The Goblin Queen vs The Scarlet Witch

Started by Galan0074 pages

Originally posted by Mr Master
So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best.
More times than not, I'd agree. However, the 'alternates' from Hickman's arc all seemed to be roughly equal to their 616 counterparts, imo. 616 Reed himself confirmed that even his alternates from the Council of Reeds possessed an intellect similar to (and in some cases greater than) his own:

...And considering it took Franklin (a high-level reality manipulator) preforming a final kamikaze attack to defeat Eson at the end, it definitely seems like the Mad Celestials were intended to be on par with their 616 counterparts as well, imo. But yeah, they are/were definitely hard to gauge... But then again, so are 616 Celestials, on average. /shrug

Originally posted by carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?

The Phoenix isn't evil, at all. The only reason the original Phoenix, Jean, went crazy, was because Mastermind of the Hellfire Club corrupted her. Before that she was just fine. Rachel Summers had the Phoenix for YEARS and she never went berserk. Giraud of Haven in the GotG universe had the Phoenix and likewise never went crazy.

The only reason why the P5 went berserk is they were NEVER meant to be the Phoenix's hosts. It was the Avengers' idiocy that caused it to be split into 5 pieces and enter unworthy and unchosen hosts.

Originally posted by Mr Master
🙂

So according to this Uatu, it threatened reality 1280,
but, it was defeated by the Celestials of said reality.

Yet, when the GF re-emerged, it did absolutely nothing special,
didn't affect the universe, a galaxy,a star, a planet,
heck, not even a city.

Oh right, it hid itself in the corpse of a destroyed alternate Beyonder,
where only some of his essence remained.

A Beyonder defeated & destroyed by Earth bound heroes. 😂

So you concede that the GF was not slowly devouring him & his power as you claimed?

Because it was never stated and/or depicted, plus the Beyonder was destroyed.
At best, that bitty remnant of his essence was consciousness NOT power,
which is why the GF was at first confused when it first took his corpse.

But make no mistake, that was never the actual Beyonder of that reality,
only his defeated/destroyed corpse:

[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13486244_Bey3.jpg]

That Mutant X universe was only in danger if the GF could harness Havok' power source (Nexus)
Otherwise, it's a planetary power according to Strange.

Also, I'm not surprised the GF was more dangerous than that Beyonder.
GF was defeated but held its own against the Celestials of that reality,
while that Beyonder was stomped/killed by the planet's heroes.

That's a matter of perspective Zop.

Let me show you:

Alternate Beyonder: (getting killed by a 6 shooter pistol)

--------------------------------------------------------

Alternate Infinity Gauntlet: (needs to merge with Galactus' power just to re-create a single Planet)


--------------------------------------------------------

So yes I agree, there are some "alternates" that give 616 cats a run for their money,
then there's the majority, which is comedy at worst, and mediocrity at best.

We simply don't know where those Celestials stand next to 616 versions,
and unfortunately there's no reference of feats for us to at-least attempt at a categorization.

Perhaps it was more powerful at its inception,
because if I had to put my money on someone's words, it'd be based on what the
GF was able or capable of when it actually appeared on panel.

On Panel, it was defeated twice by Havok, (with and without the Nexus)
On Panel, it never did anything significant, not even global, actually not even city-wide.

So, I'd go with Strange's view based on actual showings.
Although even he gives more credit than presented.


But that's the thing, there WAS some of the Beyonder's power in his body when the GF possessed and devoured it. It's even stated on panel :

The GF with the Beyonder's power, according to Strange, was MORE powerful than ever before and wanted to destroy ALL the time continuums and she had the power to do so, if she can get through Havok. The GF wanted the Nexus as a gate to enter other realities that's it.

Originally posted by zopzop

But that's the thing, there WAS some of the Beyonder's power in his
body when the GF possessed and devoured it. It's even stated on panel

"Some" ... cool, I agree.

Although, it says she merged, not devoured.
I also basically said the same thing,
I just missed that detail that the some included power.

Originally posted by zopzop

The GF with the Beyonder's power, according to Strange, was MORE
powerful than ever before and wanted to destroy ALL the time
continuums and she had the power to do so, if she can get through
Havok. The GF wanted the Nexus as a gate to enter other realities
that's it.

Meh, other than defeating some heroes, she didn't do anything special.

And as it is known by us both, without Havok's connection to the Nexus,
GF couldn't do jack to reality.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Scarlet Witch just recently "destroyed" the Phoenix Force and used it to create more mutants... which makes no sense since the Phoenix Force is the culmination of all life and all psionic energy in the universe... but whatevs.

It's still a hefty feat, albeit nebulous.


It was a shared feat with Hope .

This is the best thread that's popping up right now. Liking Mr. Masters and Zop debate.

Originally posted by carver9
Question. Does DARK Phoenix exist because of the person or is the Phoenix entity itself evil?

Originally the corruption of the Phoenix was a result of the tamperings of Hellfire Club with Jean's mindset . It exposed the Force to her dark human passions , which resulted in the creation of the Dark Phoenix persona .

The same with Scott I guess . His lack of preparation psychologically for wielding such power , along with constant pestering and provokation by the Avengers , finally sent him over the edge and caused the metamorphosis into DP .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Originally the corruption of the Phoenix was a result of the tamperings of Hellfire Club with Jean's mindset . It exposed the Force to her dark human passions , which resulted in the creation of the Dark Phoenix persona .

The same with Scott I guess . His lack of preparation psychologically for wielding such power , along with constant pestering and provokation by the Avengers , finally sent him over the edge and caused the metamorphosis into DP .

Aaaahhh, I remember this. Phoenix in Jean body witnessed new sensations which started the Dark Phoenix. Thanks for the post.