Originally posted by Mr Master
The only opponent the GF confronted were those Celestials,
after it had devoured that alternate Galactus and that alternate PF,
and while the GF was at its most powerful it still lost to just that 5th host.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I know what she intentionally did.
All the rest is discussion I am not really interested in as I agree with most of your views regarding HoM .
Originally posted by TheGodKillerThe PF was the only entity it "devoured" . Galactus merely "fell"
before it(i.e he was only beaten/defeated) , and the Celestials' "great
race" got "devastated" in the process of containing the GF .
One 616 Celestial should be more than enough to stomp, imo.
Also, even after absorbing the PF,
GF only caught the concern of the Celestials,
which are near the bottom of the food chain in the Cosmic hierarchy of any universe.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerIntentionally did ? I know this much that it was revealed that those
mutants managed to survive her onslaught because their X-Gene was
located on a different chromosome or some such dipsh|t explanation .
Imo, it's more of a corporate move by the Editors.
They're not going to have the entire mutant-hood of heroes/villains
de-powered for months across mainstream titles.
That's simply not feasible from a business standpoint.
The very fact that Wanda (with a thought) was able to rebuild the entire Omniverse,
while meticulously re-arranging 616 back and forth,
is blatant proof that she could've easily de-powered
anyone she wanted without set-backs.
So, this is why imo, I think it was a head-quarter decision from the get,
which makes perfect sense.
Originally posted by Mr Master
It had to exist even though we as readers were never given that eye candy.
It existed because it was a "force of nature."
That's cause they all got stomped without her even trying.Keep also in mind,
that Goblin Queen for all its power really never did anything to the Cosmics.Oh wait, she stomped that alternate PF and big G.
But I've seen Xorn explode the actual PF, (616 bio fact)
an Alien Ship was absorbing the PF, (616 bio fact) like the GF, (not 616)
and 6 heroes stalemated it. (616 bio fact)
oh, and Galactus was going to erase it all together with tech. (616 bio fact)Was that alternate big G hungry that lost to GF?
Who knows.
Anyway, the Celestials were devastated although they won,
but the GF had to have the combined power of big G and the PF
plus its own to do that. 🙂
Compare that to What If Secret Wars where Doom with SW Beyonder's power AND the IG destroyed the Celestials BUT the IG was depowered and the Gems were destroyed as a result AND Doom burnt out almost all of the Beyonder's power and only had enough to reignite the Earth's core before the Beyonder's power was completely spent too!
Actually, it didn't.That's the Goblin Force in the form of the Beyonder sleeping,
not the actual Beyonder. 😂Anyway good friend, the first thing this so-called Beyonder did upon awakening,
is do exactly what the GF does .. absorb:That's not part of Beyonder's power-set, or character make-up.
That's the GF solely.
-------------------------------------
LOL! ... so Beyonder decided to hibernate ... for no reason,
leaving his body exposed and vulnerable ... for no reason.Oh, and where/when in the hell did Beyonder do this AFTER Secret Wars? 😆
He must've transported his body from the Beyond Realm to Earth-1280
in-between SSII and the first retcon
cause that's where he went after SSII. (to the Beyond Realm)
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 Although those alternate Celestials are definitely not = to 616.One 616 Celestial should be more than enough to stomp, imo.
Also, even after absorbing the PF,
GF only caught the concern of the Celestials,
which are near the bottom of the food chain in the Cosmic hierarchy of any universe.
And just like the Mutant X scenario, it only showed a handful of Celestials (a Host?) fighting Doom then afterward saying that their race was killed. Some posters on this forum were even arguing that Doom ONLY fought a Host for 407 years. I'm sure you can find their posts if you wanted using Google.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/priest_85/WhatIf-SecretWars029.jpg
Originally posted by Mr MasterBottomline:
The GF needed the Nexus of Realities
& Havok's support since only he could merge with it
in order to try and do what Wanda did.
I have to know, I read somewhere a while ago where you stated that Havok with the nexus "may be the most powerful being in the Omniverse, after LT."
Edit: found the link where you said that but can't post it. It's on page 51 of your "everything cosmic" thread. Iknow it's old but maybe you still hold that opinion?
Since Wanda is in the Omniversal feats league, where do you rank Wanda compared to Alex?
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 Although those alternate Celestials are definitely not = to 616.
Do you have a context related source for that?
For example, in case of the Celestials of 4280, Jonathan Hickman confirmed they are equal in power to their 616 counterparts.
(can't post the source / link as a new poster
I don't know if you consider an author's opinion outside of a comic canon or hyperbole. In this case said writer made a comment about characters(the Mad Celestials) he created.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll review those issues to get the full cap, but I recall something akin to that.Imo, it's more of a corporate move by the Editors.
They're not going to have the entire mutant-hood of heroes/villains
de-powered for months across mainstream titles.That's simply not feasible from a business standpoint.
The very fact that Wanda (with a thought) was able to rebuild the entire Omniverse,
while meticulously re-arranging 616 back and forth,
is blatant proof that she could've easily de-powered
anyone she wanted without set-backs.So, this is why imo, I think it was a head-quarter decision from the get,
which makes perfect sense.
Edit : In the What If version of HoM , Wanda depowered every super-neing in existence through the words ""No more powers" . So it really makes no sense why the mainstream version would have a couple of mutants survive . Maybe the X-Franchise's(may the Lord have mercy on it for being passed onto Bendis) fanbase was the reason ?
👆
Originally posted by zopzop
But why use the GF though? Seeing as how it never made an
appearance in 616 reality? Why not use another "Force" (Power
Cosmic, Power Primordial, etc..) or make up a "Force" a la
Annihilation with Annihilus tapping the "Opposing Force"? How
would 616 mystics and Ian Mcnee know of the GF when it never
showed it's face in 616 and was supposedly destroyed years before
the events in Mystic Arcana and Tarot?
Originally posted by zopzopBut like you said the PF is weaksauce and we don't know how
hungry Galactus was. So it was mainly the power of the GF that
devastated the entire race of Celestials in the Mutant X universe
and the GF wasn't destroyed, it was merely contained. Further
proof is that when the GF reemerged the Celestials were nowhere
to be found and didn't confront it.
Celestials not confronting the GF in its re-
emergence has nothing to do with the Celestials status, existence
and/or worry concerning the GF.
The story was written so a hero would stomp her. (Havok)
You sometimes think to linearly Zop and forget this is comics good friend.
Originally posted by zopzopCompare that to What If Secret Wars where Doom with SW Beyonder's power
AND the IG destroyed the Celestials BUT the IG was depowered and the Gems
were destroyed as a result AND Doom burnt out almost all of the Beyonder's power
and only had enough to reignite the Earth's core before the Beyonder's power was
completely spent too!
Originally posted by zopzopBut it did! The narration made it clear that Earth's heroes barely beat the
Beyonder and was sleeping within the Earth's core after the events of SW as it
pertained to THAT universe. Further proof is when he awaken he wanted to know
what had happened since he was imprisoned and sent out a warning to those that
opposed him that he was back :The GF possessed the sleeping Beyonder then slowly devoured him and his power.
Again,
No where on panel is the GF ever shown devouring him or his power.
No where on panel is that depicted artistically or stated.
After reviewing the material again I found I missed something and my truth was incomplete.
It actually was an alternate Beyonder from the Mutant X reality
that was destroyed by Strange and Earth's heroes,
but some of his essence remained in the corpse.
So you see, it was just the remaining remnants she was able to take over.
Strange even stated that the GF would at best be able to destroy the planet,
instead of all reality which it needed Havok's connection to the Nexus.
That's what he's referring to in that scan.
Originally posted by zopzopThis isn't necessarily true though Mr. M. During that What if Secret Wars with Dr.
Doom in it. He had both SWs Beyonder's power AND the IG and he went up
against the Celestials. After 407 years, the Celestials were destroyed but so was
the IG. It's power was depleted and the Gems were destroyed. Also Doom burnt
out almost all of the Beyonder's power and only had enough left to reignite the
Earth's core before his Beyonder power burnt out completely.And just like the Mutant X scenario, it only showed a handful of Celestials (a Host?)
fighting Doom then afterward saying that their race was killed. Some posters on
this forum were even arguing that Doom ONLY fought a Host for 407 years. I'm
sure you can find their posts if you wanted using Google.
Heck, the Beyonder from the Mutant X Earth was defeated & destroyed by the Planet's heroes.
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆You're asking the same question again friend, so I'll refer you to my other post.
GF, is still weaksauce. It did nothing special after it awakened,
it never threatened even the universe under its own power.Celestials not confronting the GF in its re-
emergence has nothing to do with the Celestials status, existence
and/or worry concerning the GF.The story was written so a hero would stomp her. (Havok)
You sometimes think to linearly Zop and forget this is comics good friend.
😐 That "What if" has nothing to do with this story.Yea Zop, I know the story well you ain't showing me anything new friend,
Again,
No where on panel is the GF ever shown devouring him or his power.No where on panel is that depicted artistically or stated.
After reviewing the material again I found I missed something and my truth was incomplete.
It actually was an alternate Beyonder from the Mutant X reality
by Strange and Earth's heroes,
that was [b]destroyed
but some of his essence remained in the corpse.So you see, it was just the remaining remnants she was able to take over.
Strange even stated that the GF would at best be able to destroy the planet,
instead of all reality which it needed Havok's connection to the Nexus.That's what he's referring to in that scan.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the Mutant X story.
Heck, the Beyonder from the Mutant X Earth was defeated & destroyed by the Planet's heroes. [/B]
I know the What If example I gave had nothing to do with the Mutant X story, I was just using it as an example because you said that the Celestials are almost always at the bottom of the cosmic food chain. Yet in at least one reality they wrecked the IG and almost all of SW Beyonder's power before being killed. The fact the GF was able to devastate their entire race in the Mutant X universe is a nice feat.
Regarding what Strange said about the GF only being able to destroy a planet, we know that's not true. Uatu of the Mutant X universe said he saw it devour galaxies.
Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.
That is why I put "destroyed" in quotations. It's still unclear as to what exactly Wanda's chaos magic did when she said "No more Phoenix".
I'm sure the White Hot Room still exists... and Jean should still be there as the WPotC, sitting her fat ass on the throne holding various universes in the palm of her hands or something...
But the Cuckoos did state that they sensed the Phoenix force being there one instant, and then suddenly blinking off. And immediately afterwards, the new mutant lights started popping up... so she did get rid of the Force itself in some way, or at least transformed it into mutations and awakened X-genes.
Originally posted by Glorificus
That is why I put "destroyed" in quotations. It's still unclear as to what exactly Wanda's chaos magic did when she said "No more Phoenix".I'm sure the White Hot Room still exists... and Jean should still be there as the WPotC, sitting her fat ass on the throne holding various universes in the palm of her hands or something...
But the Cuckoos did state that they sensed the Phoenix force being there one instant, and then suddenly blinking off. And immediately afterwards, the new mutant lights started popping up... so she did get rid of the Force itself in some way, or at least removed its presence from 616.
TomBrevoort 11h
Tom, I was confused by the ending of AvX, did saying "No More Phoenix" make the Phoenix just leave Earth, or did it destroy it? If its the latter, wouldn't destroying a universal force of creation and destruction be a bad thing?If it's the latter, I suppose we'll find out down the line.
Marvel forever trolling it's readers.
Originally posted by zopzop
Let's just agree to disagree here Mr. M.
Originally posted by zopzop
And it did threaten the universe under it's own power as stated by
Uatu of the Mutant X reality until it was contained by the Celestials
but not before it devastated their entire race.
Yet, when the GF re-emerged, it did absolutely nothing special,
didn't affect the universe, a galaxy,a star, a planet,
heck, not even a city.
Oh right, it hid itself in the corpse of a destroyed alternate Beyonder,
where only some of his essence remained.
A Beyonder defeated & destroyed by Earth bound heroes. 😂
Originally posted by zopzop
Nice find with that scan. But still like Strange said, there is SOME of
the Beyonder's essence in him and something far more dangerous.
Because it was never stated and/or depicted, plus the Beyonder was destroyed.
At best, that bitty remnant of his essence was consciousness NOT power,
which is why the GF was at first confused when it first took his corpse.
But make no mistake, that was never the actual Beyonder of that reality,
only his defeated/destroyed corpse:
[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486244_Bey3.jpg]
That Mutant X universe was only in danger if the GF could harness Havok' power source (Nexus)
Otherwise, it's a planetary power according to Strange.
Also, I'm not surprised the GF was more dangerous than that Beyonder.
GF was defeated but held its own against the Celestials of that reality,
while that Beyonder was stomped/killed by the planet's heroes.
Originally posted by zopzop
I know the What If example I gave had nothing to do with the Mutant X story, I was just using it as an example because you said that the Celestials are almost always at the bottom of the cosmic food chain. Yet in at least one reality they wrecked the IG and almost all of SW Beyonder's power before being killed. The fact the GF was able to devastate their entire race in the Mutant X universe is a nice feat.
Let me show you:
Alternate Beyonder: (getting killed by a 6 shooter pistol)
--------------------------------------------------------
Alternate Infinity Gauntlet: (needs to merge with Galactus' power just to re-create a single Planet)
--------------------------------------------------------
So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best.
We simply don't know where those Celestials stand next to 616 versions,
and unfortunately there's no reference of feats for us to at-least attempt at a categorization.
Originally posted by zopzop
Regarding what Strange said about the GF only being able to destroy a planet, we
know that's not true. Uatu of the Mutant X universe said he saw it devour galaxies.
On Panel, it was defeated twice by Havok, (with and without the Nexus)
On Panel, it never did anything significant, not even global, actually not even city-wide.
So, I'd go with Strange's view based on actual showings.
Although even he gives more credit than presented.
Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.
I really don't see where the implication came from that it was destroyed in the first place. It's stated by the Cuckoos that wasn't the case. The PF performed a very important action afterwards.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh?The Phoenix corrupts. Look at Jean/Cyclops etc. It might not be necessarily evil, but it's still corruption.
Are you evil when you step on an ant, for example.
I know but there are instances of the Phoenix "not" being evil...Jean, Hope etc..
That's why I asked because its either the person or the entity and it wouldn't make sense if the "entity" was evil due to the importance of the Phoenix.
Originally posted by carver9
I know but there are instances of the Phoenix "not" being evil...Jean, Hope etc..That's why I asked because its either the person or the entity and it wouldn't make sense if the "entity" was evil due to the importance of the Phoenix.
Honestly, Hope didn't really have it long enough to show us if it was going to corrupt her, and Jean...
Jean has rarely been shown as being a fully-powered Phoenix, and when she has, she's been Dark Phoenix more often than not. The White Crown is more an exception than the rule.
![[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486244_Bey3.jpg]](http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/13486244/Bey3.jpg.html){kind=link}
