!)

Originally posted by The Scenario
Pre-gears Luffy is still a bullet timer, an Crocodile defeated him twice. That's not exactly "trouble." Anyway,

http://i29.mangapanda.com/one-piece/548/one-piece-65631.jpg

Crocodile casually intercepts cannon fire.

That sounds like a lot of speculation, and not a lot of fact. How can you say, and be absolutely sure, that 3 panels are not continuous, but happening at the same? How are you so sure that not having movement lines means Crocodile is moving anyway? Really, it sounds like you're making excuses to make Crocodile seem slow. Why? Just looking at the scan, Crocodile still hangs in the air for three panels before talking as he attacks.

Have you considered that it was not a sneak attack? It if was, why even bother talking to give yourself away? That's pretty much how most of Crocodiles fights go anyway, just talking before, during, and after a fight. Crocodile likes to be heard. That arrogance is well within his character, so I really don't see why it's "illogical" that Crocodile acts in character. As for the anime, they just changed the scene. Happens all the time. They decided to show Crocodile's movement of going to Whitebeard, making it pretty clear it wasn't a sneak attack even then. Or are you going to say that the anime interpreted Whitebeard losing half his face as just getting a shave, then that's what happened, too?

Nah, Crocodile's pretty good with town sized sandstorms and such. Gaara's just a bit more precise, and has a little larger volumes of sand.

Hold on, you started off by assuming Crocodile gets caught. Then, Gaara's attack isn't all directions at once; it starts at one and the covers the others by going around from what I've seen. There's a hole for at least a small amount of time that Crocodile can escape through, or he could dissolve the sand in front of him to make another hole to go through. It's not like he can't sand form while Gaara is doing a jutsu, either, as it'd be pretty hard to control both at once, right?

Why can't it dehydrate through sand again? Rock is already dry, too; Crocodile has no problem going through it, and anything in contact with his sand is dehydrated, too. That analogy doesn't really work, though, since we've seen Crocodile dehydrate people using sand before. Gaara's touching the armor, so there is a source of water in the sand that Crocodile can get at.

Evidence > Claims (!)

Crcodile did not win those two fights with using speed but relying heavily on his intangibility.

That does not matter as gaara sand was able to block enton kagutsuchi aka blaze release which is a slow downed version of amaterasu. That is easily better than cannonballs.

There is no point of me repeating myself since you clearly will not but it. Despite the fact that the different panels are showing other people's reaction to his attack at the same time it is about to happen. Despite the fact the animators themselves interpreted this as constant movement. Despite the fact that pausing in mid attack defeats his purpose. He was talking in and moving at the same time and the reason he was talking is because he was confident that he nailed whitebeard and that revealing his presence would not change anything.Crocodile is clearly not that fast as you will not admit it. No point in arguing cuz you clearly won't take it.

His sandstorm do not start of with the power to destroy sand but gradually over time pick up strength. However he unfortunately does not have the luxury of time for that.
"Little larger volumes"
Crocodile
http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/One-Piece/178/14
Gaara
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/546/8
Again it is like tug of war between an adult and baby.

Have you ever heard of the sand coffin? Or can You just imagine a wall of sand closing in from all directions with no way out. And we do not know if crocodile's acid can corrode gaara's sand which has taken much worse. The acid's biggest feat is melting rock that won't be enough.

But crcodile's powers are implying that the most dehydrated form of anything is sand so what happens when you try to dehydrate sand NOTHING ass it can't get any more moisture less. Can u show me a scan where crocodile has dehydrated something under another object without dehydrating the the object on top?

If Evidence>Claims then Gaara>Crocodile!

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Crcodile did not win those two fights with using speed but relying heavily on his intangibility.

He still kept up with Luffy, who had trouble dodging his attacks. That is still bullet timing speed at least, not to mention the cannonballs.

That does not matter as gaara sand was able to block enton kagutsuchi aka blaze release which is a slow downed version of amaterasu. That is easily better than cannonballs.

You're gonna need speed feats for that one. How do you know it's faster than a cannonball?

There is no point of me repeating myself since you clearly will not but it. Despite the fact that the different panels are showing other people's reaction to his attack at the same time it is about to happen. Despite the fact the animators themselves interpreted this as constant movement. Despite the fact that pausing in mid attack defeats his purpose. He was talking in and moving at the same time and the reason he was talking is because he was confident that he nailed whitebeard and that revealing his presence would not change anything.Crocodile is clearly not that fast as you will not admit it. No point in arguing cuz you clearly won't take it.

I just can't see how you're so sure of your interpretation when it isn't what we actually see. Despite the fact that there's no indication that the other panels were happening at the same. Despite the fact that the animators change minor details all the time. Despite the fact that talking would defeat the purpose even if he didn't stop. Crocodile is arrogant and it's part of his character to do, which is why I don't think he was even trying to be fast there. You'd be better off picking an event where Crocodile was actually trying to move quickly.

His sandstorm do not start of with the power to destroy sand but gradually over time pick up strength. However he unfortunately does not have the luxury of time for that.
"Little larger volumes"
Crocodile
http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/One-Piece/178/14
Gaara
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/546/8
Again it is like tug of war between an adult and baby.

Not really, I mean:

http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/One-Piece/178/15

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/546/11

It's not too difficult to see they're pretty similar. Crocodile's at least has the luxury or being larger than a city (note that Rainbase isn't even visible from Vivi's point of view, in a desert with 300 meter sand dunes) while Gaara's isn't a great deal larger than those rock formations. Plus, with the gold dust stopping the sand we have a precedent for it.

Have you ever heard of the sand coffin? Or can You just imagine a wall of sand closing in from all directions with no way out. And we do not know if crocodile's acid can corrode gaara's sand which has taken much worse. The acid's biggest feat is melting rock that won't be enough.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/556/2
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/556/12

Gaara seems to have some real trouble with acid, though. Then, it doesn't appear to be all directions at once. Yeah, it eventually gets to all directions, but you can pretty clearly see multiple waves, with spaces between them. A sand form Crocodile could easily slip through those spaces, and even human form can jump out through an acid hole.

But crcodile's powers are implying that the most dehydrated form of anything is sand so what happens when you try to dehydrate sand NOTHING ass it can't get any more moisture less. Can u show me a scan where crocodile has dehydrated something under another object without dehydrating the the object on top?

Why would he do that? Hmm, are you familiar with the concept of diffusion? If the sand is touching Gaara (gaining some measure of moisture from his skin, whether it be sweat or similar), and Crocodile tries to drain moisture from the sand, the sand will take more moisture from Gaara. That's what I'm saying, and that's how the ability works. Stuff touching the ground, such as grass, trees, and Luffy's sandals, gets its moisture taken because Crocodile is taking moisture from it, and that forces it to take moisture from anything in contact with it. .

If Evidence>Claims then Gaara>Crocodile!

So far, I'm not really seeing it.

Originally posted by The Scenario
He still kept up with Luffy, who had trouble dodging his attacks. That is still bullet timing speed at least, not to mention the cannonballs.

You're gonna need speed feats for that one. How do you know it's faster than a cannonball?

I just can't see how you're so sure of your interpretation when it isn't what we actually see. Despite the fact that there's no indication that the other panels were happening at the same. Despite the fact that the animators change minor details all the time. Despite the fact that talking would defeat the purpose even if he didn't stop. Crocodile is arrogant and it's part of his character to do, which is why I don't think he was even trying to be fast there. You'd be better off picking an event where Crocodile was actually trying to move quickly.

Not really, I mean:

http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/One-Piece/178/15

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/546/11

It's not too difficult to see they're pretty similar. Crocodile's at least has the luxury or being larger than a city (note that Rainbase isn't even visible from Vivi's point of view, in a desert with 300 meter sand dunes) while Gaara's isn't a great deal larger than those rock formations. Plus, with the gold dust stopping the sand we have a precedent for it.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/556/2
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/556/12

Gaara seems to have some real trouble with acid, though. Then, it doesn't appear to be all directions at once. Yeah, it eventually gets to all directions, but you can pretty clearly see multiple waves, with spaces between them. A sand form Crocodile could easily slip through those spaces, and even human form can jump out through an acid hole.

Why would he do that? Hmm, are you familiar with the concept of diffusion? If the sand is touching Gaara (gaining some measure of moisture from his skin, whether it be sweat or similar), and Crocodile tries to drain moisture from the sand, the sand will take more moisture from Gaara. That's what I'm saying, and that's how the ability works. Stuff touching the ground, such as grass, trees, and Luffy's sandals, gets its moisture taken because Crocodile is taking moisture from it, and that forces it to take moisture from anything in contact with it. .

So far, I'm not really seeing it.

Yet when luffy finally in their final battle was able to hit him he was able to out speed him. Blaze release is manipulating the same flames as amaterasu which is way faster than any bullet or cannon ball and he was able to react to the raikage's speed(albeit in mid air) and was able to cross vast stretch of air in a instant to destroy deidara arm. And don't even make me pull out gaara's sand reaction feats or his own.

It is what we see you have no proof that the other panels weren't happening at the same time. Crocodile was just not that fast and the moment he leaned in for the attack EVERYONE noticed him. He did not stop in mid air he was still moving when he was talking and he was arrogant enough to think that whitebeard could not dodge at that range. THAT is why he was talking he was sure it was over for whitebeard. So you don't think he was trying to be fast then why even bother attacking whitebeard. He tried and failed he was spotted by fodder that is it. You will never agree or admit it. This is not my interpretation this is what happened.

Crocodile's twister is TALL but not strong or wide. It is thin and weak. It not only is not nearly controlling the same amount of sand but it the sand tsunami and twister went up against each other the twister would get smothered. It needs time to gain enough power to hurt a town which it doesn't have. The rocks near the kages look bigger because they are closer and the tsunami is farther therefore at a smaller angle. Also the tsunami is folding downwards to hit the kages. A 300M sand dun is considered a rolling plain in the U.S so that is not a big deal.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/3
http://www.mangareader.net/93-253-12/naruto/chapter-248.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-254-13/naruto/chapter-249.html
Gaara has even more amazing feats trust me it is tug of war between a adult and baby.

OIL is not an acid first of all it is a neutral chemical and do not compare the mizukage's oil to crocodile's acid. They both work in different ways as oil is like water is to crocodile. However other liquids do not affect gaara so acid most definitely won't do shit especially when it's biggest feat is melting rock. And the mizukage's oil unlike the acid was in large amounts and was able to seep through because it is the sand's natural weakness. The acid won't even make it through any layer and it is like shielding yourself from a wave of arrows. Gaara's sand has great reaction feats and could easily catch him. Your argument earlier about him turning human then using acid is clearly gone because the moment the sand touches him gaara can crush his limbs and his hook can't be everywhere at once. If he goes sand than gaara will control him to stay in one place or fuse his chakra rich sand in crocodile to control him that way. Again you fully did not comment on him using sand coffin which would be an easier alternative.

You totally ignored or did not understand the point I was making you said he could dehydrate his way out of a pyramid of sand which is false as the sand has no liquid and cannot be turned into sand. So you can just scratch out the idea he could dehydrate or use acid to get out of the pyramid. In regards to the armor IF what you are implying is true then it is a slow process and harder than usually draining someone but fully touching them. Gaara's defense can easily get crocodile if he has to stand there and try to dehydrate gaara not that this scenario would happen anyway as...
A)He will never get past gaara's defense he has neither the firepower or speed
B)Will be controlled at the beginning of the fight and sealed

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Yet when luffy finally in their final battle was able to hit him he was able to out speed him. Blaze release is manipulating the same flames as amaterasu which is way faster than any bullet or cannon ball and he was able to react to the raikage's speed(albeit in mid air) and was able to cross vast stretch of air in a instant to destroy deidara arm. And don't even make me pull out gaara's sand reaction feats or his own.

Not really, they were pretty even for a while, and it isn't like that means Crocodile is slow. He still competes with Mihawk and intercepts cannonballs, which so far is faster than what Gaara has shown. Why aren't you using those speed feats, then? I'll ask for them, they've got to be better than the bone bullets.

It is what we see you have no proof that the other panels weren't happening at the same time. Crocodile was just not that fast and the moment he leaned in for the attack EVERYONE noticed him. He did not stop in mid air he was still moving when he was talking and he was arrogant enough to think that whitebeard could not dodge at that range. THAT is why he was talking he was sure it was over for whitebeard. So you don't think he was trying to be fast then why even bother attacking whitebeard. He tried and failed he was spotted by fodder that is it. You will never agree or admit it. This is not my interpretation this is what happened.

"...no proof the other panels weren't..."

You can stop right there, since you're trying to force people to prove a negative again. I've told you, proving negatives isn't possible. You're the one claiming the positive (all are at the same time,) so you are the one that must prove it. The evidence actually shows in favor of Crocodile stopping to talk, and not trying to be particularly fast. Yeah, he was seen by fodder. So what? Doesn't mean he's slow, it just means he wasn't moving very fast at that point. See, we both agree Crocodile wasn't moving quickly while attacking Whitebeard, but you seem to be trying to imply that Crocodile was moving at maximum speed. The manga implies otherwise, as Crocodile has moved much faster than this before and after. Why are you so focused on this moment as if it completely defines Crocodile's speed? It really doesn't.

Crocodile's twister is TALL but not strong or wide. It is thin and weak. It not only is not nearly controlling the same amount of sand but it the sand tsunami and twister went up against each other the twister would get smothered. It needs time to gain enough power to hurt a town which it doesn't have. The rocks near the kages look bigger because they are closer and the tsunami is farther therefore at a smaller angle. Also the tsunami is folding downwards to hit the kages. A 300M sand dun is considered a rolling plain in the U.S so that is not a big deal.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/3
http://www.mangareader.net/93-253-12/naruto/chapter-248.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-254-13/naruto/chapter-249.html
Gaara has even more amazing feats trust me it is tug of war between a adult and baby.

Thin and weak? Nah, thin I'll give you (if several meters is thin,) but that thing's bigger than a town and has a whole lot of sand in it. Assuming that some of the dunes in the shot show are 300 meters, that twister could be as many as 900. Probably less, but hey, that's scaling for you. In any case, Crocodile uses force a bit differently from Gaara. He uses wind, too, and blows sand in a twister motion, while Gaara tends to throw it all in one direction. If anything, it might disrupt of deflect Gaara's workings, even they are more pure sand. So yeah, I'd say it's closer to "bodybuilder/regular guy" but it'd definitely mess up Gaara's jutsu and it'd just get stronger with time.

OIL is not an acid first of all it is a neutral chemical and do not compare the mizukage's oil to crocodile's acid. They both work in different ways as oil is like water is to crocodile. However other liquids do not affect gaara so acid most definitely won't do shit especially when it's biggest feat is melting rock. And the mizukage's oil unlike the acid was in large amounts and was able to seep through because it is the sand's natural weakness. The acid won't even make it through any layer and it is like shielding yourself from a wave of arrows. Gaara's sand has great reaction feats and could easily catch him. Your argument earlier about him turning human then using acid is clearly gone because the moment the sand touches him gaara can crush his limbs and his hook can't be everywhere at once. If he goes sand than gaara will control him to stay in one place or fuse his chakra rich sand in crocodile to control him that way. Again you fully did not comment on him using sand coffin which would be an easier alternative.

Why can't I? Both seem to dissolve things pretty well, and the bit where it seeps into sand would be true for both. I don't why something like acid that can seep in and melt sand wouldn't be extremely useful against Gaara. You are aware that Crocodile can selectively turn parts of his body to sand while otherwise staying human, right? Trying to crush his limbs would do nothing, as Crocodile instinctively reverts to sand and can easily change back before Gaara can even try to exert control. I figured that Imperiial Desert Funeral was a powered up Sand Coffin, is that not right?

You totally ignored or did not understand the point I was making you said he could dehydrate his way out of a pyramid of sand which is false as the sand has no liquid and cannot be turned into sand. So you can just scratch out the idea he could dehydrate or use acid to get out of the pyramid. In regards to the armor IF what you are implying is true then it is a slow process and harder than usually draining someone but fully touching them. Gaara's defense can easily get crocodile if he has to stand there and try to dehydrate gaara

Huh? I never said anything about Crocodile trying to dehydrate the pyramid, where did that come from? Perhaps you misunderstood when I said Crocodile would turn to sand and escape, as I meant Crocodile could turn himself into sand and go through the holes left in the jutsu before it fully forms. I'm also talking about Crocodile dehydrating Gaara through the armor, which we have seen work just as quickly on trees, so it would definitely be a win if Crocodile grabbed Gaara.

not that this scenario would happen anyway as...
A)He will never get past gaara's defense he has neither the firepower or speed
B)Will be controlled at the beginning of the fight and sealed

Hee hee, scenario. Anyway, the cannonball or Mihawk feat do imply Crocodile is fast enough to hit Gaara, and he does have some pretty strong attacks plus poisacid. Then, you haven't even proven that Gaara can control Crocodile, much less at the same time as he uses another jutsu.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not really, they were pretty even for a while, and it isn't like that means Crocodile is slow. He still competes with Mihawk and intercepts cannonballs, which so far is faster than what Gaara has shown. Why aren't you using those speed feats, then? I'll ask for them, they've got to be better than the bone bullets.

"...no proof the other panels weren't..."

You can stop right there, since you're trying to force people to prove a negative again. I've told you, proving negatives isn't possible. You're the one claiming the positive (all are at the same time,) so you are the one that must prove it. The evidence actually shows in favor of Crocodile stopping to talk, and not trying to be particularly fast. Yeah, he was seen by fodder. So what? Doesn't mean he's slow, it just means he wasn't moving very fast at that point. See, we both agree Crocodile wasn't moving quickly while attacking Whitebeard, but you seem to be trying to imply that Crocodile was moving at maximum speed. The manga implies otherwise, as Crocodile has moved much faster than this before and after. Why are you so focused on this moment as if it completely defines Crocodile's speed? It really doesn't.

Thin and weak? Nah, thin I'll give you (if several meters is thin,) but that thing's bigger than a town and has a whole lot of sand in it. Assuming that some of the dunes in the shot show are 300 meters, that twister could be as many as 900. Probably less, but hey, that's scaling for you. In any case, Crocodile uses force a bit differently from Gaara. He uses wind, too, and blows sand in a twister motion, while Gaara tends to throw it all in one direction. If anything, it might disrupt of deflect Gaara's workings, even they are more pure sand. So yeah, I'd say it's closer to "bodybuilder/regular guy" but it'd definitely mess up Gaara's jutsu and it'd just get stronger with time.

Why can't I? Both seem to dissolve things pretty well, and the bit where it seeps into sand would be true for both. I don't why something like acid that can seep in and melt sand wouldn't be extremely useful against Gaara. You are aware that Crocodile can selectively turn parts of his body to sand while otherwise staying human, right? Trying to crush his limbs would do nothing, as Crocodile instinctively reverts to sand and can easily change back before Gaara can even try to exert control. I figured that Imperiial Desert Funeral was a powered up Sand Coffin, is that not right?

Huh? I never said anything about Crocodile trying to dehydrate the pyramid, where did that come from? Perhaps you misunderstood when I said Crocodile would turn to sand and escape, as I meant Crocodile could turn himself into sand and go through the holes left in the jutsu before it fully forms. I'm also talking about Crocodile dehydrating Gaara through the armor, which we have seen work just as quickly on trees, so it would definitely be a win if Crocodile grabbed Gaara.

Hee hee, scenario. Anyway, the cannonball or Mihawk feat do imply Crocodile is fast enough to hit Gaara, and he does have some pretty strong attacks plus poisacid. Then, you haven't even proven that Gaara can control Crocodile, much less at the same time as he uses another jutsu.

Gaara's sand feats
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/249/14
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/249/15
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/3
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/464/12
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/557/10
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/557/11
Gaara him selves speed feat(there aren't many he is a stationary fighter)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-40-12/naruto/chapter-35.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-40-13/naruto/chapter-35.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-40-14/naruto/chapter-35.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-40-15/naruto/chapter-35.html

http://www.mangareader.net/93-88-13/naruto/chapter-83.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-88-17/naruto/chapter-83.html

Im not saying crocodile is super slow it is just that even with his speed fodder were able to see him at the last moment anyone with a fast instantaneous defense like gaara can stop him. You will never agree as you will always say the panels are not in the same time frame and that the animators changed stuff with both being false replies on your part. And I will keep saying otherwise. As I said in my last two replies this section of our debate is hopeless.

The thing with crocodile's twister is that it needs time to grow to enough power to destroy a town like it was gonna destroy Yuba which by the way was a pretty beat up town. It does not have that kinda power at the beginning. And as you said his twister is a mixture of sand and win so you can say the entire twisters volume(which by the way it not much considering how thin it is) is the same volume of sand he can lift in a sand lifting contest lets say. But that lends even more credibility to the idea that the amount of sand gaara can manipulate is far beyond crocodile's level.

Okay the oil does not dissolve the sand it makes it adhere which will make it crumble. However crocodile's acid dissolves it see the difference. However as I keep pointing out we do not know if his acid is acidic enough to destroy gaara's sand which is much more durable than anything that crocodile's acid destroyed. So crocodile is instinctively changing back to sand and still has sand clamming onto his sandy body. Okay I do not see how that helps him as he will just be encased and caught and going human would change nothing. The sand coffin was brought up because it is more faster and can catch crododile by surprise and seal him quicker before he starts "melting" the sand.

No I did not mix it up it was you or another debater that said that he can dehydrate his way out of the pyramid which is impossible. If you did not say that then whatever. But I fully got your hole thing before which is why I brought up the sand coffin in the first place which is much more faster. And the armor taking liquid from gaara is slim but doesn't matter as he would not be in that situation.

Gaara sand his fast enough to block his attempts as I have shown in some new scans^. We have pretty much come to the conclusion that gaara's control far eclipses anything that crocodile has caught which means he can control him. Gaara can use both his mind and arm movements to control sand he could probably focus on crocodile wile using his sand to restrain him. Or one hand focusing on crocodile while the other does a binding. Or he can use his automatic defense sealing tech which will require much less work.

Originally posted by Rikudo sennin
Im not saying crocodile is super slow it is just that even with his speed fodder were able to see him at the last moment anyone with a fast instantaneous defense like gaara can stop him. You will never agree as you will always say the panels are not in the same time frame and that the animators changed stuff with both being false replies on your part. And I will keep saying otherwise. As I said in my last two replies this section of our debate is hopeless.

Well, Marineford fodder can tag Luffy, who specifically noted that "everyone is so strong!" Plus, I don't think Crocodile was even attempting to move quickly, which the manga supports. However, "false replies"? Are you calling me a liar? What indication is there that the panels happen at the same time? Seriously, I would like to know how you know know this as an absolute fact; that time stopped just to give a reaction shot of people talking. Then, please understand that the anime does change things all the time. In the manga, Whitebeard lost half his face. In the anime, his mustache got singed and he got a second hole in his chest. Why would you take the anime over the manga in this case?

I would legitimately like answers to these questions.

The thing with crocodile's twister is that it needs time to grow to enough power to destroy a town like it was gonna destroy Yuba which by the way was a pretty beat up town. It does not have that kinda power at the beginning. And as you said his twister is a mixture of sand and win so you can say the entire twisters volume(which by the way it not much considering how thin it is) is the same volume of sand he can lift in a sand lifting contest lets say. But that lends even more credibility to the idea that the amount of sand gaara can manipulate is far beyond crocodile's level.

Yuba was beat up because Crocodile was sending sandstorms at it whenever he got bored, though. Crocodile pretty routinely shrouded towns in sand, at one point dehydrating a bunch of pirates with just a sandstorm though that is neither here nor there. Yeah, I never denied that Gaara controls more sand than Crocodile does. Crocodile just has a lot of force and wind, enough to prevent Luffy from getting close and generally tossing things around. He's not going to be taking control of Gaara's sand, but he can disrupt it.

Okay the oil does not dissolve the sand it makes it adhere which will make it crumble. However crocodile's acid dissolves it see the difference. However as I keep pointing out we do not know if his acid is acidic enough to destroy gaara's sand which is much more durable than anything that crocodile's acid destroyed. So crocodile is instinctively changing back to sand and still has sand clamming onto his sandy body. Okay I do not see how that helps him as he will just be encased and caught and going human would change nothing. The sand coffin was brought up because it is more faster and can catch crododile by surprise and seal him quicker before he starts "melting" the sand.

Even though the oil-water is said on panel to "seep in and destroy it"? Pretty clear it's destroying Gaara's sand, which has a lot of trouble with it. I don't see why Crocodile hitting Gaara with his hook wouldn't do anything. As for sand coffin, Crocodile can just slip through it in sand form. Both leave holes and he'll hardly be trapped since he's too fast in either form.

No I did not mix it up it was you or another debater that said that he can dehydrate his way out of the pyramid which is impossible. If you did not say that then whatever. But I fully got your hole thing before which is why I brought up the sand coffin in the first place which is much more faster. And the armor taking liquid from gaara is slim but doesn't matter as he would not be in that situation.

Perhaps they just said he would loosen the sand, or make it less dense. Surely Gaara's sand isn't nearly as dry as Crocodile's given moisture in the air and such. Crocodile has drained people using sand before, there's nothing slim about it. Gaara's getting dehydrated.

Gaara sand his fast enough to block his attempts as I have shown in some new scans^. We have pretty much come to the conclusion that gaara's control far eclipses anything that crocodile has caught which means he can control him. Gaara can use both his mind and arm movements to control sand he could probably focus on crocodile wile using his sand to restrain him. Or one hand focusing on crocodile while the other does a binding. Or he can use his automatic defense sealing tech which will require much less work.

Mihawk feat disagrees, though. That might beat the cannonball one, though. Gaara does have better control, but Crocodile is far from helpless against him. How many jutsu's has Gaara held at one time before?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, Marineford fodder can tag Luffy, who specifically noted that "everyone is so strong!" Plus, I don't think Crocodile was even attempting to move quickly, which the manga supports. However, "false replies"? Are you calling me a liar? What indication is there that the panels happen at the same time? Seriously, I would like to know how you know know this as an absolute fact; that time stopped just to give a reaction shot of people talking. Then, please understand that the anime does change things all the time. In the manga, Whitebeard lost half his face. In the anime, his mustache got singed and he got a second hole in his chest. Why would you take the anime over the manga in this case?

I would legitimately like answers to these questions.

Yuba was beat up because Crocodile was sending sandstorms at it whenever he got bored, though. Crocodile pretty routinely shrouded towns in sand, at one point dehydrating a bunch of pirates with just a sandstorm though that is neither here nor there. Yeah, I never denied that Gaara controls more sand than Crocodile does. Crocodile just has a lot of force and wind, enough to prevent Luffy from getting close and generally tossing things around. He's not going to be taking control of Gaara's sand, but he can disrupt it.

Even though the oil-water is said on panel to "seep in and destroy it"? Pretty clear it's destroying Gaara's sand, which has a lot of trouble with it. I don't see why Crocodile hitting Gaara with his hook wouldn't do anything. As for sand coffin, Crocodile can just slip through it in sand form. Both leave holes and he'll hardly be trapped since he's too fast in either form.

Perhaps they just said he would loosen the sand, or make it less dense. Surely Gaara's sand isn't nearly as dry as Crocodile's given moisture in the air and such. Crocodile has drained people using sand before, there's nothing slim about it. Gaara's getting dehydrated.

Mihawk feat disagrees, though. That might beat the cannonball one, though. Gaara does have better control, but Crocodile is far from helpless against him. How many jutsu's has Gaara held at one time before?

Oh man what did I say why bother debating this if we are never gonna agree. THE FACT is crocodile tried to attack whitebeard and fodder noticed at the last moment while he was still moving in for the finishing blow. He was also talking when he thought his hit would for sure connect but luffy stopped him. There was no evidence he was not trying as why bother attack whitebeard in the first place and he only has the balls to talk when he thought for sure that he would kill him. That is it he did not stop in mid air to start throwing around words. NOT THAT IT MATTERS since gaara's sand has shown impressive speed feats as well as his own. Oh and those marine fodder are not special as luffy was just getting overwhelmed by the sheer number going after him and one marine who just so happened to not look or carry the weapons of a normal marine fodder making it seem he may be higher took advantage of the overwhelmed luffy and got a little strike in.

Well that is actually even sadder as then his twisters even at full power can't even destroy a town and it takes multiple twisters over time just to do that. So now his strongest attack just looks weak. Well I see gaara with a huge difference control considering his biggest feat with sand was not even all sand and can therefore easily man handle him.

Oh man the poison/acid does not cause ADHESION. It causes CORROSION. Only the oil has shown the ability to make his sand adhere and THEN continue on to seep in and destroy the rest of his sand. Not even normal water could do that where in comparison adhesion would happen to crocodile if he was touched by water. Then there is the fact that his poison/acid may not even have the power to destroy gaara's sand as it's only feats include melting rock which by the way is not as durable as gaara's sand.

Well im still skeptical cause im not exactly sure what that whole thing meant but it would not matter as crocodile will get controlled and if he by luck gets close to gaara his extremely fast and durable sand will stop crocodile.

Well a bunch of marine fodder disagree and ALL of gaara's sand feats and his shunshin no jutsu speed disagrees as well.