"Innocence of Muslims" Crisis

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Not trying to "help" anyone's case. Clearly neither side is blameless. And "freedoms" should only be protected if people don't abuse it. I just think some people sometimes tend to take the extreme side on the freedom of speech debate.

And people have behaved like angry mindless mobs (aka bees) in the past. It's not like there aren't any riots in the first world either. It just takes the right amount of discontent (or anger or abundance of alcohol) and a trigger.

in the case of a bees nest you would blame the human who stirred the nest. but in this case we're dealing with other human beings and so that kind of reasoning is no longer appropriate.

the guy who made the movie is responsible for being a dick and making a shitty movie. but he's not responsible for other people causing mayhem over it, as far as i'm concerned.

i don't think it's at all extreme to think that free speech extends to being insulting or inflammatory.

Originally posted by Oliver North

Muslims are not "over-sensitive" to offending their prophet or religion, nor do they lack the ability to understand free speech. It is that they are being lied to by the people they trust and the only media they have access to.

Stills shows a lack of restrain and civility, imo. If someone tells me something that riles me to the point where I want to break, burn and/or kill (esp the later), I'd make sure it's true first.

Originally posted by Robtard
Stills shows a lack of restrain, imo. If someone tells me something that riles me to the point where I want to break, burn and/or kill (esp the later), I'd make sure it's true first.

Yeah, but...what could possibly do that?

"I just raped your wife and kids and mutilated them. They are barely alive. Do something about it."

IMO, that's almost the only thing that could rile you up to the point of killing, burning, and breaking.

Oh, and...campers. Those seem to make you rage.

Originally posted by Robtard
Stills shows a lack of restrain and civility, imo. If someone tells me something that riles me to the point where I want to break, burn and/or kill (esp the later), I'd make sure it's true first.

Oh, I agree, I'm not trying to forgive the violence or rampant idiocy that we see out of the protesters.

It just sort of gets on my nerves when people make blanket statements about a group of people with no real nuance. I'm not saying the protesters are acting rationally, in fact I don't think they are (though many of the protests have become anti-drone related, especially in Pakistan). I just think it is equally wrong to say they are over-sensitive individuals who can't comprehend free speech. That mindset seems nearly derogatory to me, as if, "omg, we need to protect these people from our freedoms, because they can't handle it".

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, but...what could possibly do that?

"I just raped your wife and kids and mutilated them. They are barely alive. Do something about it."

IMO, that's almost the only thing that could rile you up to the point of killing, burning, and breaking.

Oh, and...campers. Those seem to make you rage.

I also have an extremely hard time believing Muslims view insulting Mohammad as being equal to raping and mutilating their wives and children. I'm sure you could find the exceptions here and there.

Oh, you.

Originally posted by Robtard
If someone told me that, my first thought would be "I'm being trolled by an idiot".

I would do the same. If they showed pictures, I guess that would work.

Originally posted by Robtard
I also have an extremely hard time believing Muslims view insulting Mohammad as being equal to raping and mutilating their wives and children. I'm sure you could find the exceptions here and there.

Yes...that was my point, good sir!

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh, you.

no, oh ess you.

This was Pat Condell's view:

YouTube video

Originally posted by red g jacks
the way i interpreted your analogy was that making this kind of movie is no different then stirring a bee's nest; you can expect to get this kind of obscene reaction just like you'd expect the bees to attack you, so it's sorta his fault that they did.

in the case of a bees nest you would blame the human who stirred the nest. but in this case we're dealing with other human beings and so that kind of reasoning is no longer appropriate.

the guy who made the movie is responsible for being a dick and making a shitty movie. but he's not responsible for other people causing mayhem over it, as far as i'm concerned.

i don't think it's at all extreme to think that free speech extends to being insulting or inflammatory.

Human beings who would have an exact and predictable reaction to that specific stimuli. How is this any different? You poke at something, they go nuts. It's specific, it's predictable. The end result is ppl getting hurt.

And then we look at intent. Hell, why even post trailers on youtube when you know he probably already knows that his movie is so bad and no1 will definitely watch it other than extreme racists? It's obvious the guy wanted some kind of reaction and a form of notoriety. Kinda like those ppl who went on shooting sprees just to get attention. He just did it the legal way under the blanket of "freedom of speech". That way, he can have ppl come in and protect his "rights".

What I also don't get is why youtube didn't censor the damned thing. Copyright infringement? REMOVE! Boobs? CENSOR! Inflammatory videos that may cause loss of human life? Eh, we'll go on a looong debate about it and just block it in certain regions...

You can sue ppl for libel/slander if they defame your character, but when ppl die because of something you "said", ppl flock to protect you and your rights to speech....

That's terrible logic.

it's different because it's unreasonable to hold bees responsible for anything. the rioters are human beings who are responsible for their own actions.

it doesn't honestly matter what his intent is. the fact that he can elicit such a response with a shitty youtube video is what's actually at the root of the problem.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Human beings who would have an exact and predictable reaction to that specific stimuli. How is this any different? You poke at something, they go nuts. It's specific, it's predictable. The end result is ppl getting hurt.

And then we look at intent. Hell, why even post trailers on youtube when you know he probably already knows that his movie is so bad and no1 will definitely watch it other than extreme racists? It's obvious the guy wanted some kind of reaction and a form of notoriety. Kinda like those ppl who went on shooting sprees just to get attention. He just did it the legal way under the blanket of "freedom of speech". That way, he can have ppl come in and protect his "rights".

What I also don't get is why youtube didn't censor the damned thing. Copyright infringement? REMOVE! Boobs? CENSOR! Inflammatory videos that may cause loss of human life? Eh, we'll go on a looong debate about it and just block it in certain regions...

You can sue ppl for libel/slander if they defame your character, but when ppl die because of something you "said", ppl flock to protect you and your rights to speech....

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Kinda like those ppl who went on shooting sprees just to get attention.

wait... wut?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Freedom of speech can go f*ck itself, is what you're saying?

When freedoms get abused, then yes.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
That's terrible logic.

Elaborate?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
When freedoms get abused, then yes.

Whoa there, Lucien. You know a post like that is over the line.

Indeed. Watch the heat.

There are certain things that shouldn't be left uncensored, in any case. Freedom of speech is fantastic and all, but sometimes it causes problems. More often than not, though, it's awesome.

It's just the few that occasionally decide that it means they can spew offensive, awful nonsense that ruin it for everyone else.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Whoa there, Lucien. You know a post like that is over the line.

Originally posted by REXXXX
Indeed. Watch the heat.

There are certain things that shouldn't be left uncensored, in any case. Freedom of speech is fantastic and all, but sometimes it causes problems. More often than not, though, it's awesome.

It's just the few that occasionally decide that it means they can spew offensive, awful nonsense that ruin it for everyone else.

Regardless of your intention, please do not make posts like that in future, particularly with the swearing.

But it's censored.