Who can defeat MJJ?

Originally posted by Endless Mike

He was influencing the omniverse slowly,
Solar absorbed the Valiant and Wildstorm omniverse instantly.

Actually, Jaspers' warp expands exponentially,
so while it begins moderately, it continuously speeds up as it progresses.
(238 it took I believe 2 days to engulf it ... 616 is not mentioned,
but from one book to the next he became Eternity)

That aside though:

Matrix/Merlyn (uber Omniversal guardian)

Matrix/Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into tiny crystals.
One crystal for each universe ... crack a crystal, erase a universe.
This is how the Celestial Nullifier is used.

He created (from scratch)
a Pan-Dimensional Reality called "Otherworld" and everything in it.
That means this Reality is made up of several universes.

The "Starlight Citadel" an Omniversal Nexus,
where they can see (and affect) into every Reality simultaneously.
The SC has defenses of its own that can obliterate entire universes.

I Merlyn manipulating team Excalibur into absorbing some of the
energy of his power source at the time. (Energy Matrix)
It was enough to give them the power to literally reverse (and indeed rebuild)
in one swoop the Multiverse entire which was in the process of contracting collapse.

Now Merlyn himself was merged with the Matrix,
so imagine his level if Excalibur can pull that off by simply tapping it.

As incredible as Merlyn was,
the FAR weaker 238 Jaspers' warp "thwarted his abilities."
(but this version of JJ was susceptible to the life-force of the
universe he engulfed dying, so when 238's life-force was erased, so was he)

When it came to 616 MJJ, he understood that without the Fury,
there was no stopping him.
This is why he personally manipulated the events
so the Fury would find it's way into 616 from the nullified 238.

The Starlight Citadel was conquered by the Manchester Gods (servants of Surtur) so I don't think it's all that great... none of that other stuff compares to what Solar did either

Run for MJJ's money would be mxyzptlk, Tokimi, Emperor Joker, Bat Mite, qwsp, Hao Asakura, Celestial Toymaker,

Absolute Own MJJ: Lucifer Morning Star, The Presence, Great Evil Beast, Elaine, Yibb-Tstll and Yog-Sothoth outer Gods of Lovecraft.

Originally posted by lilshogun
Hao Asakura

LOL NO

The outergods of Lovecraft would get destroyed by MJJ.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

The Starlight Citadel was conquered by the Manchester Gods
(servants of Surtur) so I don't think it's all that great...

Originally posted by Endless Mike

none of that
other stuff compares to what Solar did either

After this, it's a question of "levels of infinity." ... and there's no way to gauge either one.

All I know is that in Marvel Comics, 616 MJJ was "God" within his warp,
and everything his warp touched, became his to control,
and nothing aside from the Fury (plot device) was able to stop him.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He was influencing the omniverse slowly, Solar absorbed the Valiant and Wildstorm omniverse instantly.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not my fault it's been de-valued since then.

I'm not aware of any official depowering or anything.

If you say so.
But again, Merlyn could crunch the Omniverse as easily as Solar did his,

I'd really like to see some proof of this. He could do nothing against MJJ who was only consuming the omniverse slowly.

If you're talking about the CN, it could only destroy one universe at a time, and there are infinities of infinities of universes in the omniverse. Even if he was operating the CN continuously for all eternity he would never even make a dent in the omniverse.

so I don't see what next level of affecting reality there is.

After this, it's a question of "levels of infinity." ... and there's no way to gauge either one.

All I know is that in Marvel Comics, 616 MJJ was "God" within his warp,
and everything his warp touched, became his to control,
and nothing aside from the Fury (plot device) was able to stop him.

And Solar, once realizing his full powers, was "God" over all of Valiant and nothing could stop him period...

LT
Scathan the Approver
Protege
Adam Warlock w/IG
Ereshkigal w/SB

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I'm not aware of any official depowering or anything.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I'd really like to see some proof of this.
He could do nothing against MJJ who was only consuming the omniverse slowly.

You think Jaspers warp gets stronger as it expands,
that's where you're mistaken.

MJJ's warp is already all-powerful from the get,
meaning if it has only engulfed a city block,
then withIN that city block, MJJ is "God,"
and no matter what anyone is capable of outside of that warp,
they can't compare to the "God" withIN the warp.

This is a basic, and frankly the simplest way to look at it to avoid mis-understandings.

That's the story of the Jaspers saga.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

If you're talking about the CN, it could only destroy one universe
at a time, and there are infinities of infinities of universes in the
omniverse.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Even if he was operating the CN continuously for all
eternity he would never even make a dent in the omniverse.

Merlyn (with Roma)
was manipulating events in the Prime Multiverse via freakin chessboards.

Also Mike, you must've missed the part when I explained how the CN works.
The CN on its own is useless.
It's the "Reality Crystals" which contain the life-force of the Omniverse,
and the life-force of the Omniverse is fused with these crystals courtesy of Merlyn.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

And Solar, once realizing his full powers, was "God" over all of
Valiant and nothing could stop him period...

But ... I guess if I had an opinion, I'd say stalemate,
since they were both "Gods."

As for "anyone period" ..

Well friend, Solar is a "good guy" right?

MJJ was literally a mad-man!

You think a story can be made where he goes on and isn't stopped?

❌

This is where a "plot-device" comes in,
one namely created by the inherent power of the Jaspers family.

Go figure.

Jaime Braddock

A lot of guys.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If it went from being able to clobber a universe to being conquered by no-bodies,
what would anyone call it good friend?

Maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be?

I see your confusion.

You think Jaspers warp gets stronger as it expands,
that's where you're mistaken.

MJJ's warp is already all-powerful from the get,
meaning if it has only engulfed a city block,
then withIN that city block, MJJ is "God,"
and no matter what anyone is capable of outside of that warp,
they can't compare to the "God" withIN the warp.

This is a basic, and frankly the simplest way to look at it to avoid mis-understandings.

That's the story of the Jaspers saga.

There are a bunch of beings that are "god" inside their realms/dimensions, doesn't make them capable of taking on people way above them.

Merlyn (with Roma)
was manipulating events in the Prime Multiverse via freakin chessboards.

Darkseid and a Monitor did that in Countdown... not seeing how that compares to Solar.

Also Mike, you must've missed the part when I explained how the CN works.
The CN on its own is useless.
It's the "Reality Crystals" which contain the life-force of the Omniverse,
and the life-force of the Omniverse is fused with these crystals courtesy of Merlyn.

Okay, what's your point? Solar doesn't need any crystals to do what he does.

Cool. I never made any suggestions as to JJ vs Solar.
I don't enjoy debating cross-company battles.

But ... I guess if I had an opinion, I'd say stalemate,
since they were both "Gods."

Why can't Solar do to him what the Fury did, erase a universe and then send him there and kill him?

As for "anyone period" ..

Well friend, Solar is a "good guy" right?

Well sometimes it's questionable...

MJJ was literally a mad-man!

You think a story can be made where he goes on and isn't stopped?

This is where a "plot-device" comes in,
one namely created by the inherent power of the Jaspers family.

Go figure.

Appeal to plot? Doesn't fly, sorry.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be?

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.
In fact, HOM Wanda's 'chaos wave" was able to sunder the
Omniverse via bringing down the Citadel.

Again, some rogue writer coming out the left and making things seem simpler,
is something I can't help.

But, for you to say, "maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be"
based on one writer's interpretation
vs the many other instances where the SC has been portrayed correctly ...
... I'll have to disagree with that.

Or again, as simple as the writer ... simply put: retcon.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

There are a bunch of beings that are "god" inside their
realms/dimensions, doesn't make them capable of taking on people way above them.

I'm talking about Jim Jaspers, who proved exactly that.

Merlyn did shit on an Omniversal scale,
238 JJ engulfed Eternity 238,
616 Jaspers went as far as engulfing 616 Eternity,
yet, Merlyn, (omniversal life-force crystals, Starlight Citadel, Celestial Nullifier, multi-dimensional universe: Otherworld,
and allowing Excalibur to absorb a fraction of his power to reverse
a Multiversal contracting collapse in session)

Yes, although all that .. still 238 Jaspers > Matrix/Merlyn

616 Jaspers >>> 238 Jaspers

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Darkseid and a Monitor did that in Countdown... not seeing how that compares to Solar.

In what issue did either of your mentions manipulate the Multiverse via chessboards?

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Okay, what's your point? Solar doesn't need any crystals to do what he does.

Merlyn's CN is useless without the Crystals.
Merlyn's CN was not created for personal use since again, he doesn't need it.

I don't think you're getting me friend, so if you return with the same mis-understanding,
I'll have to let this discussion go,
since I don't indulge circles anymore for the sake of info.

Once more:

Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into crystals.

Who gives a hoot about the "crystals?"

The significance here is taking the actual Life-Force of All Reality (omniverse)
and meticulously boding that Life-Force with the crystals so that OTHERS
may be able to erase Realities. (namely the Dimensional Dvelopment Court & Roma)

That's Omniversal manipulation on all levels.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Why can't Solar do to him what the Fury did,
erase a universe and then send him there and kill him?

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well sometimes it's questionable...

So yea, basically he's a good guy.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Appeal to plot? Doesn't fly, sorry.

You can call it "appeal to plot," but the facts are undeniable.

Had there been no Fury, ... MJJ becomes "God" of Marvel (in-universe stories)

Twisted comics to sell ey? 🙂

So yea, "appealing to plot" is a choice-less avenue that must be taken here,
otherwise, it's Mad Jim Jaspers Comics, instead of Marvel.

Cobweb literally witnessed what Merlyn predicted.

Merlyn said, if JJ isn't stopped, then 'a new God of the Omniverse would play dice with matter.'

Cobweb peered into a relevant Future-Self of hers (her power/ability to do so)
in it, the Fury did not stop Jaspers, and the Omniverse was cancelled. (on panel)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, on panel (artistically depicted) and in the bios it's an Omniversal Nexus.

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.
In fact, HOM Wanda's 'chaos wave" was able to sunder the
Omniverse via bringing down the Citadel.

Again, some rogue writer coming out the left and making things seem simpler,
is something I can't help.

But, for you to say, "maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be"
based on one writer's interpretation
vs the many other instances where the SC has been portrayed correctly ...
... I'll have to disagree with that.

Or again, as simple as the writer ... simply put: retcon.

I'm not talking about those wanna-bees that have been proven wrong.

I'm talking about Jim Jaspers, who proved exactly that.

Merlyn did shit on an Omniversal scale,
238 JJ engulfed Eternity 238,
616 Jaspers went as far as engulfing 616 Eternity,
yet, Merlyn, (omniversal life-force crystals, Starlight Citadel, Celestial Nullifier, multi-dimensional universe: Otherworld,
and allowing Excalibur to absorb a fraction of his power to reverse
a Multiversal contracting collapse in session)

Yes, although all that .. still 238 Jaspers > Matrix/Merlyn

616 Jaspers >>> 238 Jaspers

Nice. I wasn't comparing Merlyn to anyone,
I'm only telling you what his prior power was capable of.

In what issue did either of your mentions manipulate the Multiverse via chessboards?

Exactly, that's my point.

Merlyn's CN is useless without the Crystals.
Merlyn's CN was not created for personal use since again, he doesn't need it.

I don't think you're getting me friend, so if you return with the same mis-understanding,
I'll have to let this discussion go,
since I don't indulge circles anymore for the sake of info.

Once more:

Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into crystals.

Who gives a hoot about the "crystals?"

The significance here is taking the actual Life-Force of All Reality (omniverse)
and meticulously boding that Life-Force with the crystals so that OTHERS
may be able to erase Realities. (namely the Dimensional Dvelopment Court & Roma)

That's Omniversal manipulation on all levels.

Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

He remade Reality right? He remade it to normal proper functioning no?

So yea, basically he's a good guy.

I'm not interested in influencing anyone's opinion, or intransigence at kmc anymore,
my thing is to come into threads when characters I know well
are being demeaned, mis-represented or not given a fair or even an honest shake.

You can call it "appeal to plot," but the facts are undeniable.

Had there been no Fury, ... MJJ becomes "God" of Marvel (in-universe stories)

Twisted comics to sell ey? 🙂

So yea, "appealing to plot" is a choice-less avenue that must be taken here,
otherwise, it's Mad Jim Jaspers Comics, instead of Marvel.

Cobweb literally witnessed what Merlyn predicted.

Merlyn said, if JJ isn't stopped, then 'a new God of the Omniverse would play dice with matter.'

Cobweb peered into a relevant Future-Self of hers (her power/ability to do so)
in it, the Fury did not stop Jaspers, and the Omniverse was cancelled. (on panel)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, on panel (artistically depicted) and in the bios it's an Omniversal Nexus.

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.

You mean Man-Thing. Swamp Thing is DC. Also I thought the nexus of realities was something they tapped into, not something that was powered/created by the starlight citadel.

In fact, HOM Wanda's 'chaos wave" was able to sunder the
Omniverse via bringing down the Citadel.

I thought the citadel was just one of many places it messed up.

Again, some rogue writer coming out the left and making things seem simpler,
is something I can't help.

But, for you to say, "maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be"
based on one writer's interpretation
vs the many other instances where the SC has been portrayed correctly ...
... I'll have to disagree with that.

Or again, as simple as the writer ... simply put: retcon.

You know that retcon means they are changing something so the new version overrides the old version, right?

I'm not talking about those wanna-bees that have been proven wrong.

I'm talking about Jim Jaspers, who proved exactly that.

Except to the Fury...

Merlyn did shit on an Omniversal scale,
238 JJ engulfed Eternity 238,
616 Jaspers went as far as engulfing 616 Eternity,
yet, Merlyn, (omniversal life-force crystals, Starlight Citadel, Celestial Nullifier, multi-dimensional universe: Otherworld,
and allowing Excalibur to absorb a fraction of his power to reverse
a Multiversal contracting collapse in session)

Yes, although all that .. still 238 Jaspers > Matrix/Merlyn

238 Jaspers was killed by Lord Mandragon using the CN, which you said was just a fraction of Merlyn's power.

616 Jaspers >>> 238 Jaspers

But he still couldn't absorb the omniverse instantly.

Nice. I wasn't comparing Merlyn to anyone,
I'm only telling you what his prior power was capable of.

And I was using that example to show that characters who are weaker than what you are claiming for Merlyn have comparable feats.

In what issue did either of your mentions manipulate the Multiverse via chessboards?

I don't remember the exact issue (Countdown was a while ago, and to be honest a bunch of it is best left forgotten), but Darkseid and the Monitor were playing chess with each other, each of the pieces was a statue of a different character who were all spread throughout the multiverse, and when they made their moves things would happen to the characters that corresponded with their pieces.

Exactly, that's my point.

Merlyn's CN is useless without the Crystals.
Merlyn's CN was not created for personal use since again, he doesn't need it.

I don't think you're getting me friend, so if you return with the same mis-understanding,
I'll have to let this discussion go,
since I don't indulge circles anymore for the sake of info.

Once more:

Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into crystals.

Who gives a hoot about the "crystals?"

The significance here is taking the actual Life-Force of All Reality (omniverse)
and meticulously boding that Life-Force with the crystals so that OTHERS
may be able to erase Realities. (namely the Dimensional Dvelopment Court & Roma)

That's Omniversal manipulation on all levels.

Okay, but could Merlyn do what the CN could do without using the crystals? Like just snap his fingers and do what Lord Mandragon did to universe 238? Because if not you could say that he just built the machine, he doesn't have the inherent power of the machine. Like if Iron Man or someone builds a weapon, that doesn't mean they can duplicate the power of the weapon with just the natural power of their bodies.

Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.

That was because he could adapt to it, Solar once fought someone who could adapt to any power but he defeated him anyway.

On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

So wait, you think the likes of LT and TOAA couldn't have stopped him? Just because they weren't mentioned in the story doesn't mean they couldn't have kicked his ass if it came down to that. There are a lot of stories (i.e. Chaos War) with a big threat to the multiverse/omniverse and TOAA and LT don't show up, and everyone is worried that all reality is in danger, but that doesn't mean those entities are > LT and TOAA. More like LT and TOAA just didn't feel the need to interfere yet, or they had used their omniscience to foresee that MJJ would be defeated and thus didn't need to interfere.

Make a forum thread of LT vs. MJJ, I guarantee you everyone (well, everyone sane, which will be the vast majority of everyone) will say LT wins.

And you still didn't answer my question, why couldn't Solar do to him what the Fury did?

He remade Reality right? He remade it to normal proper functioning no?

So yea, basically he's a good guy.

Yes but he's also done some morally questionable stuff. He's an interesting character.

I'm not interested in influencing anyone's opinion, or intransigence at kmc anymore,
my thing is to come into threads when characters I know well
are being demeaned, mis-represented or not given a fair or even an honest shake.

You can call it "appeal to plot," but the facts are undeniable.

Had there been no Fury, ... MJJ becomes "God" of Marvel (in-universe stories)

I highly doubt that.

Twisted comics to sell ey? 🙂

So yea, "appealing to plot" is a choice-less avenue that must be taken here,
otherwise, it's Mad Jim Jaspers Comics, instead of Marvel.

Cobweb literally witnessed what Merlyn predicted.

Merlyn said, if JJ isn't stopped, then 'a new God of the Omniverse would play dice with matter.'

Cobweb peered into a relevant Future-Self of hers (her power/ability to do so)
in it, the Fury did not stop Jaspers, and the Omniverse was cancelled. (on panel)

Yes but alternate futures are just one small part of the omniverse which includes all possible universes, multiverses, and timelines. So if she saw something that wasn't what actually happened, she was just seeing one possible future, which is by definition only an infinitesimal part of the omniverse. Or you could say that since she is not omniscient, like you would need to be to comprehend the entire omniverse at once, she only saw a part of it consumed and mistook it as being the whole thing, since it was everything she could conceive of, but the totality of the omniverse is beyond what she could conceive of.

Either way, saying that Fury > MJJ > TOAA > LT, as you seem to be implying, is nonsense.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You mean Man-Thing. Swamp Thing is DC.
Also I thought the nexus of realities was something they tapped into,
not something that was powered/created by the starlight citadel.

Starlight Citadel is an omniversal Nexus, so it has access to those energies for tapping.

Or had access, I don't know what's going on with this new story,
I have to read it for myself.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I thought the citadel was just one of many places it messed up.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You know that retcon means they are changing something
so the new version overrides the old version, right?

If the ST (an omniversal Nexus) with defenses to explode universes,
is being ransacked by punks that shouldn't be able to,
that would mean imo, it's either PIS, or, the ST is not as potent as it used to be.
Which is a "change" in my book.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Except to the Fury...

No Fury, no Marvel.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

238 Jaspers was killed by Lord Mandragon using the CN,
which you said was just a fraction of Merlyn's power.

I also explained why 238 JJ was affected.

That aside, I never said the CN was a "fraction" of Merlyn's power.

I said team Excalibur used a "fraction" of Merlyn's power
to reverse/rebuild a Multiversal collapse in progress.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

But he still couldn't absorb the omniverse instantly.

Yes, MJJ does not wake up "omniversal."

MJJ wakes up as "God."

Then "God's" power begins to flow outward in all directions,
and everything and anything it comes across, it over powers and controls completely.

Now, outside of THIS "God's" power ... you can be universal, multiversal even omniversal like Merlyn,
ain't gonna do ya any good.

Because withIN his warp, Jaspers' power was absolute.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

And I was using that example to show that characters who are weaker
than what you are claiming for Merlyn have comparable feats.

... geesh, they should be at-least equal.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I don't remember the exact issue (Countdown was a while ago, and to be honest
a bunch of it is best left forgotten), but Darkseid and the Monitor were playing chess
with each other, each of the pieces was a statue of a different character who were
all spread throughout the multiverse, and when they made their moves things
would happen to the characters that corresponded with their pieces.

btw. Merlyn also had Chessboards floating around him each representing a universe.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Okay, but could Merlyn do what the CN could do without using the crystals? Like
just snap his fingers and do what Lord Mandragon did to universe 238? Because if
not you could say that he just built the machine, he doesn't have the inherent power
of the machine. Like if Iron Man or someone builds a weapon, that doesn't mean
they can duplicate the power of the weapon with just the natural power of their bodies.

Otherworld is a Universe containing multiple Realities. (one of a kind)

If he also had the power to jack the actual Life-Force of the Omniverse,
and place its significance & durability in 4' crystals
that if you pop one you snuff out an entire Universe ...

... it would seem to me outright destruction of a Reality would be child's play for him.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

That was because he could adapt to it,
Solar once fought someone who could adapt to any power but he defeated him anyway.

In Marvel's world, it's a different story.

This is why cross-comapany battles don't work for me.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

So wait, you think the likes of LT and TOAA couldn't have stopped him? Just
because they weren't mentioned in the story doesn't mean they couldn't have
kicked his ass if it came down to that. There are a lot of stories (i.e. Chaos War) with
a big threat to the multiverse/omniverse and TOAA and LT don't show up, and
everyone is worried that all reality is in danger, but that doesn't mean those entities
are > LT and TOAA. More like LT and TOAA just didn't feel the need to interfere yet,
or they had used their omniscience to foresee that MJJ would be defeated and thus
didn't need to interfere.

If you know me, and I think you do, it's silly even to bring up TOAA against anyone.

On to the Living Tribunal.

IMO, cause I have no proof:

Could the LT stop MJJ?

I'd say yes.

NOT Imo, since this is a fact!

Would the LT stop MJJ?

No. ... MJJ does not represent an imbalance of power.

This is why Cobweb witnessed the Omniverse being cancelled by 616 Jaspers
in a possible future where he wasn't stopped by the Fury.

Reason:

MJJ's power engulfs but does not stack,
so this means he's a Reality warper who's power is consistently stagnant.

The LT can only directly interfere when the power source is first of the Prime Multiverse,
and second,
elevating the parameters of the power contained withIN the closed system of the prime Multiverse.

The LT can and has been involved in decisions concerning other Multiverses
and eventualities outside of space-time.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Make a forum thread of LT vs. MJJ, I guarantee you everyone
(well, everyone sane, which will be the vast majority of everyone) will say LT wins.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

And you still didn't answer my question, why couldn't Solar do to him what the Fury did?

Anyway, Solar isn't the Fury.

Again, Fury was the ONLY existence that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
THIS, coupled with durability surpassing Abstracts,
and THIS, plus the most effective adaptive ability ever seen.

And yet, another truth that isn't highlighted enough,
is that Jaspers was fine, until taken to "un-space"
while the Fury by that point was depleted near exhaustion.

That fight would've lasted a couple more panels
and Jaspers eventually wins with a big smile at 100% optimal efficiency.
He controls Reality, the dude can't tire or be really hurt.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes but he's also done some morally questionable stuff. He's an interesting character.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I highly doubt that.

Matrix/Merlyn (Omniversal Guardian) states ... predicts with certainty!

"The Omniverse shall fall into chaos,
and a new God will play dice with matter"

-------------------------------

Here's Cobweb witnessing what would've happened,
had Merlin had not interfered in the Fury's destiny by luring it into 616.

But before that really quickly ...

(she can do this because she's constantly psychically connected to her past/future selves)

-------------------------------

Anyway, this is what happened if MJJ was not stopped by the Fury:

No more Omniverse.

-------------------------------

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes but alternate futures are just one small part of the omniverse which includes
all possible universes, multiverses, and timelines. So if she saw something that
wasn't what actually happened, she was just seeing one possible future, which is
by definition only an infinitesimal part of the omniverse. Or you could say that since
she is not omniscient, like you would need to be to comprehend the entire
omniverse at once, she only saw a part of it consumed and mistook it as being the
whole thing, since it was everything she could conceive of, but the totality of the
omniverse is beyond what she could conceive of.

Simple.

Cobweb is literally psychically connected to her Future-selves,
it's not a vision, it's actually an experience of the definite Future.

The ONLY reason it didn't happen, (MJJ omniverse take-over)
is because Merlyn interfered and manipulated the Fury to find its way to 616.

It was NOT in Fury's destiny to go to 616,
Merlyn was the culprit there.

But what Cobweb saw was supposed to happen, as everything she sees ALWAYS does.

My friend,
if you don't know about a character,
don't start assuming or naively theorizing about their make-up and abilities,
ask me, and I'll more than gladly give you all the info I got.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Either way, saying that Fury > MJJ > TOAA > LT,
as you seem to be implying, is nonsense.

I thought you knew me Mike? 🙁

You could've somehow mistaken me including the LT ... but TOAA? 😂

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]My bad, right ... Man-Thing.

Starlight Citadel is an omniversal Nexus, so it has access to those energies for tapping.

Or had access, I don't know what's going on with this new story,
I have to read it for myself.

Doesn't that just mean that it's one place where the energies connect to? Not that it generates them or anything.

It ripped out of 616 when it was re-arranged into 58163,
crashed into Otherworld where the Starlight Citadel is located,
when it took down the ST, it simultaneously flipped all the realities connected to it. (omniverse)

So you're saying that if it hadn't hit the SC it wouldn't have spread to the rest of the omniverse?

Heh, Yea I knew that Mike. 🙂

If the ST (an omniversal Nexus) with defenses to explode universes,
is being ransacked by punks that shouldn't be able to,
that would mean imo, it's either PIS, or, the ST is not as potent as it used to be.
Which is a "change" in my book.

It's in the recent Thor/Journey Into Mystery arc.

That was the plot.

No Fury, no Marvel.

You can't use that as an excuse. If the Fury stopped him, than anyone/anything as powerful or more powerful than the Fury (like the Living Tribunal) could also have stopped him.

Actually the CN was used on 238 Eternity.

I also explained why 238 JJ was affected.

That aside, I never said the CN was a "fraction" of Merlyn's power.

I said team Excalibur used a "fraction" of Merlyn's power
to reverse/rebuild a Multiversal collapse in progress.

So if 238 MJJ was killed by the CN, and you say he is > Merlyn, doesn't that mean that the CN is also > Merlyn?

That's not the way his power works.

Yes, MJJ does not wake up "omniversal."

MJJ wakes up as "God."

Then "God's" power begins to flow outward in all directions,
and everything and anything it comes across, it over powers and controls completely.

Now, outside of THIS "God's" power ... you can be universal, multiversal even omniversal like Merlyn,
ain't gonna do ya any good.

Because withIN his warp, Jaspers' power was absolute.

So you're saying not even Living Tribunal or TOAA could stop Jaspers Warp 🙄

How can a character be "weaker" than Merlyn,
and be able to wtf manipulate the entire DC omniverse?

... geesh, they should be at-least equal.

The Darkseid fanboys will be happy to hear you say this 😆

Cool. I would've enjoyed to feast my eyes.

btw. Merlyn also had Chessboards floating around him each representing a universe.

Like I said, Countdown was not exactly a good story. I personally don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, but I would definitely recommend avoiding it unless you are just too curious. If you want a good summary of everything wrong with it, watch Linkara's review.

He created Otherworld (pan-dimensional actuality) from nothingness.

Otherworld is a Universe containing multiple Realities. (one of a kind)

The recent Thor/JIM arc seemed to imply that Otherworld was only the size of the land area of the British Isles.

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/6b/Otherworld.jpg

If he also had the power to jack the actual Life-Force of the Omniverse,
and place its significance & durability in 4' crystals
that if you pop one you snuff out an entire Universe ...

Yeah but was it shown how he did this? How long did it take him? Did he use some kind of technology to do it?

... it would seem to me outright destruction of a Reality would be child's play for him.

But has he ever actually done so on-panel?

That's in Solar's world.

In Marvel's world, it's a different story.

This is why cross-comapany battles don't work for me.

...Then why do you post in the vs. forum?

I never said anything about TOAA.

If you know me, and I think you do, it's silly even to bring up TOAA against anyone.

You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G, presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?

On to the Living Tribunal.

IMO, cause I have no proof:

Could the LT stop MJJ?

I'd say yes.

You said only the Fury could stop him.

NOT Imo, since this is a fact!

Would the LT stop MJJ?

No. ... MJJ does not represent an imbalance of power.

This is why Cobweb witnessed the Omniverse being cancelled by 616 Jaspers
in a possible future where he wasn't stopped by the Fury.

Reason:

MJJ's power engulfs but does not stack,
so this means he's a Reality warper who's power is consistently stagnant.

The LT can only directly interfere when the power source is first of the Prime Multiverse,
and second,
elevating the parameters of the power contained withIN the closed system of the prime Multiverse.

The LT can and has been involved in decisions concerning other Multiverses
and eventualities outside of space-time.

Not really sure I buy that. IIRC he said that he didn't stop Thanos when he had the IG because his ambitions were only to rule the 616 universe, but he stepped in to try to stop Adam Warlock when he had it because the latter was planning to try to conquer/upset the multiverse and beyond. If MJJ was collapsing the omniverse LT would be all over that shit.

I never said even mentioned the LT, until you brought it up.

Yes, but you said:

Originally posted by you
Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

This implies that LT would not be immune to his powers, and could do nothing to stop him. Sorry if I am misunderstanding here.

Actually I did reply. I always reply to everything friend. Stay with me if you wanna debate.

Anyway, Solar isn't the Fury.

Again, Fury was the ONLY existence that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
THIS, coupled with durability surpassing Abstracts,
and THIS, plus the most effective adaptive ability ever seen.

And yet, another truth that isn't highlighted enough,
is that Jaspers was fine, until taken to "un-space"
while the Fury by that point was depleted near exhaustion.

That fight would've lasted a couple more panels
and Jaspers eventually wins with a big smile at 100% optimal efficiency.
He controls Reality, the dude can't tire or be really hurt.

Yes Solar isn't the Fury but he could still do what the Fury did. His feats of reality warping and manipulation of time/space tell me he could resist Jaspers' powers at least as well as the Fury could, and his cosmic awareness and power could let him know to nullify a universe and take MJJ there to kill him.

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]Opinions can doubted, not facts:

Matrix/Merlyn (Omniversal Guardian) states ... predicts with certainty!

*snip*

"The Omniverse shall fall into chaos,
and a new God will play dice with matter"

-------------------------------

Here's Cobweb witnessing what would've happened,
had Merlin had not interfered in the Fury's destiny by luring it into 616.

But before that really quickly ...

(she can do this because she's constantly psychically connected to her past/future selves)

*snip*
-------------------------------

Anyway, this is what happened if MJJ was not stopped by the Fury:

*snip*

No more Omniverse.

Yes, I am familiar with all of these scans, I said I doubted it because if Fury hadn't stopped him, then LT or TOAA would. You agreed in your last post that LT and TOAA could both stop him, so what is there to argue about?

O .. k. ... This has nothing to do with Cobweb, her character and/or power.

Simple.

Cobweb is literally psychically connected to her Future-selves,
it's not a vision, it's actually an experience of the definite Future.

The ONLY reason it didn't happen, (MJJ omniverse take-over)
is because Merlyn interfered and manipulated the Fury to find its way to 616.

It was NOT in Fury's destiny to go to 616,
Merlyn was the culprit there.

But what Cobweb saw was supposed to happen, as everything she sees ALWAYS does.

My friend,
if you don't know about a character,
don't start assuming or naively theorizing about their make-up and abilities,
ask me, and I'll more than gladly give you all the info I got.

But like you said, that future didn't actually happen. So if she experienced it happening, it must have been an alternate future. It might originally have been the "true" future, but like you said, events were altered so it didn't happen, and instead became an alternate future. Either way it is not the totality of the omniverse, which includes all possible futures and timelines.

Also, since you want me to ask about the character: Is she omniscient and capable of comprehending things on a cosmic/abstract level? Because if not, you can't trust her 100% when she says the entire omniverse had fallen, because she would be unable to comprehend the entirety of the omniverse.

Not that I don't think MJJ was a threat to the omniverse, Merlyn (who can comprehend the omniverse) said he was and I believe him. I just think that there is no way he would have ever conquered the entire omniverse, because LT or TOAA would have stopped him before he got to that point.

It's even greater nonsense for you to assume I meant that, or even hinted at that.

I thought you knew me Mike?

You could've somehow mistaken me including the LT ... but TOAA?

Well that does seem to be what you are implying.

TOAA is God over the Marvel omniverse, and represents the Marvel company.

You were saying MJJ would become God over the Marvel Omniverse and it would be "Mad Jim Jaspers Comics" instead of Marvel Comics. That sure seems like you were saying he would replace TOAA.