Who can defeat MJJ?

Mxy
GEB

Man of Miracles should be able to as well.

indeed

The A

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Doesn't that just mean that it's one place where the energies connect to?
Not that it generates them or anything.

Again, that's how Havok did his thing,
that's why these Nexuses are guarded, cause they can exploited.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

So you're saying that if it hadn't hit the SC
it wouldn't have spread to the rest of the omniverse?

I'm just telling you how the story went.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

It's in the recent Thor/Journey Into Mystery arc.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You can't use that as an excuse. If the Fury stopped him, than
anyone/anything as powerful or more powerful than the Fury (like
the Living Tribunal) could also have stopped him.

What the LT was capable is against JJ is inconsequential,
since in the story he would've engulfed the Omniverse
and everything in it ...
but the plot device was written in so this wouldn't happen. (Fury)

Originally posted by Endless Mike

So if 238 MJJ was killed by the CN,
and you say he is > Merlyn,
doesn't that mean that the CN is also > Merlyn?

Unfortunately for 238 Jaspers, while his warp was just as powerful,
in terms of re-arranging reality,
he was susceptible to the nullification of the Reality he stood in.

Remember Mike, the CN (crystal cracker) attacks from withIN,
it erases the actual Life-Force of said Universe, from beyond space-time,
not even Eternity's spirit lingers unlike with the UN.
The UN also attacks from the outside instead, via a nullification sphere that expands.

The CN didn't have to penetrate Jaspers warp to attack the Reality he was in.

This move though, would not have worked on 616 JJ,
since it seems it would've had no affect on him or the reality he stood in.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

So you're saying not even Living Tribunal or TOAA could stop Jaspers Warp

Originally posted by Endless Mike

The Darkseid fanboys will be happy to hear you say this

I'm talking about absolute control of Omniverse's Life-Force.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Like I said, Countdown was not exactly a good story. I personally don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, but I would definitely recommend
avoiding it unless you are just too curious. If you want a good summary of
everything wrong with it, watch Linkara's review.

I wanna see/read this for self, I also wanna no if there are stipulations.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

The recent Thor/JIM arc seemed to imply that Otherworld
was only the size of the land area of the British Isles.

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/6b/Otherworld.jpg

What about the Cosmos surrounding the land?

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yeah but was it shown how he did this?
How long did it take him?
Did he use some kind of technology to do it?

He did it the only way possible, by using the power he was merged to. (Energy Matrix)

There's no visual of the feat, there's also no tech capable of this either,
we know he did it cause he was the one that gave the CN to Dimensional Development Court,
and he was the ONLY person (in those Moore runs)
with access to power to be able to do so.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

But has he ever actually done so on-panel?

This includes the Starlight Citadel, CN and other tech he enjoys.

If you can create a thing, then you can destroy a thing.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

...Then why do you post in the vs. forum?

If it's cross-comapnay, then I'll step in (if I feel I need to)
for the purpose of info concerning the Marvel side.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he
would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G,
presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?

Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You said only the Fury could stop him.

And I'm not changing my stance which simply pushes truth according to the story.

That aside, you seem to be trying to nip-pick my posts for inconsistencies.

You're gonna have to try harder, much harder.

So back topic:

Yea, I said (which you left out in the nit-icking)

IMO cause I have NO proof

LT could stop JJ.

NOW, with proof, On Panel, in story, in handbook,
... nothing but the Fury could stop Jaspers.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Not really sure I buy that. IIRC he said that he didn't stop Thanos when he had the IG because his ambitions were only to rule the 616 universe, but he stepped in
to try to stop Adam Warlock when he had it because the latter was planning to try to
conquer/upset the multiverse and beyond. If MJJ was collapsing the omniverse LT
would be all over that shit.

Also, you're wrong on your account of the Warlock case.

Warlock didn't want to conquer the universe let-alone the Multiverse,
in fact, Warlock just wanted didn't want to be bothered.

The LT interfered with Warlock cause Eternity asked him to,
NOT cause the LT decided to.

The LT realized that Warlock would soon cause an imbalance
due to his incapacity to harness the IG correctly. (mentally unfit to be GOD he said)

The 616 IG is not of the Multiverse btw,
it is an external/extra energy source added to Reality by the Infinity Being.

Two creations at the dawn of Time, Reality and the Infinity Gems placed in reality.

Also, where was the LT when Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces? 😬

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes, but you said:

This implies that LT would not be immune to his powers,
and could do nothing to stop him. Sorry if I am misunderstanding here.

I can only give an opinion, if I had to guess, I'd say the LT > JJ,
but then again, when it comes to uber Reality warpers,
it seems TOAA allows a lot of rope for them to play.

Look at Protege, HOM Wanda, Edifice Rex to name a few.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes Solar isn't the Fury but he could still do what the Fury did. His feats of reality
warping and manipulation of time/space tell me he could resist Jaspers' powers at
least as well as the Fury could, and his cosmic awareness and power could let him
know to nullify a universe and take MJJ there to kill him.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes, I am familiar with all of these scans, I said I doubted it because if Fury hadn't stopped him, then LT or TOAA would. You agreed in your last post that LT and TOAA could both stop him, so what is there to argue about?

I made my point but you continue to return.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

But like you said, that future didn't actually happen. So if she
experienced it happening, it must have been an alternate future. It
might originally have been the "true" future, but like you said,
events were altered so it didn't happen, and instead became an
alternate future. Either way it is not the totality of the omniverse,
which includes all possible futures and timelines.

The Fury came to 616 and changed Jaspers destiny before said Time arrived.

Actually, there's only one Omniverse in Marvel
so if Jaspers engulfed the Omniverse as Cobweb witnessed,
then it was the totality of the Omniverse that would've been cancelled.

Just like Merlyn said it would happen.

Please, let's not try and twist facts to devalue the guy you're voting against.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Also, since you want me to ask about the character: Is she
omniscient and capable of comprehending things on a
cosmic/abstract level? Because if not, you can't trust her 100%
when she says the entire omniverse had fallen, because she would
be unable to comprehend the entirety of the omniverse.

It's comics.

That's Cobweb's power, her only power.

To peer into definite futures since she's psychically connected to her future-selves.

That's it,
no need for spins with this "comprehension" tick you've completely made up.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Not that I don't think MJJ was a threat to the omniverse, Merlyn
(who can comprehend the omniverse) said he was and I
believe him.

I just think that there is no way he would have ever
conquered the entire omniverse, because LT or TOAA would have
stopped him before he got to that point.

But since Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces while simultaneously wtf remaking 616,
and the LT wasn't even mentioned,
I'm 100% certain that if Moore (TOAA) wanted Jaspers conquering the Omniverse,
then it would've happened.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well that does seem to be what you are implying.

TOAA is God over the Marvel omniverse, and represents the Marvel company.

You were saying MJJ would become God over the Marvel Omniverse
and it would be "Mad Jim Jaspers Comics" instead of Marvel Comics.
That sure seems like you were saying he would replace TOAA.

It is they who make Jaspers, or any other characters,
as powerful or weak as they wish.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I couldn't have.

Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

Actually... Adams says the One is even above Gods... not the one God. Marvel has a lot of Gods like Odin, Celestials are also called Spacegods. That would make far more sense if he meant that type of "Gods" and not the singular "God".

I don't want to interrupt you both but that one felt simply wrong.

Even if Adam Warlock would think of himself as God with that power, we all know better that he wasn't the God of the Multiverse and people tend to say a lot in comics once they get some power, CC, IG, THOTU.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The energies flow through there, and thus can be harnessed.

Again, that's how Havok did his thing,
that's why these Nexuses are guarded, cause they can exploited.

But it's not the source of these energies.

Write Marvel a letter and ask.

I'm just telling you how the story went.

Just trying to get an idea of what you are claiming here.

In the Jaspers saga, Alan Moore's story,
nothing could stop Jaspers except for the Fury. (his personal plot-device)

What the LT was capable is against JJ is inconsequential,
since in the story he would've engulfed the Omniverse
and everything in it ...
but the plot device was written in so this wouldn't happen. (Fury)

But this story doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a part of the overall Marvel continuity, which includes characters like LT and TOAA. So when you are analyzing it you have to consider what role they might have to play if things went differently.

Since Merlyn wasn't/isn't intrinsically tied to the Life-Force of any reality,
no.

Unfortunately for 238 Jaspers, while his warp was just as powerful,
in terms of re-arranging reality,
he was susceptible to the nullification of the Reality he stood in.

Remember Mike, the CN (crystal cracker) attacks from withIN,
it erases the actual Life-Force of said Universe, from beyond space-time,
not even Eternity's spirit lingers unlike with the UN.
The UN also attacks from the outside instead, via a nullification sphere that expands.

The CN didn't have to penetrate Jaspers warp to attack the Reality he was in.

This move though, would not have worked on 616 JJ,
since it seems it would've had no affect on him or the reality he stood in.

That has nothing to do with what I was asking. I was saying if you think 238 Jaspers > Merlyn, but one of Merlyn's devices was able to defeat him, how does that make sense?

So yea I'm not saying that.

Could have fooled me.

I'm not talking about moving simple pieces on a chessboard.

I'm talking about absolute control of Omniverse's Life-Force.

Well the pieces represent characters in different universes.

Already downloaded it.

I wanna see/read this for self, I also wanna no if there are stipulations.

Oh boy. Prepare yourself for a cluster****, is all I'll say.

I see them detailing parts of the realm, (on land)
but where do you read that that is the totality of Otherworld?

What about the Cosmos surrounding the land?

Well the Manchester Gods conquered it by simply conquering all the places shown on the land there.

He did it the only way possible, by using the power he was merged to. (Energy Matrix)

There's no visual of the feat, there's also no tech capable of this either,
we know he did it cause he was the one that gave the CN to Dimensional Development Court,
and he was the ONLY person (in those Moore runs)
with access to power to be able to do so.

I never said he didn't do it, I was asking for the specifics on how and how long it took him and such.

He created Otherworld, and everything in it.

This includes the Starlight Citadel, CN and other tech he enjoys.

If you can create a thing, then you can destroy a thing.

Yes but I am not exactly convinced of Otherworld's size. Could you post some scans showing it is universe sized or bigger?

Well, if it's two Marvel cats I'll way in my opinion.

If it's cross-comapnay, then I'll step in (if I feel I need to)
for the purpose of info concerning the Marvel side.

You're missing out on a lot of fun...

I couldn't have.

Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

*snip*

That says he was above "gods" which presumably means the likes of Zeus, Odin, etc. TOAA is often referred to as simply "God" such as in the FF arc when he appeared as Jack Kirby.

That's correct.

And I'm not changing my stance which simply pushes truth according to the story.

That aside, you seem to be trying to nip-pick my posts for inconsistencies.

Nip-pick? 😕

You're gonna have to try harder, much harder.

So back topic:

Yea, I said (which you left out in the nit-icking)

IMO cause I have NO proof

LT could stop JJ.

NOW, with proof, On Panel, in story, in handbook,
... nothing but the Fury could stop Jaspers.

So you're saying there's no proof TOAA could stop him either?

Again friend, I told ya, I'm not selling anything,
and I sure don't care anymore who's swayed or not by facts/truth and proof.

Also, you're wrong on your account of the Warlock case.

Warlock didn't want to conquer the universe let-alone the Multiverse,
in fact, Warlock just wanted didn't want to be bothered.

The LT interfered with Warlock cause Eternity asked him to,
NOT cause the LT decided to.

The LT realized that Warlock would soon cause an imbalance
due to his incapacity to harness the IG correctly. (mentally unfit to be GOD he said)

Well like I said he would do something that would affect the multiverse at large. And you're saying that none of the Eternities being threatened by MJJ would ask the LT to help?

The 616 IG is not of the Multiverse btw,
it is an external/extra energy source added to Reality by the Infinity Being.

Two creations at the dawn of Time, Reality and the Infinity Gems placed in reality.

Okay, what's your point?

Also, where was the LT when Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces?

She didn't destroy it, she just altered it. Presumably LT was okay with the alterations.

Maybe he was, maybe not, I don't know.

I can only give an opinion, if I had to guess, I'd say the LT > JJ,
but then again, when it comes to uber Reality warpers,
it seems TOAA allows a lot of rope for them to play.

Look at Protege, HOM Wanda, Edifice Rex to name a few.

Protege was the only one of those that was able to actually challenge LT IIRC.

That's your unprovable opinion, and I respect it, but I completely disagree.

Why?

If your position is that the Fury was the only one who could beat MJJ within the context of the story, that doesn't mean anything because Solar doesn't exist within the context of the MJJ story.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Argue about?"

I made my point but you continue to return.

Sorry....

Actually, it never happened at all because the time was never reached.

The Fury came to 616 and changed Jaspers destiny before said Time arrived.

So if it never happened you can't say it was definitely going to happen.

Actually, there's only one Omniverse in Marvel

I never claimed otherwise.

so if Jaspers engulfed the Omniverse as Cobweb witnessed,
then it was the totality of the Omniverse that would've been cancelled.

Just like Merlyn said it would happen.

Please, let's not try and twist facts to devalue the guy you're voting against.

This real world logic has no place here friend.

It's comics.

That's Cobweb's power, her only power.

To peer into definite futures since she's psychically connected to her future-selves.

That's it,
no need for spins with this "comprehension" tick you've completely made up

TOAA are the representative avatars of the writers and artists.

It is they who make Jaspers, or any other characters,
as powerful or weak as they wish.

You totally sidestepped my point here.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Actually... Adams says the One is even above Gods... not the one
God. Marvel has a lot of Gods like Odin, Celestials are also called
Spacegods. That would make far more sense if he meant that type of
"Gods" and not the singular "God".

I don't want to interrupt you both but that one felt simply wrong.

Adam was referring to himself being judged by the LT
who is the representative of TOAA. (the one above even Gods)

The IG clearly was stated over and over again to make its wielder God,
heck, the LT himself asked Warlock, if this the type of God you wish to be?

So, Odin and the rest you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with that scene,
especially since Odin and your group are insects to the IG,
and no where near the God-like status
to warrant the attentions of the LT let-alone TOAA.

So, it may feel wrong to ya, but those are the facts.

hey mr. m

how about the presence as well 😛

Originally posted by Mr Master
😐

Adam was referring to himself being judged by the LT
who is the representative of TOAA. (the one above even Gods)

The IG clearly was stated over and over again to make its wielder God,
heck, the LT himself asked Warlock, if this the type of God you wish to be?

So, Odin and the rest you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with that scene,
especially since Odin and your group are insects to the IG,
and no where near the God-like status
to warrant the attentions of the LT let-alone TOAA.

So, it may feel wrong to ya, but those are the facts.

Above Gods such as himself, I wrote it too. And he wasn't the God, he was one of those who see themself as gods.
So each IG in each Universe makes it's wielder an God and not the replacement for the god. Such gods are irrelevant to a single God who is = TOAA.
So Warlock isn't the only one who thinks he is a god and everyone who gets something as powerful as the IG might think he is god. Warlock wasn't sure as hell talking about THE God. That's why he said Gods, plural.

As for the facts.

This was the dialogue:
He:
You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he
would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G,
presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?

You:
I couldn't have.
Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

So if Mike talks about MJJ replacing the GOD with a capital G it's clear he means the supreme being.
Your reply implies that you think there is a God, like a supreme being and TOAA who is even above this God.
You "prove" was this scan" and even though out of the context it doesn't makes this claim a fact, as he was surely not referring to the God with a capital G but only to himself and would be gods who think they wield ultimate power.

Either you weren't clear enough or you are simply wrong^^.

But continue your dialogue with Mike. I'm curious how it develops.

He would have been God like Thanos was with the heart. TOAA never interferes in anything, except that time when he trolled Thanos. And whenever he is an avatar.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Actually... Adams says the One is even above Gods... not the one God. Marvel has a lot of Gods like Odin, Celestials are also called Spacegods. That would make far more sense if he meant that type of "Gods" and not the singular "God".

I don't want to interrupt you both but that one felt simply wrong.

Even if Adam Warlock would think of himself as God with that power, we all know better that he wasn't the God of the Multiverse and people tend to say a lot in comics once they get some power, CC, IG, THOTU.

Captain Britian w/Excalibur and Amulet of power, can rewrite the whole marvel omniverse

^^ 👆 And Merlyn created both of them too.

On Panel, Excalibur, alone, (with one stroke) erased "Jude"
an entity embodying 3 Concepts of an entire universe. (Death/Oblivion/Entropy)

Brian also remade an entire Timeline (beginning to end)
with a thought.

Mastermind (not X-men enemy) nearly re-aaranged the Omniverse with Excalibue/Amulet,
but of course, stories must end, so he was stopped before that via plot.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Its not like Adam used the term "Gods" to mean the sort of
deity(above all those other "gods" you mentioned) the IG makes its
wielder, right ?

The term Supreme Being/God has been thrown about a lot . IMO
MrMaster was simply giving an example of how the one true Supreme
Being(TOAA) is above the wannabes like Alien Entity , Infinity Being ,
Sise-Neg etc. etc.

On top of the fact, that "mythological gods"
are "gods" in comparison with mortals/humans and what not,
but Skyfathers weren't even part of the IG affair,
and they weren't even mentioned or even hinted at during Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1,
which is what Warlock is referring to when he was JUDGED by the LT.

Also, only true ignorance would suggest that IG/Warlock
was categorizing Odin, Zeus or even Celestials as God-like as himself.

Especially when Warlock felt (& knew) that the hierarchy itself (including Eternity)
was beneath him, save for the LT.

------------------------------------------

Mike, I haven't forgotten you, I'll reply in a while to your responses and questions.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Captain Britian w/Excalibur and Amulet of power, can rewrite the whole marvel omniverse

When has this happened?

Originally posted by "Id"

When has this happened?

But during the second run of the Excalibur series,
a story was dedicated to the Sword and Amulet,
and it was confirmed across the run, several sources that it's potential was that uber.

A cat named Mastermind, (who got his hands on said power)
messed up the Continuum,
and was going to remake the Omniverse,
but Excalibur destroyed him cause only the righteous may wield it.

So Brian (with a gesture) re-created the Timeline with a positive Future.

Roma called Excalibur: "The Hand of God"

Originally posted by Mr Master
This weapon and artifact belong to the "good guys"
so we're not going to see it happening for kicks.

But during the second run of the Excalibur series,
a story was dedicated to the Sword and Amulet,
and it was confirmed across the run, several sources that it's potential was that uber.

A cat named Mastermind, (who got his hands on said power)
messed up the Continuum,
and was going to remake the Omniverse,
but Excalibur destroyed him cause only the righteous may wield it.

So Brian (with a gesture) re-created the Timeline with a positive Future.

Roma called Excalibur: "The Hand of God"

So no. We don't have hard evidence to back up its claim.

Hey ID, ... true, it hasn't actually happened,
but the 4 book run was literally based on Excalibur's power.
It was dialogued by several different characters including Roma
that Excalibur not only was the true weapon of the Omniversal guardian
but that it could "sunder the Omniverse" or "remake the Cosmos."

But again, it belongs to the good guys, so it's not going to just happen,
unless there is a need of course.

Brian did all he needed to do and did with a gesture.

That shows the ease Excalibur needed to erase/re-create an entire Timeline with a New Future.

Also, if that is truly what empowered Roma as Omniversal guardian,
let's not forget she stalemated for a while that omniversal CCU from the C-Engine Trilogy.

Just sayin.

Claims that are not backed by hard evidence, are regarded as hyperbole.