Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Avengers knowledge of the Phoenix Force is more than adequate, especially since none of them were blinded by the naive and completely baseless hope that the Phoenix would usher in a Mutant Renaissance. The also have Wanda's vision of the Phoenix Force killing the Avengers. Bishop coming from the future to stop Hope from doing something that will devastate the earth. Plus basic knowledge of the Phoenix Force. Scott was completely misguided from day one. He couldn't divorce his knowledge of the Phoenix with his own personal goals.Hope's been with the X-Men for a long time and she received no such training. Am I supposed to believe that Cyclops really didn't believe she was the host of the Phoenix Force prior to AvX issue zero? Because Wolverine did. He sussed it out almost instantly, that was the whole reason he was so cold to her, trying not to get attached in case she went Dark Phoenix and he had to kill her. Cyclops was sitting on his ass post Schism and twiddling his fingers. If Iron Man hadn't interfered the Phoenix would have entered Hope only days after AvX 1, she wouldn't have and adequate time to prepare and everyone would be in a much worse situation then they are in now. Every single one of the Phoenix Five was in a better place to control the Phoenix then a hormonal teenager... and they were all corrupted with a fraction of the Phoenix's full power. Scott pinning his hope on the Phoenix and Hope was, a colossal mistake. He should have aligned with Cap day one.
Yeah the Kun'Lun stuff was stupider then the rest of event... which is pretty stupid.
Wanda has some experience with controlling world altering powers, as well hands on results with the consequences that happen when you can't control those powers and they control you. Rachel and Wanda are two people that should have been counseling Hope on this since day one.
Taking children and putting them in an maximum security prison without a trial is still fascism...
Again , Scott intended to train her , in both body and mind , in order to prepare her for the coming of the Phoenix . Where did I say that Scott didn't believe that she was going to be the Phoenix-host ? The Phoenix hadn't arrived there yet , so they still had time to prep her for it , a chance which was snatched from them by the Avengers . You are going overboard with this "Phoenix was coming to burn the world" claim , when as zop showed previously , it has only ever come close to doing so when an evil outside agency(like the Hellfire Club) interfered with it w/o knowing what kind of forces they were tampering with .
Nope , with the exception of Emma(who had already tasted the PF's power once) and possibly Magik(because of her experiences in Limbo/hell probably toughening her up for this sort of thing) , none of them were prepared for the power they received . In fact , giving Colossus the power , on top of Cyttorak's "blessing"(about which he was already extremely flustered) , was enough to make him a ticking bomb/loose cannon imo , which wouldn't have taken long to go off .
Frankly speaking , the Avengers invading Utopia to kidnap Hope in order to supposedly prep her for what was coming was a completely senseless plan as the X-Men(at that point) intended to do something similar . In fact here Hope(before she lost reason) herself is surprised why Cap has come to get her :
http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/80/4f31cf1c869d1/detail.jpg
What Wanda did though is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR.....FAR(ad infinitum) worse than what Hope could theoretically do . Rachel supposedly threatened to destroy all existence , you say ? Well , Wanda tore apart the omniverse itself , apart from the mutant genocides/depowering which took place across all those multiple realities . She would be the worst role model to be counselling Hope in this instance , imo .
Those children were more or less Eldritch Abominations , and freaking Emma was justified in what she asked Scott to do in that instance , let alone Scott himself(and he still ended up looking more reasonable and in-control than the rest of his P5-peers) . But even if you do look at this as an atrocity(along with the many others the P5 supposedly committed in AVX and tie-ins) , then as I said before , all the blame for this can be lain squarely on Tony's shoulders .
Originally posted by Sundipped
Anyway if this is revealed, then Mr. Master will have to no doubt acknowledge it. Wish I could see the look on his face afterwards. 😈
TBH , they'll both be doing a bit of conceding that day .
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It still wasn't anywhere close to the X-Men's . And Wanda is the person who wiped out the mutant race in the first place , so she's a bad ballpark to use here .Again , Scott intended to train her , in both body and mind , in order to prepare her for the coming of the Phoenix . Where did I say that Scott didn't believe that she was going to be the Phoenix-host ? The Phoenix hadn't arrived there yet , so they still had time to prep her for it , a chance which was snatched from them by the Avengers . You are going overboard with this "Phoenix was coming to burn the world" claim , when as zop showed previously , it has only ever come close to doing so when an evil outside agency(like the Hellfire Club) interfered with it w/o knowing what kind of forces they were tampering with .
Nope , with the exception of Emma(who had already tasted the PF's power once) and possibly Magik(because of her experiences in Limbo/hell probably toughening her up for this sort of thing) , none of them were prepared for the power they received . In fact , giving Colossus the power , on top of Cyttorak's "blessing"(about which he was already extremely flustered) , was enough to make him a ticking bomb/loose cannon imo , which wouldn't have taken long to go off .
Frankly speaking , the Avengers invading Utopia to kidnap Hope in order to supposedly prep her for what was coming was a completely senseless plan as the X-Men(at that point) intended to do something similar . In fact here Hope(before she lost reason) herself is surprised why Cap has come to get her :
http://x.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/9/80/4f31cf1c869d1/detail.jpgWhat Wanda did though is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR.....FAR(ad infinitum) worse than what Hope could theoretically do . Rachel supposedly threatened to destroy all existence , you say ? Well , Wanda tore apart the omniverse itself , apart from the mutant genocides/depowering which took place across all those multiple realities . She would be the worst role model to be counselling Hope in this instance , imo .
Those children were more or less Eldritch Abominations , and freaking Emma was justified in what she asked Scott to do in that instance , let alone Scott himself(and he still ended up looking more reasonable and in-control than the rest of his P5-peers) . But even if you do look at this as an atrocity(along with the many others the P5 supposedly committed in AVX and tie-ins) , then as I said before , all the blame for this can be lain squarely on Tony's shoulders .
The Avengers had just as much knowledge of the Phoenix as the X-Men do, as they had Wolverine and Beast advising them. Cyclops' had was so far up his ass with his fixation on restoring the Mutant populace he couldn't see the forest through the trees. He was unable to make an impartial decision based on the information he had, if he could have... the event would have played out much differently. Also, Wanda is fine now, her visions of the PF killing the Avengers should be discarded off hand why exactly? It's not at though she has an anti mutant agenda, she is a mutant...
Two days worth of training? Yeah... I'm sure that would have been successful. Surely Scott suspected that there was a strong possibility that Hope was the next host of the Phoenix Force, same as Wolverine... but he took no precautions, and made no effort to prepare her until it was absolutely certain, at which point it was too late.
I never said they were prepared, I said they were better prepared than Hope... which is true. Every single P5 host is an experienced super hero with decades of experience and a ton of will power, each of them had more preparation to host the Phoenix Force through there collective life experience than Hope did... and all five of them went off their rocker with only a small fraction the host power.
Jean's gone Dark Phoenix half a dozen times. The Hellfire Club was only loosely responsible for one such outburst, and Jean is the most completely host of PF, with the highest degree of control. Every time someone has been in possession of the complete power of the Phoenix Force... they have eventually gone crazy with power and snapped. Every time. Scott's crazy Phoenix Cult beliefs are completely insane and unfounded.
Cap came to talk with Cyclops, but Wolverine and Beast had already told him that Scott would not see reason, so he brought the Avengers with him in case things escalated.
Potentially destroying the Multiverse is much worse than turning off the X-Gene, by several orders of magnitude.
The fact that five adult experience superheroes were unable to wield a fraction of the Phoenix Force's power with being corrupted should give you a pretty clear understanding of what would have taken place if an inexperienced hormonal teenager like Hope became the host in the first place. Tony's interference probably saved all their lives. Nothing in the entire history of the X-Men and their dealings with the Phoenix Force should have suggest to Cyclops that the PF was there to solve all their problems. Every time the PF shows up the earth / universe / multiverse almost gets destroyed and the X-Men have to step in at the last moment and save the day.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Avengers had just as much knowledge of the Phoenix as the X-Men do, as they had Wolverine and Beast advising them. Cyclops' had was so far up his ass with his fixation on restoring the Mutant populace he couldn't see the forest through the trees. He was unable to make an impartial decision based on the information he had, if he could have... the event would have played out much differently. Also, Wanda is fine now, her visions of the PF killing the Avengers should be discarded off hand why exactly? It's not at though she has an anti mutant agenda, she is a mutant...Two days worth of training? Yeah... I'm sure that would have been successful. Surely Scott suspected that there was a strong possibility that Hope was the next host of the Phoenix Force, same as Wolverine... but he took no precautions, and made no effort to prepare her until it was absolutely certain, at which point it was too late.
I never said they were prepared, I said they were better prepared than Hope... which is true. Every single P5 host is an experienced super hero with decades of experience and a ton of will power, each of them had more preparation to host the Phoenix Force through there collective life experience than Hope did... and all five of them went off their rocker with only a small fraction the host power.
Jean's gone Dark Phoenix half a dozen times. The Hellfire Club was only loosely responsible for one such outburst, and Jean is the most completely host of PF, with the highest degree of control. Every time someone has been in possession of the complete power of the Phoenix Force... they have eventually gone crazy with power and snapped. Every time. Scott's crazy Phoenix Cult beliefs are completely insane and unfounded.
Cap came to talk with Cyclops, but Wolverine and Beast had already told him that Scott would not see reason, so he brought the Avengers with him in case things escalated.
Potentially destroying the Multiverse is much worse than turning off the X-Gene, by several orders of magnitude.
The fact that five adult experience superheroes were unable to wield a fraction of the Phoenix Force's power with being corrupted should give you a pretty clear understanding of what would have taken place if an inexperienced hormonal teenager like Hope became the host in the first place. Tony's interference probably saved all their lives. Nothing in the entire history of the X-Men and their dealings with the Phoenix Force should have suggest to Cyclops that the PF was there to solve all their problems. Every time the PF shows up the earth / universe / multiverse almost gets destroyed and the X-Men have to step in at the last moment and save the day.
Two days . Two hours . Two minutes . I don't recall a set time-limit within which the PF would come to Earth and wreak havoc . Anyways , the point is that they intended to prepare her for it , before they got rudely interrupted by the Avengers and this whole mess started . I don't her training under them would have unfolded any different than what it was in Kun Lun .
Also , Scott didn't just suspect , he knew it from what Cable told him in X-Sanction .
We have to agree to disagree here . With the exception of Emma , none of them were prepared for handling the PF's power any better than Hope . In fact , from all the hints that had been dropped throughout previous X-Titles , since she already possessed a (very small) sliver of the PF , she had a slightly better chance of handling the power than Scott , Illyana , Piotr and Namor did .
Half a dozen times ? I only recall two or three incidences in which that persona came to life , and it was generally because of tampering with their mindsets .
Except that was merely a hypothetical scenario and Rachel had the Beyonder's power in addition to the PF's . Btw , since we are going about who was more dangerous , Wanda did FAR MORE than just wipe out the X-Gene , her Chaos Wave also tore apart the omniverse , an incident which no mad/out of control version of the Phoenix has ever perpetuated .
In Uncanny X-Men # 13 , it was revealed by Unit that the Phoenix was coming to Earth to heal the mess which Wanda made with her "No More mutants" spell , and that a similar incident happened billions of years ago on another planet , on which a messianic figure(like Hope) rose and bonded with the Phoenix and together with their 5 acolytes(here the Five Lights) , they fixed the damage that was done to the evolutionary growth of their race .
IN fact , Hope supposedly losing control and going Dark Phoenix(the scenario which you have been stating for so long) wouldn't even have happened had she had the Lights with her :http://s17.postimage.org/4wxygxm5b/011.jpg
I agree that in this case , the dickhead Unit is more to blame than anyone else , however it is unreasonable to assume that , with the way its backstory has been told in AVX , that the Phoenix was coming solely to destroy Earth .
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I think it's humorous that Hope, Beast and Wolverine are getting so much flack on the net for being "species traitors." It's a barrel of laughs. I suppose if you guys lived in Nazi Germany, you would have been all "Well... I don't agree with Hitler's policies... but I am German. Sieg Heil!" Scott is wrong. He's been wrong since day one, and if that wasn't clear when the event started (it was FYI), its painfully obvious now that he has gone Dark Phoenix and killed Xaivier. Why anyone would think that these characters should forgo common sense and ally themselves with Scott merely because they happen to be mutants is asinine.
Probably the most sense Srank has ever made.
Scott clearly jumped the shark before he even obtained the Phoenix Force. How anyone can logically agree with any of the decisions he's made in AvX is beyond me.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Probably the most sense Srank has ever made.Scott clearly jumped the shark before he even obtained the Phoenix Force. How anyone can logically agree with any of the decisions he's made in AvX is beyond me.
Last time I checked, no one on the X-men is responsible for the genocide of an entire species. The fxxking Avengers are harboring a Hitler/Stalin/Mao/etc.. in their ranks.
Originally posted by zopzop
Not really. His example is backwards. If anything, it's like the Jews and other Concentration Camp victims getting their hands on weapons and wtfpwing their tormentors/killers.Last time I checked, no one on the X-men is responsible for the genocide of an entire species. The fxxking Avengers are harboring a Hitler/Stalin/Mao/etc.. in their ranks.
In fact I mentioned it to Srank in our discussion over the last couple of pages , how off his Nazi/Hitler analogy was .
And don't forget , Wanda did FAR FAR.......FAR worse than that .
Originally posted by zopzop
Not really. His example is backwards. If anything, it's like the Jews and other Concentration Camp victims getting their hands on weapons and wtfpwing their tormentors/killers.Last time I checked, no one on the X-men is responsible for the genocide of an entire species. The fxxking Avengers are harboring a Hitler/Stalin/Mao/etc.. in their ranks.
...so Scott's decision to try and tame the Phoenix Force in the hopes that maybe this time it won't end badly for everyone involved in spite of prior history telling him the EXACT OPPOSITE occurs is a good one?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
...so Scott's decision to try and tame the Phoenix Force in the hopes that maybe this time it won't end badly for everyone involved in spite of prior history telling him the EXACT OPPOSITE occurs is a good one?
Not only would Phoenix have shifted the balance of power in the mutants'(the persecuted minority in this case) hands , it would(as per Uni't revelations) have fixed the mess that Wanda created .
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Considering the fact that how it never ended badly during Rachel's reign as Phoenix , Scott wasn't too far-fetched to have such a dream .Not only would Phoenix have shifted the balance of power in the mutants'(the persecuted minority in this case) hands , it would(as per Uni't revelations) have fixed the mess that Wanda created .
...
Scott, of all people, should know WTF happens when the Phoenix Force comes around. All he has to do is like at Jean and all her instances of self control and not going apeshit.
Oh, wait. 😐
The idea he's willing to make such a stupid gamble based on "well, maybe THIS time will be different!" is atrocious and highly irresponsible for someone who's supposed to be leading his people. The risks far outweigh the gains and the risks are far more likely to happen than his fantasy land dream.
I can agree with him being desperate - he obviously is if he's willing to chance the Phoenix Force on a hunch - but a good decision? It's anything BUT that.
AvX only makes that abudantly clear when - shocker - the Phoenix hosts go phucking crazy.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
...Scott, of all people, should know WTF happens when the Phoenix Force comes around. All he has to do is like at Jean and all her instances of self control and not going apeshit.
Oh, wait. 😐
The idea he's willing to make such a stupid gamble based on "well, maybe THIS time will be different!" is atrocious and highly irresponsible for someone who's supposed to be leading his people. The risks far outweigh the gains and the risks are far more likely to happen than his fantasy land dream.
I can agree with him being desperate - he obviously is if he's willing to chance the Phoenix Force on a hunch - but a good decision? It's anything BUT that.
AvX only makes that abudantly clear when - shocker - the Phoenix hosts go phucking crazy.
A stupid gamble only if you do the above , plus ignore what the purpose of the Phoenix entity itself has been(or at least was supposed to be before it ended up in the wrong hosts) according to this event .
So intending to prepare Hope for becoming the Phoenix(which *surprise*surprise* the Avengers did as well) is a very bad decision ? I guess making a piece of equipment to kill an entity which sustains all the stars in Marvel Universe , is a horrendous decision on the Avengers' part then .
Yup , Phoenix hosts who were never meant to be . And guess who is to blame for that fiasco ? Tony "hey look at me , I made a cool phoenix buster armor" Stark .
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Yeah , and that is completely discounting for all those years when Rachel had the Phoenix , and she never lost control , never went mad like Jean did .A stupid gamble only if you do the above , plus ignore what the purpose of the Phoenix entity itself has been(or at least was supposed to be before it ended up in the wrong hosts) according to this event .
So intending to prepare Hope for becoming the Phoenix(which *surprise*surprise* the Avengers did as well) is a very bad decision ? I guess making a piece of equipment to kill an entity which sustains all the stars in Marvel Universe , is a horrendous decision on the Avengers' part then .
Yup , Phoenix hosts who were never meant to be . And guess who is to blame for that fiasco ? Tony "hey look at me , I made a cool phoenix buster armor" Stark .
So, Scott is the voice of reason? The same guy who just killed Xavier, by all means not a perfect man, in cold blood and then blamed the Avengers for "making him do it"?
I mean, shit, Magneto, Mutant Terrorist Supreme, is telling Scott he's going off the deep end and Scott is basically ignoring it in the hopes he'll fix everything when he's doing anything but.
I don't honestly see how you can read AvX and come to the conclusion that Scott's been wise in this affair, let alone "right" in the decisions he's made. Even the writers are saying "yeah, Scott's been corrupted". He's become the new Dark Phoenix for crying out loud, the worse case scenario that everyone had been worrying about. And it happened.
There's not much to debate on that front.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, Scott is the voice of reason? The same guy who just killed Xavier, by all means not a perfect man, in cold blood and then blamed the Avengers for "making him do it"?I mean, shit, Magneto, Mutant Terrorist Supreme, is telling Scott he's going off the deep end and Scott is basically ignoring it in the hopes he'll fix everything when he's doing anything but.
I don't honestly see how you can read AvX and come to the conclusion that Scott's been wise in this affair, let alone "right" in the decisions he's made. Even the writers are saying "yeah, Scott's been corrupted". He's become the new Dark Phoenix for crying out loud, the worse case scenario that everyone had been worrying about. And it happened.
There's not much to debate on that front.
Again , you're referring to the instance when he turned into Dark Phoenix , which is basically after the P5 transformation incident , and the person to thank for that mess is Tony .
This fiasco is as much(if not more) of the Avengers' fault , as it is the X-Men's(and I honestly don't see how it can even be called their fault at all , since technically speaking they are the victims ultimately) .
I agree that on this front there is not much to debate at all .
If Scott would have listened to reason and worked alongside Cap instead of being an idiot and complaing that Cap never did enough to help mutants and generally acting butthurt on behalf of mutants everywhere (who didn't want this stupid war), this event would have been resolved in a single issue.
But that would be boring, obviously.
Still, it's very clear that Scott is the primary one to blame for all this. Abundantly so.
